11 replies to this topic

[Ganon]

So I've implemented a system that will allow players to choose from more than 2 formations.
The goal is to add much more depth and strategy to simple unit vs. unit combat.
 
I wonder if I can get some input on how to better balance my current formation bonuses?
Here is what I have so far:
 

Shield Wall (Tower Guard Special) = +40% Armor -50% Speed
Block = +25% Armor -40% Speed
Moon = +40% Armor -60% Speed -25% Attack
Wedge = +25% Attack -50% Armor
Dart = +25% Attack +25% Speed -75% Armor (If Cav, -25% Crush Decelerate)
Bull = +40% Attack -35% Speed -20% Armor -25% Experience
Scatter (Replaces skirmish formation) = -25% Armor +10% Attack +10% Speed, units distance themselves.

The bonuses for "Wedge", "Block", and "Shield Wall" are the same as in vanilla. They're just on the list for comparison.

 

...

 

And here is a screenie showing the above formations, excluding "Shield Wall", but including the default "Line" formation.

Also, "Dart" is a narrower version of "Wedge".

 

Edited by Ganon, 22 November 2013 - 06:01 AM.

[Radspakr Wolfbane]

Larger hordes too from what I can tell.

So I'm guessing from left to right: Scatter at the top, Line, Block, Wedge, Bull(?)

Moon and Dart?

 

I'd say Scatter could have higher armour since it's a more defensive formation against projectiles so I'd say +25% armour, -10% attack, and 20% speed or something along those lines.

Dart would probably slow a formation more than a Wedge since it's a tighter formation so I'd remove the speed boost on that one but possibly have a small range bonus for ranged units.

 

If you are looking for other formations you should look into Testudo and Chevron which were both common among the Romans.

Testudo can be done with a modified animation and a little coding knowledge.

[Ganon]

Well the logic behind the armor nerf on "Scatter", is that since it's used for rushing siege, it makes it sort of over-powered. Also, realistically speaking, if they're being chased down by other melee units or cav, they'd be easier to pick off while scattered about. And then you also have to worry about enemy archers.

As for "Dart" it's meant to be similar to what you see in the Two Towers when the Uruk-Hai are sprinting across Rohan. Sort of "single-file, sprint as fast as you can". And it's not meant to be tighter than "Wedge", just more elongated from front to back. I might add some random offset to make it look less strict and perfect.

Edit: And you guessed them all perfectly. 

Edited by Ganon, 22 November 2013 - 11:52 AM.

[Radspakr Wolfbane]

Oh and another possible formation is a "bowl" or crescent it was used I think by Hannibal as a sort of trap for infantry could be an interesting formation.

[Ganon]

Yes, I've heard of bowl. Good idea, thanks. I'll think of something.   

The thing I want to focus on, is balance. No formation should be better, overall, than any other. Or else people will just use that one all the time. But at the same time, you can see that each formation has its advantages and disadvantages towards other formations.

Also, formations that grant bonuses to attack or defense have to have something to nerf them. Otherwise people would always just sprint into battle using "Dart", then switch to "Moon" or "Bull".

Edited by Ganon, 22 November 2013 - 11:52 AM.

[MattTheLegoman]

This is all really fantastic. =D

 

Some ideas:

In Command & Conquer 3 human units will automatically take cover when they are attacked by large weapons. They start crawling and go really slow. Also, units like tanks are able to move backwards to keep the front armour facing the enemy.

 

Scatter looks like a good way to avoid cavalry and siege weapons - just because less of them can be affected by area damage.

[Mathijs]

This is some great work Ganon.

[Ganon]

Thank you Mathijs.

 

And you're right MTL, that's how I envisioned it to work.

[Echo]

I like the different formations, but isn't 6-7 different formations too much for a single unit (even if your goal is to add more formations)?

 

I'd rather let every unit have 3-4 types. That still adds more strategy and you don't have as many similar formations. I just think having 6 or 7 different formations (maybe even every unit has its own set of formations) is too confusing.

[Kwen]

BFME in general is a dumbed down RTS. Look at other RTS games that are widely popular (AOE, AOE2, SC, SCII, EE, EE2... ect..) All of them have very complex systems in place that allow for strategic game play that pushes the limits of the repetitive factions. The idea behind adding a bunch of formations, is to encourage people to try and find methods that could yield a win in ways that are different then the standard rock-paper-scissors style game play that vanilla BFME provides.

 

Even adding these formations, chances are, the typical player would only use one or two. Maybe a couple others in specific circumstances. But, if it is well done, and becomes relatively mainstream.. Advanced players could combine the differing formations in unique ways to create impressive combos.

 

Less is not more. Less is only more when it is catered to the simple mind.

[ICT]

They still need to have a purpose. Only adding them does not imply that more is more

But I really like your idea!

 

If it makes sense, you could add a line formation for archers. Imagine they stand on a cliff, select line and they all go to the front of the cliff. Or if you want to let them come from the side, closing in on the enemy.

[Meneldil]

I have added up to 4 formations for a horde before and wondered if more were possible. Nice work. I've always felt having some additional formations makes the game more interesting. I think you've covered the bonus options pretty well. One formation that I've used in the past is called "Dispersed" wherein the horde spreads out (individuals can be picked off, but it's tougher to kill the entire horde - like your Scatter formation), armor is decreased 100%, the damage multiplier is changed to zero, but the speed is doubled. This can come in handy if trying to flee to safety from an Eagle or Nazgul, for example. Perhaps you could build on this for your formations (defense versus offense). I've also created new formations for combo hordes because I think you can generate some interesting formations with combo hordes based on their constituent hordes. I don't know if you're pursuing combo horde formations or not, but you may want to consider it (just a suggestion).

 

One question I have for you is with regards to the toggle buttons. I have only been able to show two button images. Ideally, there would be a unique button image for each formation. Have you been able to resolve this? I use a special effect and/or text description to differentiate amongst the different formations. Also, I've had mixed results with including the new formations in the game AI. Since the same command was used to switch formation to formation, I watched opposing forces to do some pretty interesting things before I adjusted the AI. Even then, I didn't see the consistency I wanted (i.e., different formations used for different situations). I'd be curious to see how you're addressing it.