24 replies to this topic

[duke_Qa]

I haven't really heard any of this referendum coming up in Britain, so I figured I'd go ask here what its all about. I figured since its so under the radar it has to be something the old systems does not endorse.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/av

Whatever the result, it has the power of a defining moment

Basically it seems to be about reforming the basic way votes are counted and make it more troublesome for politicians in "safe" locations to coast on into power. Sounds pretty alright by me.

[Vortigern]

No, it's not alright. Basically, the system we have at the moment is shit, and this proposed system is slightly less shit, but a steaming horse turd. It's like being given a choice between herpes and gonorrhea.

First-past-the-post, our current system, works very simply: in one constituency (a geopolitical area, usually containing a population between 50 and 100 thousand people) everybody that can be bothered votes for their preferred party or candidate, and whoever gets the most votes in that constituency wins the seat for said constituency. All votes cast to any candidate other than the winner are discounted and utterly worthless.

The Alternative Vote system, which we're being offered, works slightly differently, but still provides much the same overall effect. When the votes come in, the candidate with the fewest votes is eliminated, and all those who voted for said candidate have their vote changed to their second choice, and so on until someone gets a majority. This makes it ever-so-slightly more likely that one of the fringe parties will win a seat, but only very marginally so. Really this system will change nothing while giving the illusion of progressive thinking, which is why we've been offered it. There's still no hint of proportional representation.

If anyone's interested, I have an alternative system which may or may not work much better than either of the options described above, but I'm really holding out for "will certainly be awesome and make everyone else's democracy look like a solid wall of dick". Description time:

The country is split up into approximately fifty regions, each serving a population of about 1-1.3 million. Each of these regions elects 25 Members of Parliament on a 5-year term, by direct proportional representation, so 4% for a seat in this regional government. For each one of the five years of this government, 5 MPs from each region go to be national government in Westminster, decided by lottery (so in Year 1, MPs 1-5 go to national parliament, in Year 2 MPs 6-10, and so on). For the other four years the 20 MPs not in national government act as local government, county council, that whole scale of governance. The executive branch is elected separately on seven-year flexible terms. The advantages here are 1) PR means better representative government, everybody knows this; 2) huge scaling back of bureaucracy, which, while it does necessitate a degree of unemployment, is better for the government and nation's overall welfare; 3) MPs don't just spend their whole time in their ivory towers in Westminster, consorting with the public when need be as so many of the higher-ups seem to do these days; 4) as the Prime Minister doesn't have a constituency, it doesn't get horrendously neglected; 5) every vote counts, unlike the two alternatives above; 6) unlike full-on PR, there's still a local link between the average person and the government, which many cite as one of the key advantages of FPTP.

I'd also switch up the House of Lords, by which I mean kick out all the lords; they have no business being in government. I'm sure there are some other advantages to my system that I haven't thought of or haven't remembered, but either way, I'd sure as hell vote for that.


Edit: Man, that's the longest post I've made in quite some time. Apparently I feel quite strongly about this issue.

[Ash]

Unfortunately your idea is too likely to upset the status quo. Which is why PR did not appear on the referendum, only a closed choice between AV and FPTP.


Needless to say, however, I will nonetheless be voting 'yes', purely because ANYTHING is better than FPTP, and all the bollocks from the 'no' campaign is purely that - bollocks.

[duke_Qa]

Up here every county's votes decides how many representatives they get in parliament, and if a party has over 4% they get access to the levelling seats which can drastically increase the number of seats they get access to(My party got squeezed badly in the last election and ended up on 3,6%, gaining only 2 seats in parliament out of 169, if they got 4%+, we would have gained 11, messing up the running governments majority).
Also rural areas gets bonus seats so that they don't get downprioritized by the cities, although the crowded places generally have plenty.

The group that feels they got enough votes to assemble a government ask the king for permission and go for that. Don't even need a majority in the parliament to build a government, but if the opposite parties are unable to cooperate it is usually the biggest group that gets the thumbs-up from the king. Although if they don't have a majority and no allies in the opposition it can take five minutes and a vote of distrust to kick them out.


Anyway, the system you got now seems sucky, filled with old buggers looking to keep things nice and easy for themselves. At least someone is trying to change things, and once you change something it usually gets easier to change things even more in a decade or two. But we'll see what happens in the west the next 3-6 years.

Edited by duke_Qa, 19 April 2011 - 09:33 AM.

[Puppeteer]

I will be voting yes, even though I'm not a fan of AV (or AV+, though that would have been better). A vote for yes is a vote for change. A vote for no is a vote to keep FPTP.
The BNP and Communist Party are voting no, because they want PR and view the AV as a distraction from true democracy. What they fail to grasp is that a no at this referendum is a no to political change for the next fifty years. The only way forward is a yes, regardless of whether you think AV is a superior system or mildly different.

[Ash]

Basically the same sentiments as Puppeteer, really.

I received a ballot paper for a local election today. The only three options were Labour, Tory and BNP.

