48 replies to this topic

[Allathar]

Apathy, another of those trademark things of modern times.

Still, this won't just be the end of it. Sooner or later the fire's gonna start again.

[Ash]

The reason the fuel was crap this time is because it wasn't political - it was pure lawlessness and thuggery. Wait until the cuts really start to hit home and the UK economy plunges back into recession with unemployment skyrocketing and inflation really starting to hit the poor masses in the pocket.

Then we'll see some real fucking disorder. These riots are nothing compared to the Poll Tax riots of 1984. The people need some backbone, some unifying anger and some political stick in their craw. When that happens I'll get my overtime for sure. It'd be a licence to print money for me, just as it currently is for a few of my mates, one of whom was down basically for 9 days in London...and in a few days he's going back to cover the Nottinghill Carnival.

The bastard'll clear about five grand after tax.

[Námo]

The bastard'll clear about five grand after tax.

If I was British tax-payer, I wouldn't complain ... hope he's got a 'license to kill', too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-CIkakrZl64

[Ash]

Myeah, I can think of a shitton of people who earn far more yet deserve it decidedly less. These people generally wear suits and sit on fine green or red upholstery...or in very tall shiny buildings.

[Námo]

Speaking of jobs, just some simple questions on British unemployment:

Statistics has shown, that out of 1.8 million new jobs created during the Labour regime, a staggering 99% went to immigrants. Many jobs are today taken over by East European workers.

What became of Labour's pledge of 'British jobs for British workers' ? ... the Tory's promise of a cap on mass-immigration ?? ... and do Labour still follow Gordon Brown's rejection of the idea of an immigration quota, which in his opinion would 'do great damage to British business' ???

[Pasidon]

The issues of the east seem to mirror over here too. I always notice a pattern... lack of good jobs and burst of bad immigration come to people's minds as the top issues alot. Some nations have already fluxed into a population overload, though most will disagree. There's a reason why nature has carnivores... a single species can consume more resources than the earth can provide easily, and that's a critical issue... if not now, than soon. Or you have a situation like Mexico City... so many people are leaving their sweatshops, jobs are actually decreasing. Doesn't help that Carlos Slim... aka: numero' uno on the world's rich list... is hording almost every profit in Mexican telecommunications and not giving anything back. So when people horde money and overload population metropolises, its nearly impossible to make a good buck anymore. Revolts do nothing but waste taxpayer money... almost ironic.

[duke_Qa]

I liked this article about the scuttling gangs in Manchester back in the 1880s. It seems to be pretty close to what we see today, poor neighborhoods with little hope for the future raining violence upon each-other and sometimes the rest of society.

Scuttling in Manchester and Salford declined in the late 1890s. The demise of the gangs owed less to draconian policing and punishment than to a more forward-thinking response pioneered by former Guardian journalist Alexander Devine, a police court missionary (an early form of probation officer). His "working lads' club" for Hulme and Chorlton-on-Medlock, opened in 1887, inspired a generation of Mancunians and Salfordians to invest substantial amounts of both time and money in new facilities for education, training and recreation for youths in some of the poorest neighbourhoods in Britain. Sport was key to the clubs' appeal and, within a generation, lads from Ancoats, Salford and Hulme were more likely to take each other on at football, athletics or boxing than scuttling.

The clubs that flourished most and lasted longest were those that involved local people in their day-to-day running. One such club – Salford Lads' and Girls' Club – survives today as testament to Devine's faith in working with, rather than against, young people. Older residents elsewhere in Manchester point with regret to the closure of their local clubs when they talk about the lack of comparable facilities for their grandchildren. "There's nothing round here for kids today," one man told me recently as he showed me the sites of two former clubs each within 10 minutes' walk of his home in Ancoats. A police surveillance van passed by as we walked. I couldn't help but think that was the one thing targeted at young people in the streets once walked by scuttlers.

I still think immigration is a bad excuse for every wrong that has been done upon people. It might be a small percentage of the problem, but its very visible and sticks out like a sore thumb. And once over-population becomes a big problem, small excuses to put the blame on others will inflate.

Edited by duke_Qa, 22 August 2011 - 10:04 AM.

[Ash]

Speaking of jobs, just some simple questions on British unemployment:

Statistics has shown, that out of 1.8 million new jobs created during the Labour regime, a staggering 99% went to immigrants. Many jobs are today taken over by East European workers.

What became of Labour's pledge of 'British jobs for British workers' ? ... the Tory's promise of a cap on mass-immigration ?? ... and do Labour still follow Gordon Brown's rejection of the idea of an immigration quota, which in his opinion would 'do great damage to British business' ???

Labour never had that pledge. That's a BNP quote if ever there was one.

