23 replies to this topic

[johnchm.10]

1. Why does the ai love the Venator?

2. Short of removing the file, how can we force the ai to not use the Venator, or at least drastically scale back its usage?

3. Is the Venator scheduled to be nerfed in 1.3?

Massed fighter formations of more than 20 squadrons can cause severe lag. A Venator can carry more than 20 squadrons. The ai never attacks without having at least 3 Venators. So, as I said, aside from completely removing the ship, what can I do about it?

[evilbobthebob]

1) As far as I can tell, it's because the AI aims for value-for-money in the ships it buys, so that large capitals with good complements (complements at a 50% discount no less) are high on the list of "good ships"

 

2) Rewriting the strategic AI is the best way, and it's something we want to do

 

3) I believe it will take longer to build than the v1.2 Venator, but otherwise it's difficult to say if it's "nerfed" compared to v1.2 since the combat stats are so different now.

 

We have certainly come to the same conclusions as you regarding lag in battle and starfighter squadrons. As for what you personally can do, I suggest editing the Venator files to reduce its complement size.

[P.O._210877]

I suggest editing the Venator files to reduce its complement size.

 

Or slow it's deployment rate.

[abesinay]

I use Venators as carriers myself, they're pretty handy ships.

[Aizen Teppa]

1

Massed fighter formations of more than 20 squadrons can cause severe lag. A Venator can carry more than 20 squadrons. The ai never attacks without having at least 3 Venators. So, as I said, aside from completely removing the ship, what can I do about it?

 

What can you do - play as Empire and don't build them. There problem solved.

 

On a serious note. It's main Venator advantage. Acting as big carrier ship. After all Empire spammed thousands of non-hyperspace capable TIEs. On the other hand Rebels spammed thousands of hyperspace capable ones and they didn't needed ships like Venator. Without big complement of fighters Venator is just sub-par to average (~upg lvl) cruiser with a lot of weak points.

 

I would be strongly against nerfing Venator. It's it only purpose to bring plenty of escort to the battle. From different perspective it's easier to obliterate 10 Venators than one Executor.

 

I can bounce ball back from Venator. Just 2 days ago AI attacked Eriadu (GFFA) with me being hopelessly outnumbered - 10:1, thankfully managed to scrap all (Tie-D) reinforcements in time for the battle (from Servacors and Clak'dor). If not for  wings of Defenders x5 (60),x9 (45) and 15 Blastboats Ps I would be blown away.  277 (!) K-wings, 500+ Y-wings, 300+ B-wings, 200+ E-wings just to give you the headlines (and not counting X-W, Barloz, Z-95s and crap load of capitals). It took over 3 hours (started battle before 21:00 ended it after midnight) to deal with fighters and then AI retreated without deploying capitals!? Allowed all my capitals to be obliterated to trade ships for fighters. And would you believe... after the battle game crashed when saving. Livid doesn't even come close to describe it...

 

Amazingly battle played out without a problem - lag was immense but no unresponsive units. DeFreezing each save (except Autosave as it bugs it) I make.

[johnchm.10]

Funnily enough, changing the population costs of the Venator seems to have fixed the issue, as well as reducing golan complements (my modifications to chih's submod had 14 squads for a golan 3. I dropped that down to 9. I am also thinking of revisiting an idea I had involving stronger ships as garrison units. Nothing too fancy. I'll make a new topic for that, though). Lag is much more manageable, the venator isnt being spammed, and to me, a higher pop-cost makes more sense, since they have a greater number of officers in their air wings. Bear with me here. In my current configuration for the venator-2, the ai's favored model, the ship has 6 bomber and 28 fighter squadrons, with 1 tug squadron. Each squadron presumably has 2 flight lieutenants and 1 captain. Each wing of 3-6 squadrons (I know my setup is only 35 squadrons. Just go with it.) Has a Commander with probably a captain as his xo, assuming that 1 or both of them are not actively in command of a squadron or two themselves. Those wing commanders answer to probably a colonel or more probably, given the number of planes, a staff officer like a brigadier general or a rear admiral acting as the air boss/commander of the air group. And that's to say nothing of the flight deck/hanger crews and their officers. And because modern carriers tend to also be flagships, you also have to add the fleet admiral and their staff. Ergo, a lot of officers are on the Venator

[a.fake.name]

One thing the Venator could use is interim upgrades to update the compliment to bridge the era's better.

