5 replies to this topic

[FlyingDeath]

Heyho, i played with my Brother Remix again, and i have to say that the Tech gen (Laser) has some pretty ugly balanceprobs...

First, the Generalpoint for faster research is USELESS, instead of giving you a faster tech, it slows your T2 and T3 (course the upgrade at the commandcenter has the SAME requirements as T1, but doesnt provide T1, so you have a T0,75 in the half time of T1, but then you have to research T1... that delays T2 and doesnt really help... except you REALLY need the Microwave tech like 30 secs earlier)

My suggestion:
Make this Upgrade INSTANT and let it be buyable AFTER you promoted it (no Warfactory requirement) so you could build the T0,75 and or T1 Units early but dont delay the Tier Research

Second: Tech has NO POSSIBLE WAY TO CLEAN RADIATION... this means, if you get hit by a Nuke, youre screwed, all your Dozers die, and you cant rebuild any, only thing you could do, is buy Vehicles if you have gravsleds and/or buy Helis... this means, if you fight agains Nuke with like a handfull of Berthas and some Retaliators, youre pretty much screwed if you get some Radiation (course Planes die on the airfield/Infantry dies/Dozer are dying and the only defense left can be shut down/Nuked away... this pretty much cripples you...)

My Suggestion: Just give him a "Medic" sort of unit that clears this... its anoying to be crippled by some early nuklear or toxic weapons course you cant do a thing against this... and look on the balance of the Grav sleds, seems they seem to IGNORE Radiation and Toxic dmg, wich pretty much gives him a large power on his Tanks...

Third: Particle itself seems REALLY weak
The Particleshot defence is too much singletarget burst... i mean, it is WAY to strong vs a single tank, but WAY to weak vs a SWARM of tanks, wich pretty much makes you spam this thing... wich pretty much destroys any tanks coming (way to offbalanced... if you have a few of them, to weak, if you spam them, to strong) same on the Particle Tank and the ... Osiris was it? On the other hand, you cant buls Omegacannons/Defense if you arent rank 3 and use 1 Point for it, whis limits this tree even more... it gives you a Medium Anti-Tank Atillerie thingy... wich i dont really like... especilly after he has very Crappy Anti infantry if he doesnt use Microwave and no help against Toxin/Radiation (See point 2) without Grav sleds, wich limits him to 1 (or 2 with Tech skilled on rank 5) Open tech on an GREATER map to have a good based Defense (the last point is mostly taken by Laser, course the Pulsefirelaser is GREAT vs tanks, and the Anti Rocket Mithril is a VERY GOOD AA Support) so, you couldnt even imagine to take Particle before youre rank 5 (in which, ION Overpoweres Particle in ANY Matter) i just cant find a REALLY GOOD position were you should take Particle on an 4 player all vs all... except, there are 3 Tankgenerals as opponent...^^

fourd: He lacks of an good early Anti-Artillerie... except this PArticle thingy... wich is better off bursting tanks... or shootin on infantry or something.... (im not sure, but mine mostly does this sort of thing, and gives the enemy artillery 1 to 2 free shots, wich often leads to 1 or 2 missing defense positions)

Five:... LOONG list^^
He even lacks of an Scouting ability (dont know if Sattelite gives you a good one, but he COULD use something like a Radarscan or such even if he is FORCED to build anti all (wich means: Laser, Grav, Microwave... not essentially in that order... ^^) in an 4 man free for all or higher (in an 3 man free for all, he could just try to counter theyre strengths, like vs Infantry and Tank gen, Micro and Lazer... then he would have a free techpoint for Sattelite... dont know... have to try Sattelite more....^^)