Chances are, much though I am loath to admit it, it probably would damage British business. Put it this way - would you employ someone who worked solidly and slavishly for the entire shift and soldier on and never go off sick, and is happy to be paid less, or would you employ a British guy who will likely shirk and slack here and there, is likely to throw on the sick for at least 2 weeks self-certified and expects more because he's British and expects to be paid more because our society is more economically powerful?

I know which I'd go for. I'd take the harder worker who'll accept a lower wage any day of the week.

The problem is, much though I think British people are generally paid piss-poor relative to the cost and standard of living in Britain, I also think many (not all, but many) British people are lazy. Yes, we might work more hours than any country in Europe but we're actually paid less than our equivalents on the Continent. We do, however, have a habit of stopping and yacking which you wouldn't be likely to get in the countries these economic migrants are coming from. They just have a work ethic that we don't have. I haven't yet taken into account the sheer plethora of dolists in this country, who would rather sit on their arse and do nothing (except maybe screw some poor old dear's house for her telly and her purse) than go out and earn an honest day's wage for an honest day's work.
And who can blame them? We have a society that panders to the underclass and offers no incentive (financial or otherwise) to trying to get off the dole. We have a society that pays people hearty sums of money to swing the lead and complain of anxiety disorders or depression. We have a society that gives money to those who decide to procreate. We have a society that will give housing to the workless but won't give any help whatsoever to those who work. We have a society where alcoholics and drug abusers are given additional money in addition to their treatment. What, pray, does any rational human being think they are going to do with the fucking money? Give it to charity? Use it to build a better life for their already-addicted toddler? We have a society that offers financial incentives to criminals to entice them to not break the law. Something that the rest of us have done all our lives and get nothing for.
And lastly, we have a society that will give even more to those who aren't from it, to entice them to come here to make up the difference.

There's your problem. Our broken, liberal government and our broken society. Not the immigrants making the most of a good thing. Hell, if France were offering similar benefits I daresay a lot of Brits would sploit that too.
Don't hate the player, hate the game. Oh, and also hate the Human Rights Act.

I liked this article about the scuttling gangs in Manchester back in the 1880s. It seems to be pretty close to what we see today, poor neighborhoods with little hope for the future raining violence upon each-other and sometimes the rest of society.

[text]

I still think immigration is a bad excuse for every wrong that has been done upon people. It might be a small percentage of the problem, but its very visible and sticks out like a sore thumb. And once over-population becomes a big problem, small excuses to put the blame on others will inflate.

Don't kid yourself, duke. That article you quoted basically acts as an endorsement for the untruth that is "rehabilitation works" and also "society causes people to commit crimes." No it doesn't, and no it doesn't. Incarceration works, because for however long they're in there they're not bothering anyone else or committing crimes or causing us grief. And being criminal scum causes people to commit crimes. People commit crimes because they're criminals. Yes they might be druggie fuckpigs who want to raise cash for their next score, but at the end of the day the fact they're druggie fuckpigs makes them a criminal. And they are committing a crime because they're a criminal. To fuel their criminality.

The best way to sort out scrotey youths like that (given that giving them youth clubs and activity organisers - the latter, of course, only being for the scrotey youths...good kids not allowed) is to knock the fuck out of them until they learn that there are severe consequences for their actions (and to see how they like it), and lock them up and punish them harshly so they realise that, to use an Americanism, this shit ain't gonna fly.

But we can't. Because of the Human Rights Act. That's why you should hate it.

[duke_Qa]

It seems we are entering a philosophical discussion, that is very close to the question of what came first of the chicken and the egg.

I whole-heartedly agree that there is a (small percentage) culture of lazy people with the "self-entitlement by birthright" living in Europe, and probably the rest of the world. There has been a hip-hop culture where the apex and meaning of of life is "gangster", at best rap-star. There are certainly youth out there that have never felt consequences from family or the law, becoming spoiled and expecting no resistance or reactions to their actions. They are empty shells of mediocrity, capable of living and existing because we have social support systems that does not force them to crawl on their bellies for survival.

But is that theirs or society's fault? I agree that there are thousands of hopeless kids out there that needs a total reprogramming, to be broken down and rebuilt from scratch. But they were broken by us in the first place. UK public school systems are not really known for their high quality, and college/uni is practically mandatory education to get an acceptable job in the West these days, and that costs like what, £9000 a year? Lack of job prospects and very few motivational figures are not exactly guiding lights to a meaningful life either.

The UK and the west created these criminals, through failing to provide them with, what was it someone(puppeteer?) said, "Education and job opportunities". It is too late for these people now, they have become a "lost generation", and they are all over Europe. They could have been "saved" with cheaper education and more jobs, but the West has been very good at hiking up the education costs while extracting all the menial jobs to Asia. Now they will be a pain in the ass until we find a way to suppress them/keep them out of trouble, and that could easily be imprisonment for now. I don't care much about those that go around pillaging our society, but I don't really blame them for getting into that situation/life in the first place.

Edited by duke_Qa, 22 August 2011 - 07:10 PM.