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"Forged Blades"


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#1 Nazgûl

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Posted 21 September 2011 - 01:27 AM

For years I have been contemplating about the so called "Forged Blades" in SEE. I have always found this upgrade to be rather silly, in comparison to Heavy Armor. The latter features texture upgrades and even model upgrades along with armor bonuses. This feels somewhat "realistic" as the faction could increase the quality of their armor as the faction gains more income. And visually it's easy to illustrate. But for the so called forged blades there's basically only the Draft of Peasants that look visually satisfying (as the actual weapon models shift from tools to swords). Doing this for all models is just something that wont happen, so therefore I have been thinking a lot about how to visualize an upgrade in weapons. However, how do you upgrade all them units that already come with swords, spears and axes? For men, elves and dwarves it feels rather odd that they'd go to war with some sort of second hand weapons and then suddenly someone re-smiths them with tougher blades.... nah! :tongevil:

So, I think I'm gonna rename all FB into "Fighting Skills"... "Battle Training"... "Melee Fighting", or something like that. We'd keep the damage bonus (since the unit would acquire better melee skills with this upgrade). The BC could function as a pre-req, so only lvl2 hordes could obtain this training, and the BC glow FX could be an indicator that light up when the horde has acquired the upgrade. A second option in name and concept would be "Horde Captain", and it would mean that the upgrade promotes the BC (which is pre-req) to captain, and with his leadership the horde increase in melee damage...

Forged Blades - Battle Training - Horde Captain >>> are all just names for the same thing, damage bonus. The point is to get rid of any possible use for the ugly FB glow along with the far fetched idea of wepons being somehoe "sharpened" :lol:

Thus all the old "star wars"-ish glow FX on wepons would go completely and we'd have a more "realistic" use of this button... ^_^

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#2 Gollum

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Posted 21 September 2011 - 02:28 AM

I like the idea. I believe that forged blades are something a little to far fetched even for a sci-fi/fantasy game as BFME. I think that the Battle Training would be awesome. Did you ever think of making it corresponding with the Heavy Armor also? This is what I'm thinking of. In Medieval times in order to become a Knight you had to go through training before you got all of your armor and weaponry and horses etc. etc. Well maybe for example (for Gondor Soldiers)you could have them come out with no upgrades like normally purchased. And then when you buy the battle training upgrade they become equipped with heavy armor and better strength defense and then get the ability to use battle stance. And maybe with each faction Battle Stance can offer different strengths. For Uruks it could offer +50% damage and -20% armor. For Gondor Soldiers/Pikemen it could offer +50% armor and -10% Speed? I don't know just a thought that popped into my head as I read your post
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#3 njm1983

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Posted 21 September 2011 - 02:36 AM

Naz I think you are on the right track.... dunno what id call it either. I think sticking to something along the lines of combat training or battle training is a good idea. The captain idea is my least favorite.

#4 njm1983

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Posted 21 September 2011 - 11:31 PM

Just thought up another possible name for the upgrade - "Weapon Proficiency" :D

#5 Gollum

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Posted 22 September 2011 - 03:30 AM

I think that could work
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#6 Nazgûl

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Posted 22 September 2011 - 10:20 AM

Ooh fancy word... :ninja: Perhaps too fancy? Don't want players needing a dictionary when playing SEE... :lol: We'll see what name sticks, but the idea will be implemented and all form of weapon glow will go (except Poison FX).

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#7 isledebananas

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Posted 01 November 2011 - 01:51 PM

It doesn't seem all that strange actually. The Forged Blades would mean the highest quality of weaponry that a faction can make or possesses. We have to remember that this is back in the day when making such high quality stuff took quite a considerable amount of time. The weapons had to be strong and durable, but also somewhat light and function-able meaning they may have all sorts of design qualities you don't get in the average stuff. In addition to that is the fact that the best weapons often required a significant amount of a rare ore. They wouldn't just bring out the good weapons for just anyone or any situation. The battles in the movies and books all recount pretty significant events, but the ones in the game are just mostly skirmishes. They wouldn't ship in or start making the best weapons for what is starting out as a small affair. The regular weapons would be good for fighting, but not what you want in a pretty significant battle.

The fighting skills in fact doesn't make as much sense as you think. You mentioned the peasants earlier and how only they have a significant change in their models when they get drafted. True they get actual weaponry, and that also makes them pretty much the only Good faction units who have little to no training with weapons. All the main fighting units of every Good faction would have had knowledge in warfare if not actual experience. If we recall the movie, both Boromir and Faramir have been leading Gondor's troops to battle just before the Council of Elrond. Also, Eomer and Theodred have been leading the warriors of Rohan against random Orcs, the Men of Dunland(more organized and dangerous in the books), and Saruman's growing forces. The Dwarven troops have experience most recently against Easterlings(small skirmishes), but many are veterans of the Battle of Five Armies and previous wars. The Elves well some of them have been around since The War of the Last Alliance. Furthermore, if you look at Gondor/Rohan very few of the able bodied men are not in the army at some capacity. I'm sure its somewhat similar for Dwarves and Elves as well though they are perhaps not active duty since they aren't as in constant conflict as the other two factions. So "training" doesn't really seem to be necessary as most of them seem to have that part down, but technology would be the issue.

