106 replies to this topic

[Beowulf]

Because that's the entire problem. People who are so lazy that they refuse to get a job should not be getting free money for doing nothing. It's a cheat on the system and part of the reason we're in the sorry shape we're in.

[Pasidon]

Yep. Its human nature to live as undisciplined as possible.

[Beowulf]

If that were actually true, we'd still be in the Dark Ages.

[duke_Qa]

I've been following OWS a little more lately and it's turning into something other than what it should be. Now it looks like hippies blocking businesses and people with no discernible reason. These people are pissing and shitting in the street, leaving trash and generally making things worse for themselves. And do you listen to them? Nobody knows what they're doing there anymore and they're all bitching about entitlements. Maybe I'm just being an asshole, but why don't these people shut the hell up and get a job?

Yeah, get a job, kiss ass to climb the ladder and follow the leader: Very democratic.
I am not surprised that things look a bit iffy from afar. These "hippies" have been used as strawmen since the Vietnam war for the general populace to look down upon. It wouldn't surprise me if half of them were professional strawmen, getting paid by conservative think-tanks to wander around these different demonstrations and events to make them as inedible for the general populace as possible. Sounds like a cheap alternative to getting kicked out of the money-vault.

Combined with local government's refusal to supply sanitation for OWS, I'm also not surprised that sanitation is turning into something of a problem that the media can paint a pretty picture of. That's what happen when you gather hundreds of people in a spot which is not designed for hundreds of people.

Why get a job when you can make as much money as possible, doing the least amount of work necessary?

As mentioned before, the people out there are actively spending their time and money on something "unproductive", they are losing out on potential cash for being a part of this event. So I don't see the logic of that argument.

And even in the case that this turns into America's Red October or something(doubt something as dramatic as that will happen but who knows), they would still have to work for their cash like everybody else.
I live in one of the more successful "socialistic regimes" and I can say that the people "leeching" off welfare are surprisingly immature and right-wing in their mentality. One might say that there are two fundamental beliefs that people can adopt in such a system(or any governmental system). There's the liberal "Help out the system because it helped us" angle and the "Only help me out because I'm special" angle that the lazy/immature and self-entitled adhere to.

I claim that average people with a socialistic and liberal attitude are more productive and create more wealth than those average Joe's with a more libertarian/conservative attitude.

Anyway, link to article by former banker, haven't read through it yet but it looks good enough.

[Námo]

I've been following OWS a little more lately and it's turning into something other than what it should be. Now it looks like hippies blocking businesses and people with no discernible reason. These people are pissing and shitting in the street, leaving trash and generally making things worse for themselves. And do you listen to them? Nobody knows what they're doing there anymore and they're all bitching about entitlements.

Agreed.

Although some actually try to get financial support for their projects in various ways:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEq5w2-6X14

Though most of the fleabaggers are just ranting (like Marx did, blame the Jews):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WLSvK2eIoBs

They sure could need a little indoctrination ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=My_cNzQGS8E

... on sanitation:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTj51RSRY8s

99% loonies left?

[duke_Qa]

Why am I not surprised you'd stay on that side of the fence

Yeah, its not easy keeping sanitation up if the people you are dissenting against are the ones who pay the people in charge of sanitation. Strange huh. Also, I would guess that the OWS gang has some modicum of self-administrated sanitation and garbage disposal that may have happened just after some of those pictures were taken. Also, if sanitation of an improvised demonstration is the only criticism the conservatives can come up with, I'd say the 99% have much more sensible politics than they do.

Sounds like something Marie Antoinette could say "He smells bad, so he must be wrong"

[Námo]

Why am I not surprised you'd stay on that side of the fence

Sorry, I simply don't take that "movement" serious, rallying just for the sake of protesting *something*. So I don't recognize any made-up "fence", neither do I take any "sides" ... You do.

As I once wrote in my signature: I refuse to be imprisoned in a world-view of only one dimension [i.e. right<>left].

[duke_Qa]

But you took the tea party movement seriously? I'd say there is a bias in the picture here, left right or whatever you define yourself as.
What is the worst that can happen if these people actually force the political train of thought onto a more progressive track? more body odor in the senate?

