36 replies to this topic

[Sauron's eyes and ears]

I have been thinking about this for a while and have had a great idea:
make orcs less powerful, easier to kill but have loads more in a horde!
More epic, still balanced and more like orcs!

Edited by Sauron's eyes and ears, 15 October 2011 - 09:43 AM.

[Lü Bu]

I always thought this is good idea i totaly agree

[Ganon]

I would agree with this idea, but I'm pretty sure they already grant as little EXP as possible.

So even if you weaken them to balance it out. Any enemy they go up against would simply gain too much EXP from farming them.

[Sauron's eyes and ears]

That could also be lowered more... I mean from 1 to 0.1 [I don't think thats what it actualy is but as an example].

Edited by Sauron's eyes and ears, 16 October 2011 - 11:44 AM.

[Gollum]

I would disagree and agree with this. Sarumans orcs are rabble and not very good fighters as we see from the regular orc pit 1st level orcs. Now Saurons Orcs are a different question they are powerful and are great in numbers So I think the Orcs are fine the way they are

[Nazgûl]

Yeah, I don't see all orcs or orcs in general as weak (like goblins), but rather average to even pretty good fighters for some (like mordor's better troops (called Morannon Orcs in SEE), even if a single orc would rarely pose a threat to a good human fighter.

[Sauron's eyes and ears]

Yes sarumans ork should be week and basic mordor orcs should be as well whereas Morannon Orcs should be stronger but not as strong as, for example, a bacic Gondor soldier. so you should get more of them so 1 horde of orcs = 1 batalion of Gondor soldiers to kill them.

Edited by Sauron's eyes and ears, 20 October 2011 - 04:50 PM.

[Gollum]

I dont think that would work out. Mordor orcs are yes powerful in numbers but 1 horde can kill 1 horde of gondor soldiers no matter the size since they are already equal. Orcs destroyed the troops in Minas tirith because of their fighting ability and numbers. Orcs are strong no matter what people think they are Saurons Primary military unit and Minas Tirith would have fallen to the Orcs if it wasnt for Aragorn and the AOD. I think Orcs are fine the way they are and with the name that you have I would think you'd want orcs to be better

[ElessartheHigh]

The mod is enoughly well balanced as it is , plus it would make some factions too overpowered . Although I'm not against a great goblin batallion , like 20 or 25 . But not for Mordor , they are pretty strong and are as strong as humans .

Edited by ElessartheHigh, 19 October 2011 - 08:21 AM.

[Sauron's eyes and ears]

I dont think that would work out. Mordor orcs are yes powerful in numbers but 1 horde can kill 1 horde of gondor soldiers no matter the size since they are already equal. Orcs destroyed the troops in Minas tirith because of their fighting ability and numbers. Orcs are strong no matter what people think they are Saurons Primary military unit and Minas Tirith would have fallen to the Orcs if it wasnt for Aragorn and the AOD. I think Orcs are fine the way they are and with the name that you have I would think you'd want orcs to be better

I do want orcs to be better but better in the way of more orcish.

The way I see it, it all comes down to whether Nazgul want's to be more acruate to the books, or the films.

In the books alot of orcs are weaker (they blamed all the dead orcs at the tower of Cirth Ungol on 1 elf warior I think, but if this was in the game Mordor would not stand much of a chance(unfortunatly!), this is why I want more of them but weaker.)and the army of the dead don't come to Minas Tirith, only to destroy the naval renforcements from the south.

[Ridder Blauw]

Nazgul is going the Movies over Books route, not because he hates the books, just because he loves how PJ implemented LOTR in the movies.

[Námo]

Important semantic hairsplitting: is it now orkish or orcish??

[Gollum]

Its orC not ork it can be both but its normally spelled orC. Heres the thing Sauron Eyes and Ears, Orcs are powerful I don't care what you say Orcs are the MAIN melee unit of Mordor. In the High-elven tongue Quenya, the word for "Orc" was urco, plural urqui, meaning "bogey", or "bogeyman", that is, something that provokes fear. Now something that inspires fear in an Elf (arguably the best fighters in middle earth) Seems to me to be something Quite powerful and strong. The fact that the orcs blamed the killings at Cirith Ungol on an Elf Warrior on the loose does NOT prove that they are weak but more that they aren't all the sharpest tools in the shed. Peter Jackson is a genius but his first adaptation of orcs was to make the Uruk Hai look stronger and I know you're saying that Orcs should have more numbers but you're wrong. The reason the orcs are so large in numbers is because they've been around since the time of Morgoth which is the time of the Silmarillion about what 2-3 thousand years before the war of the ring give or take? Orcs are fine the way they are if anything orcs should be morepowerful and menacing. take a look at these pictures shows the orcs pretty menacing and the pretty powerful orc that looks like Darth Maul Getting ready to bite out the Jugular of a Gondor soldier.

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Edited by Gollum, 20 October 2011 - 04:09 AM.