Prehaps add a global compliment upgrade research, each new tier being a prerequisite to research upgrades for ships past certain points.

The main issue I have with it now is the extremly slow rate it's compliment launches.

[johnchm.10]

You can fix that by going to the line. If you have notepad++, it will be on line 117. I've got mine set to 8 seconds for the Venator and perhaps the executor, 10 seconds for everything else. Same for every other ship that has a compliment, except it might be on a slightly different line.

I guess if you wanted an interim Venator (assuming you are only referring to compliments), you could create a new variant of the Venator, copy/paste the ven-1 stats, and change the lines to whatever you want, as long as you make sure the syntax is exact. Otherwise, the craft you wish to spawn will not spawn.

On a related note, don't have the craft spawn a copy of itself. I haven't tried it, but I get the feeling that the game would crash.

Edited by johnchm.10, 13 July 2014 - 08:29 AM.

[a.fake.name]

You can fix that by going to the line. If you have notepad++, it will be on line 117. I've got mine set to 8 seconds for the Venator and perhaps the executor, 10 seconds for everything else. Same for every other ship that has a compliment, except it might be on a slightly different line.

I guess if you wanted an interim Venator (assuming you are only referring to compliments), you could create a new variant of the Venator, copy/paste the ven-1 stats, and change the lines to whatever you want, as long as you make sure the syntax is exact. Otherwise, the craft you wish to spawn will not spawn.

On a related note, don't have the craft spawn a copy of itself. I haven't tried it, but I get the feeling that the game would crash.

I'm sure it would be fine.
Anyway I'm off to have my CR-90's spawn Sovereigns

.

[Aizen Teppa]

I'm sure it would be fine.
Anyway I'm off to have my CR-90's spawn Sovereigns

 

 

.

LOL, out of curiosity: is it working?

 

I tried with spawning small ships in packs instead of fighters but never seen an ant "giving birth" to a mammoth!

[johnchm.10]

... How did I not see that one coming. Although this would give the option of building fleets instead of individual ships, which would work for the Executor herself, spawning Death Squadron, as well as potentially other hero units. Obviously this would probably lead to some issues, gameplay wise, but it could work

[Aizen Teppa]

As far as I know it doesn't affect gameplay in any shape or form. Alliance mod has deployable fleets from version 2.1 or something like that. It works great. Mod is officially crazy since v. 5 (maps are too small with soooo many super capitals swarming the galaxy), but deployable fleets works nicely. You can build any kind of fleet over planet but only 1 of any kind. Can't have 2 fleets of same category in orbit. Defo better for unit management, less problems with spamming units without end. Of course building separate units is possible, but often better to invest in fleets and then supplement them than the other way round. 

 

Here is sample & quicky GC. It's from Emperor Reborn scenario. Leveled up ASAP to 5. Fleet is deployable by 3rd icon and it works.

 

 

However despite this one great innovation I really struggle to like Alliance. To be honest I hate it, but with plethora of units it does have some - perverse  - appeal to me (and lag is inconsequential even with crapload of units). IMHO Skirmish is [barely] playable, but in GC AI cheats like there is no tomorrow (and some more after that). Absolute rubbish on that front. I know it's harsh on the author. Doing small modding myself I know it's hard job, but I don't like being screwed by "AI" which isn't really AI at all, just bunch of scripts exploiting engine.

Edited by Aizen Teppa, 14 July 2014 - 06:39 PM.

[a.fake.name]

I love that fleet idea.
 

I was actually joking about the corvette's spawning sovereigns, but if someone created a submod adding fleets I'd play the shit out of it.

Edited by a.fake.name, 15 July 2014 - 05:16 AM.

[abesinay]

How's the sub-menus he's implemented? Any good?

[Aizen Teppa]

To be honest, hmmm.... Sometimes buttons must be clicked twice with something in between (e.g.) SSD shipyard/fighter shipyard/back SSD shipyard. Really depends. Searching for buildings and units is a bit cumbersome, but advantage of course is many, many more building menus without problem other mods facing when you have all stations built and can't see all ships possible to buy. Quite hard to learn quickly what is where so it's fair bit of useless clicks until you figure out ramification of what is where.