I take sides as long as the arguments are good. These are some of the best god-damned arguments I've seen in decades. Not taking sides would be cowardly.

[Námo]

But you took the tea party movement seriously?

Because the Tea Party movement opposes big government, aka crony capitalism / state corporatism.

An important difference is, that the Tea Party is organized bottom-up, the #Occupy [insert whatever you like] movement is organized top-down.

I take sides as long as the arguments are good. These are some of the best god-damned arguments I've seen in decades.

O'Really? Seriously, which arguments? ... those confused and conflicting arguments (or Christmas wishes) from the people in the streets?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wrPGoPFRUdc

... or those of the organizations staging these events: the Unions, SEIU, Community Organizers (former ACORN), Working Families Party and other far-left organizations connecting the dots (the New Party, Democratic Socialists of America, Tides, George Soros) to the DNC and the Obama administration:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jOxERtkwN4

The Working Families Party, an infamous ACORN front group notorious for corruption, was instrumental in organizing the Occupy Wall Street protests, according to radical journalist Laura Flanders of Free Speech TV.

The protests, which have spread to several other large U.S. cities, are part of what ACORN’s neo-communist founder Wade Rathke calls an “anti-banking jihad.”

Working Families Party (WFP) organizer Nelini Stamp has “been here since day one and she is part of the organizing team and the outreach team that has managed to bridge the distance between that first day and this day and between the grassroots folks here and the labor movement,” Flanders said at the protest in lower Manhattan.

[...]

One of the SEIU-funded party’s co-founders is ACORN’s former national chief organizer, Bertha Lewis. Democratic National Committee executive director Patrick Gaspard also contributed to the creation of the party and sat on its board. Gaspard was a political director in the Obama White House and is a former SEIU executive. Gaspard was also an organizer for the radical New Party in the early 1990s. That party’s membership consisted largely of individuals from the Democratic Socialists of America, SEIU, and ACORN. The party endorsed Barack Obama when he ran for the Illinois State Senate.

WFP takes credit for raising taxes both in the city and state of New York and for pressuring the state’s congressional delegation to oppose Social Security reforms. [...]

Working with its radical friends at SEIU, WFP advocates more government spending, higher taxes, universal government-run health care, campaign finance restrictions, free universal higher education, oppressive rent control, same-sex marriage, amnesty for illegal aliens, “greening” the economy by creating heavily subsidized union jobs in the energy sector, and mandatory paid sick leave for all workers.

In 2009 Connecticut WFP sent busloads of thugs to confront American International Group Inc. (AIG) executives at their homes. The protests were calculated to intimidate executives who had been receiving death threats after the company reportedly paid out bonuses using taxpayer bail-out funds.

Source: ACORN: Puppet Master of #OccupyWallSt

More info at BigGovernment: Category: Occupy Wall Street

The bottom line: The organizers of this "movement" supports neo-Keynesian economics: more government spending, higher taxes, more stimulus to the corporations, more bail-outs of Wall Street ... in short: Crony Socialism. They are deceiving the ordinary people joining these events, or in plain talk using them as "useful idiots". The question that remains: How long will it take before people realize that they are fooled?

Well, too much totalitarian ideology for my taste.

What is the worst that can happen if these people actually force the political train of thought onto a more progressive track?

Violence. ACORN and likeminded has shown a preference for that:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qlPY9AfQFqI

transcript, starting at 32 seconds into the video:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Occupy L.A. Speaker: “One of the speakers said the solution is nonviolent movement. No, my friend. I’ll give you two examples: French Revolution, and Indian so-called Revolution.

Gandhi, Gandhi today is, with respect to all of you, Gandhi today is a tumor that the ruling class is using constantly to mislead us. French Revolution made fundamental transformation. But it was bloody.

India, the result of Gandhi, is 600 million people living in maximum poverty.

So, ultimately, the bourgeoisie won’t go without violent means. Revolution! Yes, revolution that is led by the working class.

Long live revolution! Long live socialism!”

Crowd: [Cheers.]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Incredibly, he praises the massacres of the French Revolution’s Reign of Terror rather than Gandhi’s nonviolent philosophy.

And the crowd laps it up.