Six:his Teleport seems OP, yet weak, wich means, he can EASYLY warp in like... 200 Tanks in the enemys base, wich is EXTREMLY Much to handle at the same time, BUT can ONLY warp his Standart Anti-Tank Tank... so he has like NO air or Infantry defense with this port...
while i LOVE the port to Retreat from an attack to defend my base (wich is REALLY Great) or attack AFTER defending with my tanks and some Support units, it seems not right to be able to port TANKS in the enemy base, while not be able to port lighter support units... also it seems not right to port them were you want to port them... dont know... this whole teleport thing is HARD to script and balance... perhaps you could try to make this T-Port with some support units aswell, or you COULD give the Standart tank "Overlord like" upgrades (like you give them an AA Pulselaser/Microwaveaddon/Scoutupgrade with anti stealth/Warpupgrade for like 300$ IF you have the required tech)... perhaps you could even make a WARP Tank with All purpose missiles (wich would fix the NO chance factor if the enemy spams Helis^^) so this Warp-Tank can only build with this upgrade and is an medium Rocket tank wich is strong agains Aircraft/Vehicles/Tanks/Builings at CLOSE range... so you actually HAVE to use the T-Port to have them effective, but EVERYONE can counter them with Infantry due to there low Health/Armor... that would fix most of the balance probs i think, course if the enemy knows that you try to ambush him with these, he just needs the SAME ammount of Rocket infantry to defeat your ambush... wich is more cost efficient...)

Six point two^^: His Teleport Supperweapons seems a bit off, cant you change the behavior of it? i mean, you have like 3 seconds to puch units in 10steps... means 10 in one click, wich involves: Clicking the units and sending them in the superweapon waiting for units, then clicking the shiny blue ball in enemy base, deploy units... this is a bit slow... and you cant upgrade the wormhole device to generate money/Defend itself course of the buttons... perhaps, it could be more like a gateway thing, so you can ONLY send in units, if the Weapon is fired (Blue ball) and then EVERY Unit send in, is getting warped to the point (so no more clicking than selecting army, and sendin in) then you could "Nerf" the damage a bit and therefore give it more lenght (so it is MORE of an Portal, than an OMG, Destroy the half base and Drop like 15 Strong tanks with fire support to destroy the other half...)

just my thoughts on Lazer/Tech gen (and NO i NEVER will call him "Research"...^^)

Greetz from Germany: Flyingdeath

PS: Sry for wall of text and the Spell-Errors... its like i know WHAT to wright, but not HOW to wright it correct... wish i could it better, but im only a stupid german with probs at grammar (even if i wright german^^)

[ApOcOlYpS]

First, the Generalpoint for faster research is USELESS, instead of giving you a faster tech, it slows your T2 and T3 (course the upgrade at the commandcenter has the SAME requirements as T1, but doesnt provide T1, so you have a T0,75 in the half time of T1, but then you have to research T1... that delays T2 and doesnt really help... except you REALLY need the Microwave tech like 30 secs earlier)

Actually as is it's decent. First you need the prototype fielding power to get the later powers in that tree (especially the $4000 money drop which is VERY helpful for tech general). In addition, it works as a tech escalation in some sense. Normally you cannot take 3 technologies until you are at global escalation, but with the prototype lab you can have all 3 at escalation 2 (very useful if you aren't using ion or shielding, which normally I don't. Particle, pulse lasers and any of the other earlier ones are my usual upgrades). And not having to wait for that global upgrade is amazing.

My Suggestion: Just give him a "Medic" sort of unit that clears this... its anoying to be crippled by some early nuklear or toxic weapons course you cant do a thing against this... and look on the balance of the Grav sleds, seems they seem to IGNORE Radiation and Toxic dmg, wich pretty much gives him a large power on his Tanks...

On the other hand, a nuclear missile will be the only thing to coat your base in radiation. It's still a problem I'll agree with that, but I rarely find myself building medic units as any faction because it's so easy to just move out of radiation fields. Also, grav sleds aren't too amazing, so I personally can accept that upgrade allowing tanks to ignore radiation and toxins. I barely use them as is because they take a slot away from more aggressive technologies.