So, either I vote for the cunts who fucked the country up, the cunts who are fucking the country up now, or a set of cunts who would fuck the country up while burning crosses as they do it.

So I wrote NONE OF THE ABOVE across my ballot paper, signed it and sent it back.

If nothing else, I take a bit of pleasure in using up the prepaid envelope.

[duke_Qa]

Whut, how can they get away with just putting three parties on a ballot paper? That sounds like a dickish move right there: Choose between the douchebags you've known for decades of the new douchebag that is the first douchebags boogieman.

[Elvenlord]

At least you guys get three

[Ash]

They can get away with it because those are the only three people who were running for that council. See, my area has always been a totally safe seat for Labour. Therefore they're always going to run safe in the knowledge that they're going to win.

The Tories basically have to run too - if only to argue the toss over whether water is wet. Even though there isn't a snowflake in hell's chance of them winning.

And the BNP are the only other party in with a remote shout. My town is a large ex-mining town with less than 1% ethnic minority population. Lots of old people in working men's clubs, lots of casual racism. The BNP always have a little stall out in the middle of the town centre (and the inevitable Unite Against Fascism - an opposition pressure group of people with really nothing better or more interesting to do with their lives - picket literally across the street with an objective known only to themselves).

I reckon the turnout will be very small - they always are. It's not like it's an MP by-election, just for council seats.

I see what you're saying, though. It isn't really a choice: It's presenting your anus to Edward Scissor-dick and being offered the option of one or two brands of lubricant.

[duke_Qa]

Heard this old song on the radio today, it is more fitting now than it used to be(fits well for the Arabs right now at least).

Yeah, old post-industrial towns usually are bitter old things. They've gotten used to getting things easy as long as they get hired somewhere, and then suddenly shit hits the fan when there's no more work to be had. I suspect this is the problem of our generation.

Now that you are an educated policeman, you could always use that authority to embrace the political life and raise some hell

[Ash]

Except we aren't allowed to be members of any political party.

The only politics that really matter to me are the ones concerning my fucking wages. Which are being raped at the moment. By Edward "Winsor Hutton" Scissor-dick.

[duke_Qa]

I recall there was a demonstration two years back in Oslo with over 2000 uniformed(usually not allowed to wear that outside work up here) policemen from all over the nation in the plaza outside the main union-building, protesting against low pay and negative reforms. It certainly got attention and I believe the cops got the raise they wanted.

Imagine the wtf-potential of a police VS police demonstration . It could certainly cause some havoc.

But yeah, I guess its quite common that active cops are not allowed to have political positions. Mixing power with ambition and all that.

[duke_Qa]

Also, I've discovered that up here police can be politicians as well, no problems apparently with that.

Anyway, wanted to bump this up again the day before the election. It seems the no side has more cash available to them, but lets hope for the best. Would the British really vote this down just to disown Clegg? It seems to idiotic I guess it could be possible.

[Nertea]

Canada just had an election using FPTP - result? Conservatives got a 55% majority with less than 40% of the popular vote...

[Vortigern]

This is, I think, our best example of why the system should change. That's the results of the 2005 general election.

Honestly, I have no idea when, or even if, we last had a government with a majority of votes rather than just seats. Anyway, Canada, we know how you feel.

[Puppeteer]

Just listening to Avantasia's Carry Me Over - what an appropriate appraisal of AV and lament for British democracy.

Never been told my prayers would be answered
Wherever I go, I see you around
Never been told that something that beautiful
Would bring me up to let me down

Waiting up on the roof
Waiting up in the rain
Just to catch a glimpse of your face

Even when you're around
Still I'm out of sight, out of sound
In your world I'm out of place

Carry me over
Carry me over
Carry me over now
Carry me over
Carry me over
Carry me over now

You're like a ghost that I can't let go
You follow every step that I take
Never thought someone could be too close to you
Now across the street is miles away

And now I might as well
Be the man on the moon
I am watching but you don't seem aware

But I won't be around
I'll be out of sight, out of sound
Someone's gonna wait, somewhere

Edited by Puppeteer, 06 May 2011 - 06:56 PM.

[Puppeteer]

AV Referendum results map

Fuck you Britain. Fuck. You.

[Phil]

Wait... the people voted against a plan to make their own representation fairer? How that can happen is beyond me.

That reminds me... I still need to vote on the 7 state-level referendums due for next weekend. Gotta love Swiss democracy.

[Puppeteer]

Wait... the people voted against a plan to make their own representation fairer? How that can happen is beyond me.

That reminds me... I still need to vote on the 7 state-level referendums due for next weekend. Gotta love Swiss democracy.

A nation of gullible fools. People get convinced by and adamantly stick to the first thing they hear. Even if Especially if it's wrong.
My only consolation - a small, insignificant but wonderful consolation - is that the Scottish Parliament, using PR, has established a Scottish National majority. Under FPTP, we only managed a paltry coalition.