Every single day, more videos emerge from the Occupy movement showing people saying things that, if they had been said by a Tea Partier, would have been front-page news for weeks and discredited the movement forever. But since it’s the #OccupyWallSt movement, darlings of the MSM media and Democratic politicians, they get a pass.

... more body odor in the senate?

It certainly smells like hell of Coward-Piven.

[Námo]

... you might wonder if they are astroturfed as well. Getting paid for being a straw man doesn't sound too impossible

No wonder: some of the protesters are astroturfed.

They Don’t Want Jobs – They Want Revolution:

Marxists, union officials, Code Pink leaders, and far left loons held a rally against capitalism today at the Chamber of Commerce Headquarters in Washington DC. The protesters don’t like the kind of jobs created by Chamber of Commerce members in a free society.

A liberal organizer admitted to paying protesters to attend the protest:

A liberal organizer told the Daily Caller on Thursday afternoon that he paid some Hispanics to attend “Occupy DC” protests happening in the nation’s capital.

The DC attended the protest event, an expansion of the “Occupy Wall Street” movement that began in New York City. Some aspects of the protest, it turned out, are more Astroturf than grassroots.

One group of about ten Hispanic protesters marched behind a Caucasian individual from the DC Tenants Advocacy Coalition, a non-profit organization dedicated to supporting rent control in Washington, D.C.

Asked why they were there, some Hispanic protesters holding up English protest signs could not articulate what their signs said.

Interviewed in Spanish, the protesters told conflicting stories about how their group was organized. Some said it was organized at their church, and that they were there as volunteers. Others, however, referred to the man from the DC Tenants Advocacy Coalition — the only Caucasian in the group — as their “boss.”

Source: Organizer Admits to Paying Occupy DC Protesters

[duke_Qa]

Nice reply, going to take me some time to get through it.

Because the Tea Party movement opposes big government, aka crony capitalism / state corporatism.[1]

An important difference is, that the Tea Party is organized bottom-up, the #Occupy [insert whatever you like] movement is organized top-down.[2]

1.
The Tea Party was promptly hijacked by the Koch brothers, other organizations and politicians. Then re-aimed at crippling only the government's power to stop/order corporations to do as they say. They are indirectly the cause of the OWS events; because their freshly elected politicians have been so callous and corporation-oriented that the victims no longer accepted being victimized. Basically, OWS is the Tea Party but with a pro-government anti-corporation attitude, the only alternative that will be able to stop corporations.


Also, "opposes crony capitalism/state corporatism". That in my ears sounds like the rich people in government are the ones in charge of the corporations in the USA. Then they must have bought that political position. My perspective on the American political system is that the politicians can go with the flow or get tied up in the basement. it's not "by the people, for the people", it's: "Take money from corps to do as the corps say".

That's not how a government should be run, but governments are supposed to be our defense against corporations. Minimizing/throwing out the government would be like tearing down the brick house, because the wolf said that would make him stop huffing and puffing and go away if you did. How smart does that sound?


2.
OWS started exactly the same way as the Tea Party did, but probably with more tech-savvy people spreading the word. It might have been planned in the Canadian Adbusters organization, but you don't blame Franz Ferdinand for starting WW1.
We have seen symptoms of this for many decades now. The rally for Sanity and/or Fear from last year was one of the bigger ones. You could even say this is a evolution of the Tea Party movement: One that actually has aimed its guns at a problem that is actually a part of the problem.

It just hasn't been hijacked yet by interest organizations and I really hope that it doesn't get hijacked. Because the general sentiment in the air right now is much better than specific ones. If this one withers out, it can explode back the instant the economy gets just a fraction worse, which is highly likely.

O'Really? Seriously, which arguments? ... those confused and conflicting arguments (or Christmas wishes) from the people in the streets?

That's the beauty of it. There are no general consensus about what's the main argument, but people know there is a big problem and are coming out in mass to demonstrate against it, primarily wall street and bankers and corporations. Trying to put one person on the street in charge would break the meaning of it, so finding a lunatic to interview is useless.

The closest I've been to a quick summary of the demands is This blog. Yet that is also just generic demands trying to hit the sentiment. Once you start going very specific about something, you get problems because people will start disagreeing right away. There are plenty of articles that try to capture this sentiment around. Al Jazeera has a good page, Truth-out is another one. I haven't checked out the OWS journal yet but here's a link to the OWS library which contains them.