Third: Particle itself seems REALLY weak

Ahaha...yea...right. Sorry, but I toned down the rate of fire on the light particle tank because it was enormously imbalanced. A large tank army (20 something battlemasters, 20ish overlord variants, some other light tanks and a heavy command tank) lost to 8 of them. I couldn't get a shot off because they were killing tanks before they could get in range! There is no way particle is underpowered, especially if you get annihilator weapons. So like you said, they're too powerful in a group (hence, tone them down). Think of them like anti-tank artillery, because that's basically what they are. They are artillery designed to kill tanks (rather than just bombarding an area). They pay by not being capable against infantry or aircraft, and you need a tech upgrade to unlock them. They're still extremely powerful in small groups against tanks.

especilly after he has very Crappy Anti infantry if he doesnt use Microwave

Actually his standard car with the machine gun is quite good against infantry. In addition you could get plasma for anti infantry as it causes a good area of damage. The heavy plasma turret is a fun defense too.

especilly after he has very Crappy Anti infantry if he doesnt use Microwave and no help against Toxin/Radiation (See point 2) without Grav sleds, wich limits him to 1 (or 2 with Tech skilled on rank 5) Open tech on an GREATER map to have a good based Defense

Try plasma, particle and pulse lasers. Gives you very good anti-air, anti-tank and anti-group (infantry). The machine gun car works very well early game, and the missile defense is capable (though tends to miss). If you have prototype fielding it's very easy to get these techs. Then two more powers to get the $4000 drop, three into the laser strike, one into annihilator weapons and the other two for plasma barrage. VERY powerful especially before the tweaks I've made. Radiation and toxins don't damage you fast enough for them to be a true worry.

He lacks of an good early Anti-Artillerie... except this PArticle thingy

Particle isn't really early game. If you get prototype fielding you can get the laser raptors in T0. The laser commanches need a boost I agree though, and with some more damage they become good anti-artillery units for early game. The "shu" tank also has the wrong weapon in 0.9 (in my opinion) which makes it such a poor vehicle. But again, you're underestimating that machine gun car. Artillery has very little armor, and the machine gun car (in sets of 2 or so) can rip through them quite quickly.

He even lacks of an Scouting ability

Tanks can build spy drones, and you can build radar vans from your command center. If you want a scan power, get the radar tech. If you are willing to spend 4 generals points, you can make it scan and reveal stealth in a very large area AND call down 6 satellite strikes in that area EVERY MINUTE. It really needs to be toned down (3 strikes at most even for the 3rd rank), but I haven't found how to do that yet. Plus the units you get for satellite tech are quite good (though I wouldn't use the strike caller without the range increase, which is a shame).

his Teleport seems OP, yet weak, wich means, he can EASYLY warp in like... 200 Tanks in the enemys base, wich is EXTREMLY Much to handle at the same time, BUT can ONLY warp his Standart Anti-Tank Tank... so he has like NO air or Infantry defense with this port...

The isis battle tanks can be armed with HE missiles, which kill infantry quite well. But this is mainly balanced by the tournament mode limit. If you only have one war factory, you're not going to spend it just pumping out isis tanks. In addition, it requires a generals point and I'm pretty sure you have to jump the tanks individually, which slows you down. And any good general should have some units that can quickly move to save his base from an attack, especially if they have helicopters. I've never bothered with the teleport ability though. It's a good harassment thing, but once you know it's coming it isn't too great. Don't use it as your main attack, but more as a distraction (have a main force at the front, and then teleport a few tanks to kill supply centers/power plants)



Oh...and I feel ion was pretty useless. Doesn't do enough damage to heavy tanks and the Osiris doesn't have a lot of health for its cost. Didn't even seem spectacular against light things either. Capable, but not amazing. I gave it a nice boost to area of effect because I thought it'd be funny.

Edited by ApOcOlYpS, 29 January 2012 - 07:34 AM.

[Pendaelose]

I think Apoc covered that pretty well, not much for me to add. I was planning to add an early game artillery unit though. I wanted to build one with the medium chassis and high angle turret on top.

