19 replies to this topic

[AllTheGoodNamesWereTaken]

Alright...so I got this mod a little over 3 days ago and have been playing it a lot. While this is an AWESOME concept, there are some things that I feel really make it frustrating.

 

For starters, the gameplay needs to be HEAVILY balanced. Well, let's just say I was able to defeat 3 brutals using ONLY ents...

 

Another thing...the length. Oi! I understand that you fellows are trying to make longer, siege-like battles, but I feel this really just crosses the line. I just DO NOT have time for a 3-4 hour match in my day. I would rather play 2 or 3 medium-length battles then one looooong battle.

 

So...I probably will not be playing this mod very much. However, I will be checking back for updates regularly so that once these issues might be solved I will play.

 

But I must say...the level of detail that went into the developement of this mod is just breath-takingly spectacular.

[Lauri]

However, I will be checking back for updates regularly so that once these issues might be solved I will play.

Which issues are you talking about?

Balance? Yes, that will need to be sorted, and it's always done when the mod is mostly done.

Battle length? That is a feature in SEE. It is supposed to take a long time. It is not an issue.

 

That said, the mod is being redone from scratch, and balance is something Nazgul wants to get from the get-go. But the playing length will remain.

[AllTheGoodNamesWereTaken]

Yes, balance primarily. As for the length, I am merely suggesting that most people who have jobs and lives don't generally have time for 5 hour games. So I'm saying that it should be scaled back just a little bit.

Edited by AllTheGoodNamesWereTaken, 20 February 2013 - 07:02 AM.

[Bofur]

Or you could cut back the train times to about 3/4 of what they are now, and have bonuses for the more people you have near to your troops, thus making rushes of 1 or 2 battalions less effective...

Edited by Bofur, 20 February 2013 - 09:59 AM.

[AllTheGoodNamesWereTaken]

Or you could cut back the train times to about 3/4 of what they are now, and have bonuses for the more people you have near to your troops, thus making rushes of 1 or 2 battalions less effective...

 

Precisely! Even in the original BFME 2 I never used those stupid rush tactics. I usually built up a huge force and attacked in mass movie-style. Which, as I understand, is the point of this mod.  But to be honest, this mod makes my large-scale assault tactics a lot harder to use.

 

Oh, and why did spider riders get taken out?

 

While I am at the computer, here are two more things I would like to call attention to.

 

1. Siege Units.

For whatever reason, ranged siege units are able to absolutely decimate anything in their path; whether that be structures or ground units. And don't get me started on ents...they are well-nigh invincible. In my opinion, all siege units should be WILDLY ineffective against everything EXCEPT structures. Also, they should be very vulnerable, thus making it necessary to protect your back flank where your catapults are. Currently, you can leave them alone and they will easily survive to destroy bases.

 

2. Heroes.

I think heroes should take up command points again, but not as much as the original. What is the point of being given a choice of which heroes to buy if you can just get ALL of them. It totally takes out the uniqueness of individual heroes. For example, if I am playing the Minas Tirith map, I like to get only Faramir and Gandalf, just like in the movie. Also, since heroes do not have command points, this mod totally redefines the term "heroe rush".

Edited by AllTheGoodNamesWereTaken, 20 February 2013 - 11:30 AM.

[MattTheLegoman]

Hello, I am only one of the mappers for SEE.

 

Spider Riders are silly in terms of lore. ;p And we are striving for realism.

 

Ents were almost invincible in the movie, and definitely the books. You do make a point that siege engines should be ineffective against units (but at the siege of Minas Tirith many ranks of Orcs were killed by the masonry of Gondor through by the Trebuchets).

 

I agree with the Hero idea. It must of been something in the original game that I didn't notice. I too like big games. Slower games means more time to make it epic. The Lord of the Rings was epic because of its slower pace.

[AllTheGoodNamesWereTaken]

Hello, I am only one of the mappers for SEE.

 

Spider Riders are silly in terms of lore. ;p And we are striving for realism.

 

Ents were almost invincible in the movie, and definitely the books. You do make a point that siege engines should be ineffective against units (but at the siege of Minas Tirith many ranks of Orcs were killed by the masonry of Gondor through by the Trebuchets).