[Ridder Blauw]

To be precise it's more like 5-6 millenia untill the War of the Ring comes along, the War of the Last Alliance comes around 2 millenia after Morgoth.

[Ganon]

Heres the thing Sauron Eyes and Ears, Orcs are powerful I don't care what you say Orcs are the MAIN melee unit of Mordor. In the High-elven tongue Quenya, the word for "Orc" was urco, plural urqui, meaning "bogey", or "bogeyman", that is, something that provokes fear. Now something that inspires fear in an Elf (arguably the best fighters in middle earth) Seems to me to be something Quite powerful and strong.

Not necessarily. There are other things aside from pure strength that can invoke fear.

Edited by Ganon, 20 October 2011 - 06:12 AM.

[Námo]

In the High-elven tongue Quenya, the word for "Orc" was urco, plural urqui, meaning "bogey", or "bogeyman", that is, something that provokes fear. Now something that inspires fear in an Elf (arguably the best fighters in middle earth) Seems to me to be something Quite powerful and strong.

Your reference to Quenya does not support your argument, please see this post.

Tolkien never made any clear distinctions between Goblins, Orcs or to some degree Uruks. However, in his last writings he made it very clear that Orcs were 'corruptions' of Men, and that no other solutions concerning their origin were possible.

So, in relation to modding, there exist a fair degree of artistic freedom for interpretating the Orcs and their variations, without violating the lore.

Edited by Námo, 21 October 2011 - 07:44 PM.

[Nazgûl]

Thanks everyone for your input. Do remember though that Mordor is "my" faction and indeed, like my protégé RB said I will put special attention to this faction, once more. We will have several orc tribes and I will also make sure that some of them carry themselves in more menacing postures (Black uruks and the awesome Morannon Orcs) to look more buff and vicious. And yes, the movies will always be my main inspiration.

[Námo]

... the movies will always be my main inspiration.

Yes, the movies were unearthly beautiful made, not the least because the were extremely well researched, and rather true to Tolkiens writings.

About the only thing that Peter Jackson really screwed up, was the way Orcs were created. EA made that even worse with their ridiculus and totally unrealistic orc-pit.

Orcs did breed by copulating, and were live born, like men:

... Orcs reproduced in the same manner as other races (and therefore that there were female Orcs). This is explicitly discussed in Text X of "Myths Transformed", which states that

Men could under the domination of Morgoth or his agents in a few generations be reduced almost to the Orc-level of mind and habits; and then they would or could be made to mate with Orcs, producing new breeds, often larger and more cunning.

The role of female Orcs in their society is not at all clear.

from Myths transformed, section X: Orcs:

We may assume, then, that the idea of breeding the Orcs came from Melkor [...] The details of this accomplishment of his wickedness were, however, left mainly to the subleties of Sauron. In that case the conception in mind of the Orcs may go far back into the night of Melkor's thought, though the beginning of their actual breeding must await the awakening of Men.

When Melkor was made captive, Sauron escaped and lay hid in Middle-earth; and it can in this way be understood how the breeding of Orcs (no doubt already begun) went on with increasing speed during the age when the Noldor dwelt in Aman; so that they returned to Middle-earth they found it already infested with this plague, to the torment of all who dwelt there, Elves or Men or Dwarves.

in a note immediately following above text Christopher Tolkien writes:

This then, as it may appear, was my father's final view of the question [on the origin of Orcs]: Orcs were bred from Men, and if "the conception in mind of the Orcs may go far back into the night of Melkor's thought" it was Sauron who, during the ages of Melkor's captivity in Aman, brought into being the black armies that were available to his Master when he returned.

Whatever the details of their origins, all evidence indicates that like all Orcs, Saruman's Uruk-hai were bred "naturally" by mating humanoid creatures who then bore live young. The real questions are whether it was Sauron or Saruman who planned that breeding, and what stock they were bred from.

As for Saruman, it is well established that he conducted a breeding program crossing Orcs (quite possibly Uruks) with humans. Immediately following the quotation from Morgoth's Ring cited in question III.B.14 (Text X of "Myths Transformed") which describes Morgoth's technique of mating Orcs with Men, Tolkien says that

There is no doubt that long afterwards, in the Third Age, Saruman rediscovered this, or learned of it in lore, and in his lust for mastery committed this, his wickedest deed: the interbreeding of Orcs and Men, producing both Men-orcs large and cunning, and Orc-men treacherous and vile.

While this is the only explicit statement of Saruman's deeds, there are numerous comments in LotR about Orclike Men and Manlike Orcs associated with Isengard. The most direct comments come from the chapter "Treebeard", where Treebeard ponders Saruman's Orcs:

For these Isengarders are more like wicked Men. It is a mark of evil things that came in the Great Darkness that they cannot abide the Sun, but Saruman's Orcs can endure it, even if they hate it. I wonder what he has done? Are they Men he has ruined, or has he blended the races of Orcs and Men? That would be a black evil!

It could be fun to SEE a few orc-women too ... they might even be more frightful looking than the usual suspects.