The Class Warfare The Rich don't Understand

[...]When you have everyone from students to airline pilots looking to the same institutions as the source of their woes, it's time to take a look in the mirror (or a position in pitchforks.)

Is this a class war? Yes, probably. And it's one of those really long wars, the kind that goes on forever. But in this latest battle, there's little doubt who fired the first shot. When the financial crisis hit, the Masters of the Universe evaded responsibility and defiantly demanded more sacrifice from their victims. They enlisted their favoured politicians to hold the people hostage and then complained about being unloved despite their crimes. They have won all the early skirmishes - but the people are gathering their forces and starting to fight back.

"The top 1 per cent have the best houses, the best educations, the best doctors, and the best lifestyles, but there is one thing that money doesn't seem to have bought: an understanding that their fate is bound up with how the other 99 per cent live Throughout history, this is something that the top 1 per cent eventually do learn. Too Late."

More info at BigGovernment: Category: Occupy Wall Street

The bottom line: The organizers of this "movement" supports neo-Keynesian economics: more government spending, higher taxes, more stimulus to the corporations, more bail-outs of Wall Street ... in short: Crony Socialism. They are deceiving the ordinary people joining these events, or in plain talk using them as "useful idiots". The question that remains: How long will it take before people realize that they are fooled?

Well, too much totalitarian ideology for my taste.

http://en.wikipedia....gGovernment.com
Basically this Breibart is a tea-party commentator. Can't expect much but the Tea Party angle from him, and the Tea party gets paid to be anti-government pro corporation. So yeah.

Neo-keynesian huh. Wonder how that works out in the long run, maybe it works better than the system we have now?

More bailouts for wall-street is one thing that would not happen in a proper system where the government gets to hold the corporation's balls in their vice. Those corps that come running to a strong government in such a system would not be given cash for idiocy, and if they attempted taking the nation hostage they'd get fired and replaced by better men than them.

Crony socialism, what the hell is that? Socialism is very generally about helping the grassroot, not helping the elite. Rich-idiot socialism might be more precise, but that's what I'd call Cronyism.

Violence. ACORN and likeminded has shown a preference for that

[...]

Every single day, more videos emerge from the Occupy movement showing people saying things that, if they had been said by a Tea Partier, would have been front-page news for weeks and discredited the movement forever. But since it's the #OccupyWallSt movement, darlings of the MSM media and Democratic politicians, they get a pass.

That's like forbidding modding of games because someone found "hot-coffee" in a GTA game. It is also easy to selectively pick your enemies when there's so many of them. Plenty of TPs around with idiotic and fascistic opinions as well.

A liberal organizer told the Daily Caller on Thursday afternoon that he paid some Hispanics to attend "Occupy DC" protests happening in the nation's capital.

Would like to hear more from this "liberal organizer". Actually, I don't. I rather would hear about conservative organizers with support from real corporate money. I'd find that more believable.
But I digress. There are probably bad eggs on this side as well, but that does not invalidate the general sentiment that we have going on here. If it did that article would have been the end of the entire movement, which seems to be going strong.

Wall Street Protesters wants all voices heard


To sum things up, OWS is starting to hit close to home on the global problems we in the West are facing. We might have democracy but if we let the corporations run freely and reap our nations for its wealth, there will be nothing left to vote over but scraps. Nations can't thrive without money, and if we allow the Corporations to take all the money without giving anything back, we become slaves.

Edited by duke_Qa, 13 October 2011 - 12:14 PM.

[Beowulf]

Yeah, get a job, kiss ass to climb the ladder and follow the leader: Very democratic.

What's the big deal about having a job? Why is that such a bullshit idea to some people?

I am not surprised that things look a bit iffy from afar.

They look iffy because... it is entirely iffy.

These "hippies" have been used as strawmen since the Vietnam war for the general populace to look down upon.

The hippies did it to themselves by opposing everything the United States does, by opposing anything related to actually making money and just by opposing really stupid bullshit. Hippies comprise a wide spectrum of morons and it's not relegated to the people "protesting" on Wall Street, if you can even call it protesting. The more I've read, the more it sounds like most of them are just dick college kids who have no idea what they're opposing or why they oppose it.