 

I agree with the Hero idea. It must of been something in the original game that I didn't notice. I too like big games. Slower games means more time to make it epic. The Lord of the Rings was epic because of its slower pace.

I understand the realism part...but if we are talking realism, then all arrows should be one shot one kills. Even a hero could be killed with one arrow. Because in real life, if you get stabbed with a sword or shot with an arrow ONCE then your dead. Doesn't matter if your an orc or Aragorn, you'd be dead. If this game were to be completely "realistic", then Sam, for example, should not be able to use a frying pan to kill four enemy soldiers at once. Sacrifices to realism have to be made in order to make a game playable. Just look at first person shooters: do you see your character die after being shot once (like in reality)?

 

Again I go back to Ents, because they are just ridiculously powerful. In the movie, they were easily take down by fire arrows. In this game, they hardly scratch them. 

 

Okay, maybe it is just me, but I feel there is a serious problem if I can destroy 3 brutals effortlessly with an army of ents (and with the improved AI no less)! If online multiplayer still worked, it would be pure hell.

Edited by AllTheGoodNamesWereTaken, 20 February 2013 - 02:52 PM.

[Bofur]

AFAIK, no ents were killed by fire arrows, they were all put out by the water
*No ents were harmed in the production of this movie*

Edited by Bofur, 20 February 2013 - 03:45 PM.

[njm1983]

Ok buddy you made your point.

 

4.5 Is obsolete, the issues your mentioning here will most likely be irrelevant with the directors cut.

[Lauri]

In the game you don't have water to put the fire out.

 

But one shot kills? Are you saying that armour was useless, and that they should all run naked around? It's not possible to get it working properly, but imagne that arrows hit the shield, or different parts of the armour. Boromir was pierced by 3 (or 4?) arrows before he died.

[MattTheLegoman]

Going back to your main points. It will be balanced, and if an ent is overpowered then it will be priced and timed accordingly.

But with length of game I even try to design my maps with long games in mind. It is something that attracts me to it. Have you tried saving a game?

Edited by MattTheLegoman, 20 February 2013 - 04:31 PM.

[AllTheGoodNamesWereTaken]

In the game you don't have water to put the fire out.

 

But one shot kills? Are you saying that armour was useless, and that they should all run naked around? It's not possible to get it working properly, but imagne that arrows hit the shield, or different parts of the armour. Boromir was pierced by 3 (or 4?) arrows before he died.

Boromir (and other in-game heroes) take hundreds of arrows to kill. It is not humanly possible to be pin cushioned like that and live... 

Oh and arrows can pierce clean through armor if well placed. Look it up.

 

Njm, listen man. All I am giving is, like the title states, "constructive criticism". Please understand; I only give critiques like this if I truly think something has massive potential. This mod honestly is a work of genius. The new model designs just blew me away. The gameplay does need some tweaking but once that is done it will be spectacular. Whether or not this project will get shelved (like so many BFME 2 mods do) is a matter we will see but I truly hope it doesn't.

 

So my point is: don't get offended people. I'm just trying to help out. 

[Dreamwalker]

Of course, what you have to keep in mind is that the version you were playing, SEE 4.5, is old and outdated and obsolete. So anything you see in SEE that you don't particularly like, remember that the new version, Director's Cut, will deal with many of these issues.

 

And as a matter of fact, while arrows can "pierce clean through armor" if aimed exactly right, even a bit of mail or leather armor could turn a less accurate arrow. You might be thinking of crossbows, which with their extra tension can pierce through just about anything. But unless the arrow pierces the heart, a lung, the brain, the stomach, or a major artery, you ain't dead, at least for the moment.

 

One last thing: what seems bad in a mod to you might seem perfectly fine to other people. For example, I think the issue isn't that the games are too long, but that saving your game doesn't always work correctly.

 

I'm sure the team appreciates your feedback, just make sure your criticism really is constructive. 

[Lauri]

Hey, you started it

 

I understand the realism part...but if we are talking realism, then all arrows should be one shot one kills. Even a hero could be killed with one arrow. Because in real life, if you get stabbed with a sword or shot with an arrow ONCE then your dead. Doesn't matter if your an orc or Aragorn, you'd be dead.