You could go with something called Customized Armaments/Custom Blades. Most weapons are standard issue and are pretty uniform in all ways, but how each person fights is slightly different. Weapons might need slightly different weight, balancing, grip etc to aid the specific wielder. Even for more uniform factions like Gondor two similar looking swords could handle differently. This would work in that it gives an explanation for the difference in damage without making standard weaponry seem worthless as you saw it. Soldiers through experience would find out what their specific needs were the more they fought, and could ask Blacksmiths to make adjustments or forge new weapons to suit them. You could also make the upgrade give more damage as it levels up as better fighting troops would know their specific weapon needs better and be given the priority of better weapons since they are valuable veteran troops.

I do think the idea for making it an upgrade allowable only for ranked units is nice, plus changing the graphic for the upgrade from a glow. I know you suggested adding something to the rank area denoting the upgrade and I got an idea, but it would never work with lvl 1 units though but now since your thinking of changing it to rank 2 or higher I can suggest it. Why not simply change the color of the ranking symbols? The ranking symbols would start out say just plain grey or silver, and then after the upgrade turn gold for Good Factions and Red for Evil Factions. That or the tip of the banner could be the thing upgraded to have some sort of weapon at the top denoting the upgrade. For example the poll of the banner would get a spear tip at the top.

Edited by isledebananas, 01 November 2011 - 03:46 PM.


#8 Nazgûl

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Posted 04 November 2011 - 12:44 AM

You need to make your posts smaller or I go bananas ;)

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#9 isledebananas

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Posted 04 November 2011 - 04:37 AM

The main point is that "Fighting Skills" doesn't make as much sense as "Forged Blades". The only troops that come fresh out of the oven, Movie-wise, are most of the Evil troops. Good Factions Troops aren't just civilians who are given weapons and armor then sent to fight. The only people that happened to were the Rohan peasants and Gondor peasants in the books. Most other soldiers have had plenty of training plus some actual combat experience.

My solution for the graphic difference was the color of the ranking symbols. Go from one color to another color after getting the upgrade that way you can easily tell, and they don't have any lame glows on the units themselves. The rank symbols have to be there anyways a simple color change won't make much difference.

#10 Ridder Blauw

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Posted 04 November 2011 - 06:37 AM

By isle's logic, only fresh new troops should benefit from Forged Blades.
I'm in favor of doing the latter either way it goes. People in combat cant just get forged blades or combat training.

Edited by Ridder Blauw, 04 November 2011 - 06:39 AM.


#11 Nazgûl

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Posted 04 November 2011 - 10:59 AM

I'm leaing stongly towards the Captain idea, and having the BC act as squad leader. Nothing else makes any realistic sense anyways...

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#12 isledebananas

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Posted 05 November 2011 - 05:05 AM

Well certainly the swapping weapons takes a lot less time than some combat training program. If your saying that its unrealistic since "how do the weapons get to the troops?" then the same can be said for armor in fact its worse since armor is bigger and weighs more. You could have it that upgrades can only be done around a certain radius of the blacksmith structure. Furthermore have it train a unit to do the same out in the field if you really want to get realistic.

The reality part for different weapons can come in two ways. Better weapons are more expensive since they take more time to make and require far more rare materials. That most troops wouldn't get the best weapons is obvious. The fights in the game aren't the Last Alliance siege on Mordor itself. Of course in that battle will be the best weapons, but for some smaller battle troops wouldn't be given the best weapons. This would explain one way of getting better weapons.

The second way is that while standard weapons are similar people are different. Two people might need slightly different weapons to be better warriors. Things like balance, weight, and grip all make a difference to how a person can wield a sword even though those two swords might look similar to the eye. This would also be an explanation for why units get a damage boost since they get weapons better suited for the wielder.

If you get too realistic things will start not to make sense anymore. We will be wondering where does Gondor get stone for their buildings since they just have farms and blacksmiths for resource structures. So different weapons giving a damage bonus doesn't seem too outlandish to me, but combat training would since you can't just "give" someone combat training. Besides you could make that some kind of special spellbook power or upgrade for a specific faction.

#13 Ridder Blauw

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Posted 05 November 2011 - 08:58 AM

Gondor won't get a farm, it gets a Stonemasonary. Yeah I see your point, it's Naz's call.

#14 Lugdush

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Posted 05 November 2011 - 03:20 PM

So,if Forged Blades are gone,and Fire Arrows being made pretty much worthless,what things will be available at a Forge?Heavy Armor and Banner Carriers?Thats it?I have to say,if your looking for realism and u dont like how troops fighting in battle get forged blades,then it makes no sense how the Heavy Armor appears out of thin air either!I usually agree with Naz and RB,but I dont know about this one....

#15 njm1983

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Posted 05 November 2011 - 03:32 PM

I think everyone is just taking this a little too far, Hes just trying to find an alternative to forge blades - and people are coming in here and poking holes in his logic. Its still a game and there will be some game "magic" involved.

#16 Nazgûl

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Posted 06 November 2011 - 04:46 PM

word

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#17 Gollum

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Posted 07 November 2011 - 12:40 AM

I agree with naz. In real war people never got their blades forged but as they progressed in their ranks they got better armor aka Heavy armor his logic makes sense and frankly what he says goes
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#18 Elvenlord

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Posted 07 November 2011 - 01:02 AM

Yes they do, actually. Rank and file soldiers would get mass-produced blades, while officers and veterans could afford to buy their own personal, higher-quality blades.

That being said, it's Naz's thing. It he wants to do something else, more power to him.

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#19 Ridder Blauw

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Posted 07 November 2011 - 06:33 AM

Sorry Naz, I'm going with Elvenlord... We should get this settled.

Perhaps not have the stupid magic fx? Just a passive button... perhaps a skin?

#20 Nazgûl

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Posted 07 November 2011 - 11:10 AM

There will be NO "forged blades", end of discussion! It's stupid...

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