Combined with local government's refusal to supply sanitation for OWS, I'm also not surprised that sanitation is turning into something of a problem that the media can paint a pretty picture of. That's what happen when you gather hundreds of people in a spot which is not designed for hundreds of people.

The government has absolutely no obligation to protesters. None whatsoever so it doesn't surprise me one bit. And, to be honest, I don't believe the government should provide a damn thing. These people are there of their own free will and they have to deal with the consequences of their actions, or inaction as the case may be.

I claim that average people with a socialistic and liberal attitude are more productive and create more wealth than those average Joe's with a more libertarian/conservative attitude.

I disagree. I don't support the conservative point of view, but I don't see them, or libertarian, as any less effective at creating wealth or being productive.

[duke_Qa]

What's the big deal about having a job? Why is that such a bullshit idea to some people?

Well it's awesome to have a job where you feel you are contributing to something and you can safely voice your concerns for your workplace and society in general. "if you are not willing to do your job for free, you must find a new one[1]".

Something else entirely if you are working under a sword of Damocles that will fall if you don't sycophant it up to your local manager, join any union or become a politician fighting for causes unpopular with your "masters".

And a third possibility, you have those that just look for a job to earn as much as possible for as little work as possible. That is a unhealthy philosophy in a global economy such as ours, be you a poor dimwit on the floor, or a fifth generation upper class twit who inherited a bank CEO position from you father.

Think of Immanuel Kant's first formulation, which goes something like "if you want to do something that might be morally wrong, consider if you would find it positive if the entire world did it too". Right now I'd say that if every person on this globe was extremely interested in working as little as possible for the largest amount of cash possible, it would indirectly cause the collapse of civilization as money can be hoarded and would ultimately dry up.

They look iffy because... it is entirely iffy.

Many things are iffy, why do you personally consider this situation iffy? I consider the generic criticism they've raised some of the most precise attacks on the flaws of our system have had since the 70s. We've had dozens of small-scale economic tremors since that time, Thatcher, Yuppies, dotcom etc etc, and we have just kept on going anyway, at higher speeds even. That's what I call iffy. "Once burned twice shy" seems to be ignored because the burning happens to the masses and not the elite.

The hippies did it to themselves by opposing everything the United States does, by opposing anything related to actually making money and just by opposing really stupid bullshit. Hippies comprise a wide spectrum of morons and it's not relegated to the people "protesting" on Wall Street, if you can even call it protesting. The more I've read, the more it sounds like most of them are just dick college kids who have no idea what they're opposing or why they oppose it.

Not that this is primarily about hippies, defining these people as generic hippies would be a battle lost, as that name has too much baggage and has served its purpose back in the day. Also, "hippies" did do more than smoke weed and party hard, the 1968 counter-culture revolution(which if you were without you'd probably be dancing to swing and your wife would have gone to housewife school and all that jazz), the anti-Vietnam sentiment with critical media coverage and so forth. I suspect your image of hippies is unfair towards the few things they actually did manage to get through.

"Every generation needs a new revolution" as Thomas Jefferson said. Don't point back at previous attempts and say its futile, that's just defeatist. That applies to every problem we meet in life and not just these events.

The government has absolutely no obligation to protesters. None whatsoever so it doesn't surprise me one bit. And, to be honest, I don't believe the government should provide a damn thing. These people are there of their own free will and they have to deal with the consequences of their actions, or inaction as the case may be.

If this was a demonstration the corps and money-holders approved of, there would be sanitation support there 3 days ahead of the demonstrations. Why the discrimination?
Speaking of which, it seems the park-owners wants to do their yearly cleaning today. AJE article about the cleanup. [edit: seems to have been postponed, at least someone knows what bad PR is]
Also, if the demonstrators funded their own portable toilets, I heavily doubt the government would allow them to deploy them there. It seems from the news that they are doing their best on their own and not turning the place into a pigsty on purpose.