 

I know that armour is there to add protection, not to make you immortal. But just like you can kill a armoured man with a good shot, you can survive a stab or a couple of arrows, as long as they're not in crucial spots. It's not like every shot\stab is a head\heartshot\crucial-organ-shot.

 

Regarding your "constructive criticism", please think about the fact that you just dragged something completely unrelated into a discussion to make your cause look better. Should everything be more realistic, or nothing at all? Can't there be a mix? SEE wants to have longer battles, and more patience so that when the battles commence they feel more epic. However, you cannot have thousands of units in the game, thus you cannot have "insta-kills" either. You have to compensate.

It's not possible to add it visually in the game, but think about the fights too. In-game, each hit deals damage. In real-life, they might duel for a few hits before injuring the enemy. Sure, you could make all hits have a 33% chance of hitting, for a higher damage, but is it really worth it? That is completely unrelated to buildtimes. Long buildtime is a feature, a feature that Nazgul wanted to make the mod for in the first place! He'll never agree to lower it, atleast not much. So please, don't try to use the "That thing is not realistic so why should this thing be?" card, it won't do you any good.

 

All that said, I do agree with you. I don't play SEE because I can't stand the long buildtime And you make very good points about the playing possibilities that you, and many others, have. It's not always feasible to play 5 hours a game, even if you do save. BFME is simply not a fun game to save in. It cuts up the game you're playing, and you might forget a few things the next time you pick it up. You'll feel like you're using someone else's army for instance.

But I won't ask Nazgul to reduce it, because I know it's the purpose of the mod.

 

And for the ents. You must learn to avoid using them for now. You probably won't see ents in the next version of SEE, but I'm sure they'll be alot more balance the next time you get to play with them

 

edit: Sorry if I come across harsh. But "Look it up" and "Read a book" are simply the worst and most pathetic kind of "feedback" I know of. It's basically like saying "I'm better than you, you're beneath me".

Edited by Lauri, 20 February 2013 - 06:59 PM.

[Mordor Slayer]

I think you made some interesting points, especially regarding the hero command points. Ents and other units will be changed, so don't worry (same for flying units, which can get a bit... overpowered). Other points will be tweaked.

[AllTheGoodNamesWereTaken]

Lauri, I admit putting the "look it up" made me sound like a douche bag 

I didn't mean it that way but I guess that is how it came across. I really did mean for you to literally look it up on the internet. There are some great articles on the effectiveness of midevil ranged weaponry.

 

Lol, however, I don't have any "cause" here! I'm just giving my 2 cents on the subject. I honestly did not expect this to go past my first comment.

 

 

But I am glad most of you took it well, nonetheless!

 

That being said, I won't be active on this forum. The admins can deleat this account. All I wanted to do is call attention to some of my concerns. This forum is sort of dead...last post was almost a month ago (aside from this one). I'm sure things should heat up once the DC comes out.

 

Baruk Khazad!!

Edited by AllTheGoodNamesWereTaken, 20 February 2013 - 08:13 PM.

[MattTheLegoman]

Actually not dead. We are still working on it. And taking our sweet time to do it. Regardless, most of the work that happens, that we show is in the mapping section. http://forums.revora...00-see-mapping/

 

And there is always the rest of the Third Age and Revora, if you do feel like staying. I think you could check out the Lore section. 

 

And perhaps ask if you could change your name? http://forums.revora...equests/page-18

[Pasidon]

Ooooooo... I saw the word 'critisisim' and I came ah' runnin' with a smile.

 

That's actually a really good statement... the estimated length of battles.  I wouldn't just complain about a length of a siege battle... but the length of an entire game.  It would be great if there were an option (sort of like in Civilization) where one can alter aspects to make a game longer or shorter.  The default game has bot settings and all (I also recall a handicap system?) but you guys could actually make a much more elaborate system.

 

And true... all the good names were taken.  I took all 1 of them.

[Bofur]

No, I did. End of.

[Nazgûl]

havent read everything as Im used to these issues. All I can say is... 4-5 is dead and burried. The DC version is made from scratch and blanace will be a MAJOR topic this time, don't worry. That's partially one reason why this takes forver to do...