12 replies to this topic

[duke_Qa]

This article is more critical of Obama than the topic itself, but I figure its good for a quick summary of today's situation.

For me, these days I get a feeling that I had the winter of 2002-spring of 2003, before the invasion of Iraq started. There are too many signs in both media and in major western powers, that our elected and unelected leaders are actively interested in provoking a war with Iran.

I guess this could be motivated by 2-3 major groups, which might overlap:
1. The military industrial complex of the USA and western Europe, who see their cash-flow drying out as we leave Iraq and start removing our forces from Afghanistan. Both directly through weapon sales, and indirectly through mercenary companies, who lose jobs the western businesses they protect bail out.
2. The western power-people with ties to rich Saudis, who are none too pleased about the massive influx of power we indirectly gave Iran as we neutralized Iraq.
3. neo-conservative American politicians with no scruples, who would love nothing more than to force a democratic peace-oriented president, into a war that could ruin his re-election chances.

"Starting a new war to make money on military sales which siphons cash from the taxpayers to our pockets? Check... Make Saudi friends happy and more willing to throw stolen oil and money after you? Check... Force President into war that will annihilate his re-election chances and get us a president we control 100%? CHECK".

I think that pretty much sums up my opinion on the topic. I was planning to write something more, but I think I've hit all the points that needs hitting... and my soul died a little as I wrote this, and its lunch.

Edited by duke_Qa, 03 February 2012 - 02:02 PM.

[luh-koala]

Really liked this post, its true a matter to be looked in. and things like SOPA are child's play compared

About comparison Iraq-Iran, thats true, but u must see that USA / EU had a very strict contact and a long history with Iraq. theres
a lot of political manipulation happening since 80's, so i think that the recent war (wich for me looked like a 3rd Gulf War, since the Arab Spring is happening in a paralel side)
was too the final blow of the american "economy tweak+ republicanism food".

1. Its weird, because the places u said concieves the biggest temples of the capitalism .. In theory, the world consuming clock tics there first. Or it was before China =D heheh

2. Great point, never looked further to that... Well, its very figurable, since Iran is adopting a real anti-american position, whati think its wrong. Media destroy's the consistency of
the information, but thus, Iranian government is breaking a LOT of human-rights for many years. So, if war don't come, the Arab Spring will. Look Libya! Egypt! If u compare the
current situation of these countries with Afeghanistan / Iraq , they had conserved their culture, leadership and patriotic idealism much more then occupied places =)

3. *Sign above.*

I think that pretty much sums up my opinion on the topic. I was planning to write something more, but I think I've hit all the points that needs hitting... and my soul died a little as I wrote this, and its lunch.

Don't let it die^^ i think that americans are changing how the (modern) world see them, and Obama had a main role at this picture. I think that isnt define as just pacifism and external politics,
since USA (like every other country in the world) have social, politic and cultural flaws that are being taken more account since the Democrats assumed the role.

But, as u told in the begin,.. its 2 or 3 groups, and money, Congress support and interests.^^

As for me.. my political idol is Ayrton Senna. =D

[duke_Qa]

1. Well of course, we in the west have ruthless corporations that earns money on strife. Its Shock doctrine, creating crisis to provoke changes, which they then abuse to squeeze as much money as possible out of. Not sure what you are saying with the world-consuming clock though.

2. Iran is no angel, I was planning to say that. But as you mention, give them time and they will collapse on their own, and the rebuilding phase will be a lot smoother when they can't blame someone else for their pain. We don't need to go there at all, but if we do, it should be for civilian aid and not military occupation.
Also worth mentioning is the Israeli lobby and Israel itself. As mentioned in the article, cooperation between Israel and the US could go so far as false-flag terrorism, where Israelis stage a terrorist attack on the US to make it look like Iran did it.

Don't let it die^^ i think that americans are changing how the (modern) world see them, and Obama had a main role at this picture. I think that isnt define as just pacifism and external politics,
since USA (like every other country in the world) have social, politic and cultural flaws that are being taken more account since the Democrats assumed the role.

Its a bit like a cutter saying "I cut myself" when I say "a part of my soul just died", although (hopefully) not as attention seeking and self-destructive. I swim in this virtual pool of cold razor sharp truths. It either breaks you or makes you stronger. Personally I believe I get a better understanding of the world, washing away my naivety . But some might prefer a pink tinted world, so I can't blame them for not caring about such things, but I do believe that makes them idiots and sheep . The art is to find some sort of self-deluded optimism that keeps you going while you at the same time manage to live with all the insanity-provoking injustices that you know exists in the world.

And I do hope that the new wave of internet users we've seen the last decade is able to bring change. America is changing, It has changed many times in the past century, and we are overdue for another reform.

Edited by duke_Qa, 03 February 2012 - 12:05 PM.