Naomi Klein reported a little earlier: After cops raided Occupy San Francisco and tossed their stuff in the dump, garbage workers returned it to the protesters, saying 'We are 99 % too'"

That's heartwarming really. Even if the OWS gets shut down today, I think that would only increase the activity in the others, and the OWS would just boot up again somewhere else.

I disagree. I don't support the conservative point of view, but I don't see them, or libertarian, as any less effective at creating wealth or being productive.

It depends on how you define wealth I guess. But I believe people are more willing to do a good job and share with others if they feel they get good returns on their contribution. If you are a rogue working with thieves, you reap what you sow.

There are limits to how much we as a individual are able to do on our own, and if we have a culture of trust and camaraderie, it becomes much easier to increase production instead of increasing defenses. How much money would you lose if your product had to be transported over a hostile wasteland filled with local barbarians and private bridge keepers demanding toll for using their private infrastructure?

This BBC article mentions something about the American dream which is interesting(it also contains some critical voices from the other side if you were looking for that. I try to be fair in my coverage at times ).

"Merit enhances prospects for mobility, but it's still about beating the odds. Some people do break through the system on the basis of merit, luck, or other sorts of non-merit ways," he says, while others may be very deserving and still come up short. "There's a disconnect between how people perceive how the system works and how it actually works," he says.
"But it's so ambiguous - as long as there's some chance to start out, go from rags to riches, then the presumption is that if it can occur at all, it can occur for anybody."

The American Dream/Meritocracy is a noble idea and I respect that attitude. It is a positive force that really can help you get out of whatever mire you are in and supports social mobility. But as mentioned above, its a bit like winning the lottery: And the odds have certainly become worse the last 30 years. Back in the day you could live the American dream in Chicago building cars, earning a fine wage and supporting your life in whichever direction you wanted to. Alas, when the trickle of money have dried up, wage increase has stagnated and jobs have been outsourced, the American dream becomes more distant and hard for people to realize.

And once an entire nation starts getting that "thin, like butter scraped out over too much bread" feeling, things become very bad. You get a national psychological depression, where people feel they are powerless and have to be careful with their money. Which again hits the economy because nobody is spending the money they are earning. Which causes more economic problems, which causes more psychological stress and so forth.

Cutting public funding of welfare and healthcare is the exact opposite medicine in such a situation, because it causes more trauma and keeps the negative spiral going. The only answer is to refocus the purpose of the nation and take action against the systemic flaws that have allowed such a situation to rise.

The best solution for America today is to increase the import tariffs so that local American firms can can compete and the deficit of running the nation can be neutralized. The capitalists scream at such arguments, But they have to pay for upkeep just as anyone else. There are probably many other things that need to be fixed as well, but that would at least fix the economy.



Edit: Another thing I wished to say.
In a system where you have public banking that supports small to medium firms (like mentioned in this article about the German banking system/the German economic miracle of postWW2), it is much easier to achieve that "American dream". Once you don't have to fight with private entities that are only interested in their own bottom line to get funding, you can spend your firm's surplus on itself instead of those that actively suck you dry on the private side. Taxes you can at least expect to give you something back, abusive private banks are not interested in your company's well being.


edit2: thing exploded, thank god i had a backup. these walls of text are not easy to create/maintain

Edited by duke_Qa, 14 October 2011 - 12:53 PM.

[duke_Qa]

*Walks slowly away from wall of text balanced like a house of cards*

[Námo]

#OccupyMainStreet

[Námo]

Breaking News:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HN-vkbCRing

Those OWS e-mails that Breitbart mentions in the end of the clip has been released today:

from BigGovernment: 'Crowdsource' This: Emails Expose #OccupyWallStreet Conspiracy To 'Destablize' Global Markets, Governments

We’re in this for the long haul. There are no “solutions” that can be presented quickly to make us go away. And so there will be moments where our presence is no longer an uncomfortable and unknown variable, but rather is normalized and integrated. It’s in those moments that we have to push the envelop [sic], pry open the space of possibility even farther. We go as far as we can to destabalize [sic], but maintain momentum. And when that’s the new “normal” then we go farther. That’s how change happens, how we shift the terrain and the terms of the game.