 

With all UI ideas (+fleets) it's very fine job. BUT main problem of the mod is cheating AI. In Skirmish it will lvl station in less than 60 seconds, it builds Executor in a blink of the eye.. To get the idea of the issue, by the time you click start button and see tactical map human player hears: enemy space station has been upgraded. In campaign AI is teleporting massive fleet with ease. Quite hard to defend against stuff like that.

[Aizen Teppa]

OK, played  bit more of Alliance to create 'small' movie from a battle.

 

http://www.filedropp...deployablefleet

 

(~600 MB)

 

Few more observations about mod and gameplay. Far too many missile ships. If too many (3+?) game suffers massively often crashing. You can't deploy fleet reinforcements if any (friend or foe) gravity well projector is active. AI cheats, cheats, cheats - Ackbar jumping with massive fleet between points in a trifle Dubrillion, Thyferra, Bilbringi, Brentaal, Fresia. Take a pick he will be there next second. Most Empire SSDs are so pathetic it's hard to believe. Rebel Colossus is by galaxy length biggest badass in game. It takes 2-3 World Devastators dozen minutes to kill it. And Eclipse's super laser barely makes a scratch. World Devastator can't kill a shit if Rebel ship has Power to Shield active - shields regenerating faster than super laser is killing it. Seriously - rarely have more than 30 minutes for Alliance. BSDM is not my kind of thing. If you are sado-masochist then go ahead - it's made for you! 

 

UI and sheer number of units is fine example how standard Foc can be greatly improved. Moronic AI is example how to screw such great project.

 

Comparing Alliance AI and PR is like comparing Brick Tamland to Albert Eistein. Meh...

[megabalta]

I'm sure Firefox_Nemada would value your feedback. Just be sure to be polite, he's a bit jumpy sometimes. Oh and be sure to cut the comparing of the two mods too.

Edited by megabalta, 15 July 2014 - 09:02 PM.

[Aizen Teppa]

I'm sure Firefox_Nemada would value your feedback. Just be sure to be polite, he's a bit jumpy sometimes. Oh and be sure to cut the comparing of the two mods too.

Jumpy you say... Yes I know. And I'm sorry to say this but: That's why I don't really bother. I read multiple threads and I know how "well" he reacts to criticism.  In short something like this: 'It's my mod, don't like how I do things' - gtfo. Part between ' ' found few times.

 

Perhaps one day I will voice my concerns, but Alliance is only a diversion. PR is main thing by far despite - it's own - stability issues.

[a.fake.name]

OK, played  bit more of Alliance to create 'small' movie from a battle.

 

http://www.filedropp...deployablefleet

 

(~600 MB)

 

Few more observations about mod and gameplay. Far too many missile ships. If too many (3+?) game suffers massively often crashing. You can't deploy fleet reinforcements if any (friend or foe) gravity well projector is active. AI cheats, cheats, cheats - Ackbar jumping with massive fleet between points in a trifle Dubrillion, Thyferra, Bilbringi, Brentaal, Fresia. Take a pick he will be there next second. Most Empire SSDs are so pathetic it's hard to believe. Rebel Colossus is by galaxy length biggest badass in game. It takes 2-3 World Devastators dozen minutes to kill it. And Eclipse's super laser barely makes a scratch. World Devastator can't kill a shit if Rebel ship has Power to Shield active - shields regenerating faster than super laser is killing it. Seriously - rarely have more than 30 minutes for Alliance. BSDM is not my kind of thing. If you are sado-masochist then go ahead - it's made for you! 

 

UI and sheer number of units is fine example how standard Foc can be greatly improved. Moronic AI is example how to screw such great project.

 

Comparing Alliance AI and PR is like comparing Brick Tamland to Albert Eistein. Meh...

I like the inability to bring in reinforcements if a gravity well ship is active. However I would far rather that it simply make a huge gravity well covering enough of the map to make it a pain at times.

 

Sounds like that guy has great menu ideas, but hasn't bothered to take the time to balance that PR has.

[Zeta1127]

All I am going to say on reinforcements and interdictors is the Thrawn Pincer.