[luh-koala]

1. Well of course, we in the west have ruthless corporations that earns money on strife. Its Shock doctrine, creating crisis to provoke changes, which they then abuse to squeeze as much money as possible out of. Not sure what you are saying with the world-consuming clock though.

Hmmm, shock doutrine.. @.@ that remembers me Aldous Huxley and 'the sheep" (-Brave New World) D heheh, true, true..
About the world clock tic, more likely that the EU/USA arent the united, concrete and safe economic/political marvels as it was before. It looks more today like an "empire of many", and with so much interests conflicting.. crysis. =D Think that people have too much idealistic choices to follow on (
besides of making thier own, but gah, all fits into a political category) so the mass control isnt effective as before.

2. Heheh, Israel a good point indeed. Its most likely the working project of the capitalism conquest...
This theory of false terrorism and blaming is a bit utopic to me being cetic, but when u stop to think... Its like September 11...with all due respect to all innocent people there

and i see what u mean with cold hazor sharp trues.. mostly when u take then into account and start to question yourself / others... Its likely "doing the first step to believe at something better"... And its evil to think that the pink world ges more trueful just when u're ignoring this stuff
and living the "sheep" life =D (in another words.. taking care of your nose and the closer noses to ya XD)

And I do hope that the new wave of internet users we've seen the last decade is able to bring change. America is changing, It has changed many times in the past century, and we are overdue for another reform.

Well said, man^^ 2012 is around, maybe the meteors do indeed, fall, but over our conscience =D hehehe

Edited by luh-koala, 03 February 2012 - 12:24 PM.

[Hostile]

I noticed everyone failed to mention the Iraninan nuclear ambition on any level. Do you really think the US wants another war? And stop blaming conservatives for everything. 2/3 of the US government is made up of liberals, try blaming them for some % some of the time.

If you removed all conservatives, slaughtered them so to speak, then whom would you have to blame for the liberal mistakes? The liberals, OMG never, blame the Martians...

Iran is dangerous because they themselves have stated their intentions for regional power and wiping israel off the map and closing the horn and such. AND I very highly doubt they will just fall on their own, they had their revolution and it was crushed as the world looked on.

[luh-koala]

Hmmm, i totally agreed, Hostile, but u see. China is developing nuclear projects. Saudi Arab, Paquistan, India, Lyban, the Koreas.. Cause the Iran don't have any political backup, it was made the "black sheep" at ONU, and what happend next is just consequence of economical acts of the international government. And remember, the non-nuclear pact that was a exigence of ONU, so they're first guessing that the nuclear iran stuff was first built to develop bombs. Thus, the inspection teams the first arrived didn't discovered nothing.. the 2d found something, the 3rd found many, and them we have the EVil Iran with bombs.. don't look a bit of media?

About the conservatives, i don't know, but when i hear Newt Gingrich saying that he "Is not worrying with the too-poor ones", more then the election effects, his meanings show a very tradictional american way of seeing things, bringing the old "superpotecy" concept back. So, the democrat's end to be a natural choice,
but i do apologize, cause i don't know a small bit of the true republican / democrat idealism, just what media show us ^^

LOL, blame Cuba then^^ Or the russians! hahaha

Well, political attacks agaisnt Iran are happening since the end of 2010, and it got to a international picture since the first ONU restrictions we're applied.
And Iran is alone agaisnt the world now, so, in their own way to see things, yes, i agree they can be dangerous.

But, i disagree at the fact to accept that Iran is a stable and revolution-free monarchy... Think things will end beign military, and will implode into a civil war, like is being in Libya.^^

Edited by luh-koala, 03 February 2012 - 02:21 PM.

[duke_Qa]

That argument reminds me of the pre-Iraq UN meetings with the mobile chemical weapon factories, Hostile.
Worst case scenario, do like they did in Syria; blow up the site and deny it was you. Don't need to invade a country with pretty is the worst combination of Afganistan and Iraq to look for something that seems highly unlikely to be there. And then end up with what used to be a pro-western educated populace becoming the shia-version of Wahhabi terrorist.

IMO its better that we take a nuke and retaliate with reason(might lose a few hundred thousand if it hits the right spot, or we might shoot it down before it strikes, probably less than the total casualties of Iraq anyway), than go pre-emptive invasion for some kilos of uranium. The pre-emptive strike looks like an invasion and pretty much is. It ruins any chance of proper reform, it causes massive brain-drain through mass-killings and refugees, it drains our collective economies when we are being forced into wars by the profiteers for profit. If we got another ten years of occupation in a country that is twice as hard to control as Iraq, We would be forced into serfdom to maintain the military funding.