- Email in “Occupy” archive, “Re: Can OWS be turned into a Democratic Party Movement?”; Wednesday, October 12, 2011

In keeping with the new media notion of crowdsourcing–enthusiastically embraced by the mainstream media when trawling through Sarah Palin’s emails–Big Government will be providing readers later today with links to a document drop consisting of thousands of emails.

The email archive, created by a private cyber security researcher, appears to contain messages shared by the left’s anarcho-socialist activists during the strategic and daily tactical planning of the “Occupy Wall Street” and broader “Occupy” campaign this fall.

Big Government received a tip about the existence of the archive, and we were able to contact the individual who compiled and posted it. He will describe the archive, and how he obtained the emails, later this morning exclusively on Big Government.

Through “crowdsourcing,” the media and the public will then be able to discover the truth behind the “Occupy” movement.

[example]

Per the 8800+ pages of emails (3900+ emails), the Occupy movement has been in the works for some time. Its leaders apparently intend for it to broaden out and intertwine with the Days of Rage global initiative, which is set to begin on Saturday, October 15th. They also intend the demonstrations to continue indefinitely ...

[example]

The true purpose of the Occupy movement appears to be further economic and governmental destabilization, at a time when the world is already facing major financial and political challenges. By embracing the Occupy movement, President Barack Obama, the Democrat Party, and their union allies may be supporting an effort to harm both the domestic and global economies; to create social unrest throughout the democratic world; and to embrace other radical causes, including the anti-Israel movement. Ironically, the emails suggest that the President and the Democrat Party may soon find their friends in the Occupy movement to be a political burden ...

[example]

The email exchanges in the archive begin on September 14th, 2011 and continue through this week.

Later this morning, readers will be able to read the emails for themselves–and the mainstream media will be forced to confront the truth behind the Occupy movement, including its links to socialist, anarchist, and possibly even jihadist organizations.

Brandon Darby, a former left-wing activist, will be following up in the coming days with his own analysis and interpretation of select email exchanges. After Hurricane Katrina, Darby became alienated by his former comrades’ anti-Americanism and propensity for violence, and became an FBI informant. In that role, he was essential to the prevention of a planned Molotov cocktail attack on the 2008 Republican National Convention. Darby is in a unique position to understand the key players and tactics behind the “Occupy” movement, and to help derail the left’s pursuit of broader global destabilization.

Edited by Námo, 14 October 2011 - 10:31 PM.

[Námo]

Crowdsourcing the OWS Emails

from BigGovernment: The Email Archive Of The #OccupyWallStreet Movement: Anarchists, Socialists, Jihadists, Unions, Democrats

On August 10, 2011, the hacker group “Anonymous” announced that it would join the Occupy Wall Street demonstrations. That’s what sparked my interest in monitoring #OccupyWallStreet.

I reached out to a colleague and asked if he would be interested in studying the protest with me. At first, it seemed disorganized, and we believed it would only be a few hundred protestors.

As we engaged in monitoring its growth, we recruited other people to help us begin the collection of data available via social media. We began mapping out key players, and monitored Anonymous’s efforts to organize protests in the San Francisco Bay area public transportation system (#opBART) in order to detect patterns and key influencers.

Then, at the end of August, we were alerted by a fellow researcher that information about USDoR (U.S. Day of Rage, to which Occupy Wall Street is connected) had been posted on Shamuk and Al-Jahad, two Al-Qaeda recruitment sites. We began to take the “Occupy” protest more seriously, and dedicated more time to research and monitoring.

Days later, Anonymous announced that it would be releasing its new DDOS (Distributed Denial of Service) tool. Because of the Al-Qaeda posting, we contacted the New York Field Office of the FBI so they could investigate the potential threat. From that point on, we decided we needed to include the Human Element of Intelligence (HUMINT), and to infiltrate the protestors to map their ties to Anonymous, and to the postings on Shamuk and Al-Jahad.

A few of us had attended several of the pre-protest meet-ups and training classes. The Civil Disobedience training was taught by Elliot “Smokey” Madison, a New York-based anarchist who is a member of the People’s Law Collective, a voluntary group that advises protesters on legal issues arising from their actions. The Media training was taught by Vlad Teichberg, a New York based anarchist who is a member of the Glass Bead Collective, an artistic activist group.