[ApOcOlYpS]

I thought the "shu" car was meant as early artillery: It was a hybrid between artillery and anti-air, and was miserable at both since it did jet_missile damage (aricraft take 25%, defenses take like 10% or something). In my tweaking I changed it to explosive, upped the damage and reload time so they can take out fighters and buildings quite well, as well as any ground unit that doesn't move. I did explosive so it'd work well against aircraft and defenses, but had to up the damage so that they could effectively kill aircraft (I think 2 of them should kill any fighter with one volley each, which is standard). To make sure they weren't overpowered against defenses I upped the reload time. They're actually pretty effective with that.

Of course, that's only in the version I have. And let me know if you want the file, and the change log is in the new blood thread but I can send that to you too. Although I think the Iroquois needs a little nerfing...

Edited by ApOcOlYpS, 31 January 2012 - 06:04 PM.

[FlyingDeath]

Actually as is it's decent. First you need the prototype fielding power to get the later powers in that tree (especially the $4000 money drop which is VERY helpful for tech general). In addition, it works as a tech escalation in some sense. Normally you cannot take 3 technologies until you are at global escalation, but with the prototype lab you can have all 3 at escalation 2 (very useful if you aren't using ion or shielding, which normally I don't. Particle, pulse lasers and any of the other earlier ones are my usual upgrades). And not having to wait for that global upgrade is amazing.

mhh... i dont know... i never tried if it gives you a free tech, so it felt like i can chose 1 of 2 (instead 4) techs early, only to be able to pick the other 2 later... if you arent building 2 commandcenters...

On the other hand, a nuclear missile will be the only thing to coat your base in radiation. It's still a problem I'll agree with that, but I rarely find myself building medic units as any faction because it's so easy to just move out of radiation fields.

if your enemy "Snipes" your dozer with some Air while attacking you, he would just need 1 single Radiation/Toxin field in front of your Commandcenter/Supplydock to Cripple you for a short time, course every new build dozer will die (he doesnt even need to destroy all dozers, it is crippling enough if your dozers got a bit dezimined and you cant rebuild any) espeacilly if he has some "Spamable" Toxin or Nuke (Nukebombtruck, Nuklears Artillerie (semi super), All china vehicles after Nuklear reactor, Most Toxin units) so this gen is mostly crippled against this...

A large tank army (20 something battlemasters, 20ish overlord variants, some other light tanks and a heavy command tank) lost to 8 of them

the problem is, for the defence, if you dont Spam this defence, it will be just OVERWHELMED by the enemy... while the tanks are too strong in groups... thats what i meant, the ONLY thing you seem to get for this point, is 1 Unit (and an upgrade for the Osiris), as the defence seems underpowered if not spammed, and the Anhilator needs a Generalpoint... and dont talk about the particle cannon, in my beliefs it is the weakest Super in generals, and even the buffs didnt made it that strong in remix... it is good to "Snipe" some buildings and or Unitgroups, but most Supers can do this too, while destroying mostly everything around the target aswell... so i personally think, this point is "weaker" then others, course it mostly gives you 1 unit... wich is antitank only... i think for that purpose (anti tank artillerie) fits Plasma way better (whis does Splash too) and that is why i think Particle just dont cut it...

Actually his standard car with the machine gun is quite good against infantry. In addition you could get plasma for anti infantry as it causes a good area of damage. The heavy plasma turret is a fun defense too.

the problem is that these feel quite weak, as they are "Light" vehicles and Rocket infantry can tear through them like nothing (and Infantry is MORE Cost efficient than these, i think... have to test them more though...)

Try plasma, particle and pulse lasers. Gives you very good anti-air, anti-tank and anti-group (infantry). The machine gun car works very well early game, and the missile defense is capable (though tends to miss). If you have prototype fielding it's very easy to get these techs. Then two more powers to get the $4000 drop, three into the laser strike, one into annihilator weapons and the other two for plasma barrage. VERY powerful especially before the tweaks I've made. Radiation and toxins don't damage you fast enough for them to be a true worry.

have to try that, but i dont really like the Prototype fielding, as i really like to get shield tech for my Heavy tanks (which is quite powerfull if you upgrade it 2 times, most units and defence seem useless against his tanks...)