Liberal has two meanings in America it seems. there are ethical liberals and there are economic liberals. Being an ethical liberal means fuck-all if you embrace neo-conservative/liberal economic ideologies. "I believe in gay rights and abortion as long as I get to outsource this local business so I can make more money". I hate "liberals" of that kind too hostile, they are very liberal at taking bribes and being smug malleable motherfuckers


Iran is a threat, no doubt about it, but a full-out invasion right now would mire us in the Middle-east for the next 30 years in an attempt to stop them from bombing us with dirty bombs. We'd probably end up occupying every nation down there, losing 10-20k soldiers every year to IEDs and the likes, and nothing good would come of it.

[Madin]

I noticed everyone failed to mention the Iraninan nuclear ambition on any level. Do you really think the US wants another war? And stop blaming conservatives for everything. 2/3 of the US government is made up of liberals, try blaming them for some % some of the time.

If you removed all conservatives, slaughtered them so to speak, then whom would you have to blame for the liberal mistakes? The liberals, OMG never, blame the Martians...

Iran is dangerous because they themselves have stated their intentions for regional power and wiping Israel off the map and closing the horn and such. AND I very highly doubt they will just fall on their own, they had their revolution and it was crushed as the world looked on.

So Iran want a nuke so they can wipe Israel, who has over 100 nuclear missiles, off the map. An action which would result in the guaranteed destruction of Iran from Israels several nuclear capable allies?

What nonsense!

[Pasidon]

Nonsense describes most things middle-east. And people crack jokes abut Bush investigating nuclear weapons when he was in office... do people not realize the bombarding effect of one nuke? But it's never just one nuke... if I was leading Iran, I can't just focus on Israel like I'm blind... would attack all of my enemies in one fell swoop. We have to realize that.

And no worries... the titanic will rise again if another liberal takes office. It's a sad cliff when you're best jumper is Barack Obama yet again...

I was planning to write something more, but I think I've hit all the points that needs hitting...

Always consider the people reading your text storm.

Edited by {IP}Pasidon, 03 February 2012 - 07:13 PM.

[duke_Qa]

"Come late and leave early" I read in a book about writing, Which I guess can be applied to life in general

Nonsense describes most things middle-east. And people crack jokes abut Bush investigating nuclear weapons when he was in office... do people not realize the bombarding effect of one nuke? But it's never just one nuke... if I was leading Iran, I can't just focus on Israel like I'm blind... would attack all of my enemies in one fell swoop. We have to realize that.

And no worries... the titanic will rise again if another liberal takes office. It's a sad cliff when you're best jumper is Barack Obama yet again...

Nonsense which somehow gets us stuck in political and military mires time and time again.

I also like to mention that when Merica invaded Iraq in 03, the Iranians came with a request where they would drop all nuclear ambitions for a diplomatic tabula rasa. Which the US promptly responded to by calling out the Swizz diplomats for the audacity of just handing such a letter over to them.

Another liberal takes office? not sure if you are implying that Merica is ready for another Bush. It could happen, but it would be citizens united's doing. I still put money down on Obama for another term, then we'll see what happens in the next proper presidential election.

[luh-koala]

I also like to mention that when Merica invaded Iraq in 03, the Iranians came with a request where they would drop all nuclear ambitions for a diplomatic tabula rasa. Which the US promptly responded to by calling out the Swizz diplomats for the audacity of just handing such a letter over to them.

Hahaha, epic, didnt knew that, loved it... its the old rule: The winning side tell the history =D

Edited by luh-koala, 03 February 2012 - 08:47 PM.

[Pasidon]

I've always known that the Persians were the good guys all along...

I still put money down on Obama for another term, then we'll see what happens in the next proper presidential election.

Curtain rods... People are sick of him. We put a black guy in office just for kicks, but now its time to put serious people back in office. Har.

[duke_Qa]

Not that I think you voted for him in the first place. Optimal situation is that the right-wing of US politics gets marginalized by a new generation of engaged left-wing voters. Might even be another 20 years of democratic presidents if the Republicans keep going in the same direction they are going. And if the democrats in that time only do progressive things that brings America back to its "former glory", then I don't see republicans getting back in the presidential chair ever. Progressives would have taken over the position of left-wing and democrats becomes the new republicans, just more sane .

Edit: I liked this article about the 25% that like Romney. Good arguments galore.

Anyway, enough presidential election stuff. Right now I hope the embargo on Iranian oil does the trick, perhaps combined with the collapse of Syria. Losing their only ally in the middle east would be a blow to the regime's morale. So we'll see what happens the next 2-5 months.

edit 07-feb: Another link of interest about Iran and nukes that also points out another forgotten truth: Pakistan's nuclear arsenal. How such a nation on the brink of collapse can manage to keep those nukes out of corrupting arms way is beyond me.

Edited by duke_Qa, 07 February 2012 - 06:33 PM.