After attending these meetings and socializing with those present, several of our team members were added to all the mailing lists of the “Occupy” group. That is how we created the email archive that we are sharing with you (see below). In addition to the involvement of socialists, anarchists, and other radicals, the emails also reveal heavy union involvement from the beginning of the “Occupy” movement, as well as discussion about the role of the Democratic Party, and how the movement should respond to President Barack Obama.

The emails also reveal that the Occupation attempted to provoke the New York Police Department prior to some of the clashes that occurred with activists.

Additionally, the emails reveal the many failed efforts of the hacker collective Anonymous. If those efforts had succeeded, they may have damaged the global economy.

[Some examples]

We are sharing the email archive because we believe the public needs to know the hidden agendas behind the Occupation–the socialist, anarchist, and other agendas that have not been reported in the mainstream media.

[Email archive download links]

[Námo]

Follow the money:

Yeah, get a job, kiss ass to climb the ladder and follow the leader: Very democratic.

What about a job occupying Wall Street and playing follow my leader?

... the New York-based Working Families Party is hiring and paying for people to do”direct action” ...

The WFP is seeking immediate hires.

You must be an energetic communicator, with a passion for social and economic justice.

Only outgoing, articulate dedicated, determined candidates will be considered for the positions.

For those candidates that qualify WFP offers substantial paid-training provided by senior leadership, on varied issues such as: advocacy, public speaking, mobilizing, fundraising, networking and organizing. We invest in passionate people with excellent communication skills and a full benefits package is offered to those candidates that qualify. In addition, there is opportunity for advancement and travel to our satellite chapters and out of state affiliates.

This is not a policy job! Through direct action you will be shaping NY state politics for the next 20 years.

“Direct action” is street protesting, pretty much. They’re paying $350 $650 per week ...

Source: Sure, the Occupy Wall Street Movement is Totally Grassroots ...

Remember this 'protester' from WFP:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jOxERtkwN4

[Námo]

#Occupy and Anti-Semitism #2, #3 ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMjm4LxFa1c

Interviewer: “Name and affiliation?”

Occupy Los Angeles protester: “Patricia McAllister, I’m here representing myself but I do work for the Los Angeles Unified School District. I think that the Zionist Jews who are running these big banks and our Federal Reserve — which is not run by the federal government — they need to be run out of this country.”

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iurg7A6MKH0

See also PJ Tatler: More Anti-Semitism at Occupy Los Angeles

[duke_Qa]

(1)What about a job occupying Wall Street and playing follow my leader?
[...]
(2)Source: Sure, the Occupy Wall Street Movement is Totally Grassroots ...

1.
And this was never done by anyone else in the human history? Again you find individuals and specific events that look bad on their own. No big surprise and not a good argument.
Everyone else is doing it, might as well do it and try to change society for the better.

2.
Just as every christian is a saint and can raise the dead and forgive all sins.
Without organization this thing would have died weeks ago, hell, it probably wouldn't even have started. Read the first occupied wall street journal, they have a transparency article in it about who planned this and who started planning it. I'd love to see all those backers of right-wing demonstrations do the same, but they won't because they know it would be unpopular with 95% of the population and cause economic losses.

As Colbert says "Reality has a well known liberal bias". These people are pointing out the reality and that it is not working well, and get painted as liberals/marxists/whatnot because of it. What happened to proper counter-arguments? Are there none?

#Occupy and Anti-Semitism #2, #3 ...
[...]
Occupy Los Angeles protester: "Patricia McAllister, I'm here representing myself but I do work for the Los Angeles Unified School District. I think that the Zionist Jews who are running these big banks and our Federal Reserve — which is not run by the federal government — they need to be run out of this country."

That's just as silly as saying Muslims are trying to take over the world and so forth. Throwing anti-semitism around is the oldest trick in the book.

I Like the top comment on that last video on youtube. "Jews being racist to Jews. How is that antisemitism?". It's easy to go in there with an agenda, troll in front of cameras and give the demonstrations a bad face. Individual vs total again.

6/100k Americans gets murdered by other Americans every year, does that mean that they are unforgivable monsters that have no hope for salvation or something?

Edited by duke_Qa, 15 October 2011 - 05:36 PM.