Particle isn't really early game. If you get prototype fielding you can get the laser raptors in T0. The laser commanches need a boost I agree though, and with some more damage they become good anti-artillery units for early game. The "shu" tank also has the wrong weapon in 0.9 (in my opinion) which makes it such a poor vehicle. But again, you're underestimating that machine gun car. Artillery has very little armor, and the machine gun car (in sets of 2 or so) can rip through them quite quickly.

Only problem is, that the Artillerie is mostly gouarded by units who rip through my Vehicles very quickly, wich makes them not soo good anti artilerie... the commanche is really to weak and the raptor, i mean, with prototype fielding you get them like.... 30 secs earlyier... not that much time in compare to T1... so he just has 0 defense vs artillerie (except Commanche, if you buff him)

Tanks can build spy drones, and you can build radar vans from your command center. If you want a scan power, get the radar tech. If you are willing to spend 4 generals points, you can make it scan and reveal stealth in a very large area AND call down 6 satellite strikes in that area EVERY MINUTE. It really needs to be toned down (3 strikes at most even for the 3rd rank), but I haven't found how to do that yet. Plus the units you get for satellite tech are quite good (though I wouldn't use the strike caller without the range increase, which is a shame).

i feel like he should have a Spydrone or Radarscan power like... every other gen i think... i mean, the destealth and the ability to scan multiple times in a short time sound nice on Radar-tree, but it feels not right, to be limited to take the tech if you want to have ANY Scoutability except units...

The isis battle tanks can be armed with HE missiles, which kill infantry quite well. But this is mainly balanced by the tournament mode limit. If you only have one war factory, you're not going to spend it just pumping out isis tanks. In addition, it requires a generals point and I'm pretty sure you have to jump the tanks individually, which slows you down.

nope, you can send them all by 1 Click... ok, 3 cklicks... Select, select ability, use... but that doesnt slows anything down... yet, if you use them correct, like attack with them from 1 direction, then port them to the other side of your enemys base, he will have problems to defend against this (dont know ANY Unit with that MUCH Movement...) only weakness of this ability so far: ALL Tanks spawn at the same spot, so like 3 Artillerie units can kill your whole army, if you port them wrong (wich happens if you cant scan there...)
i mean, if you would change the general point to: "Unlocks Warp-tank" and give this tank a buildlimit of like.... 10, then you could make this tank upgradeable by the techchoices to have a strong, high mobile tankforce whith which you can attack and harrass an enemy, and retreat with teleport to your base if you need it (if another enemy is attacking or something) or you could use them to defend and attack the enemy from within, it should just be a like T2 Strong vs All tank with buildlimit... and Techupgrades (i mean, this tank could get like a maximum of 3 upgrades afterwards, so the baddest thing to happen would be like Pulselazer/Shield/Microwave so it could do strong damage against all Units and have this insane shield... otherthings would be Particle/Ion/Plasma as Artillerie thing and Radar to make it destealth with a large sight radius and or give it an ability to stealth it for a short time/while not firing) than you would have a unit that feels like the tech gen, can fill ALL purposes if you Research it right.

and... for that teleport thing, the hardest thing i did was, attacking with like 50 Tanks with some Support army (AA and anti Infantry), and then, after my brother send his Army to defend, port ALL TANKS in HIS BASE and destroy it, sure, my Support Army lost against his army, but he lost most of his base in a short time (had grouped the tanks up in 4 groups and ported them alsmost simutanely in 4 different spots of his base... were like 8 to 15 clicks to destroy him) i mean, in groups of 10 to 20 they can easyli rip throug some buildings, and 4 of these groups... you get the point...

and for tournament mode, let the Warfactory push tanks while defending with Infantry, Commanches and Laser-Turrets... then research Gravsleds after rank 3, and port ALL tanks in the enemy base... this can EASYLY turn the whole battle... but needs an opponent who isnt going agressiv- "All-In"... though with a good micro you should be able to handle your opponent just with Helis, Infantry and turrets...

I think Apoc covered that pretty well, not much for me to add. I was planning to add an early game artillery unit though. I wanted to build one with the medium chassis and high angle turret on top.

that would help him much, would apreciate that^^
would be awesome if you could upgrade that artillerie with plasma or Ion later on (after researching these techs)

Greetz from Germany: Flyingdeath

[ApOcOlYpS]

mhh... i dont know... i never tried if it gives you a free tech, so it felt like i can chose 1 of 2 (instead 4) techs early, only to be able to pick the other 2 later... if you arent building 2 commandcenters...

It does. Normally you can choose one tech at each tech level (1 at level 1, 2 at level 2, and a third at level 3). With the prototype lab it's improved by one (1 at level 0, 2 at level 1, 3 at level 2).

if your enemy "Snipes" your dozer with some Air while attacking you, he would just need 1 single Radiation/Toxin field in front of your Commandcenter/Supplydock to Cripple you for a short time, course every new build dozer will die

I think acids are the only thing with that kind of power (radiation and poisons shouldn't kill dozers that quickly unless you're GLA). And besides, why didn't you have anti-air, especially with access to the Mithrail? You're pretty safe from being shut down by radiation or poisons, unless your opponent has nerve agents and toxin seeders, but that's incredibly unlikely to work.

the defence seems underpowered if not spammed

You clearly don't use patriot missiles for Super Weapons or Airforce. They are extremely poor against all targets, and far outclassed by just about anything else. The particle defense is hardly poor. No, it does not kill groups of tanks, but it shouldn't. Hardly would be any fun if you only needed one to defend yourself.
As for plasma, it's short range so particle outclasses it there, plus doesn't do nearly as much anti-tank damage. Particle is amazing for taking out heavy tanks, and is in no way an underpowered tech. I'm convinced it's one of the must have upgrades (or at least very near so).

the problem is that these feel quite weak

That's because they're cars that cost around $225, with decent weapons. You can just as easily get the Isis for near double the cost, and that can survive a bomb truck. However, I did feel the cars were slow and were being hit by infantry too much, so I say they should have technical speeds (which I did, and I think works fine since they're about as tough as a technical).

i mean, with prototype fielding you get them like.... 30 secs earlyier... not that much time in compare to T1

Ah...um...I play at $10000 starting resources, so the $1000 LESS that prototype fielding costs than a tech upgrade is actually pretty significant. And again, try the machine gun car as anti-artillery. It should work pretty well.

i feel like he should have a Spydrone or Radarscan power like... every other gen i think...

I don't think Assault forces has one at all, and few have remote stealth detecting (such as spy drone or radar van scan). Get the satellite tech and one generals point into the scan and you can see all of stealth general's base every minute. I already find satellite underwhelming so taking something from it and giving it to the general in general makes it even less appealing.

(i mean, this tank could get like a maximum of 3 upgrades afterwards, so the baddest thing to happen would be like Pulselazer/Shield/Microwave so it could do strong damage against all Units and have this insane shield...

Nah, the worst would be plasma, particle and pulse lasers. Strong against everything, especially buildings and probably armed with a point laser defense. Would take a matter of seconds to destroy a base with a single one. Laser general is already filled with super weapons, so I don't think he needs a super tank as well.

after my brother send his Army to defend, port ALL TANKS in HIS BASE

I advise your brother to rush. Really, fights with around 50 tanks should be rare. I destroyed an opponent with 4 tanks at tech 0 (2 battlemaster, dragon and ecm) because you CAN! I'm trying to get out of that mindset of "keep building an unstoppable army," because I tend to keep losing, or stalling the game, by doing so. Now it's "attack when I can, and just keep putting pressure on." You're opponent can't build as effectively and you never have to deal with a stupidly big army.

would be awesome if you could upgrade that artillerie with plasma or Ion later on

Can't see how that'd work or even be necessary. Plasma is characteristically short range, and there is already an ion artillery defense & heavy ion tank (though I would like another ion unit...I was sad when I couldn't find the ion aurora. Laser general should really have his airforce fleshed out again. He's missing the falken particle plane and the ion aurora).