Attenpeter

Now I am kinda feeling bad for that feels a bit like I prevented the implementation as unlikely as the implementation of the feature might be by pissing of a developer.  

I know it was a low blow, to my defense your entire post was right over mine and i quoted the whole sentence so I assumed everybody would notice it. I was kinda pissed off by the way your ignored my arguments and the difference between my balance philosophy and yours, I hope you excuse it.

i just wanted to give feedback.

I agree the discussion is getting nowhere, so let’s end it and have a nice Christmas.

If you want to make Scorpion Cell equally powerful lategame as HQ, it'd call for siphoning the early game power to the lategame.  

​Not sure why would you do that, i agree SC is good early game but its around the same power level as LC or USA and nobody i know of has a problem with that, so no need change the early game in any way. Which btw have no problems in late game so you can have strong late and early game. (exept maybe vs PC because of masterminds) 

It doesn't make you sense, but it's been like that since the dawn of MO3.0 and it worked.

Seem like an " it always was so that SC has sub-par late since the dawn of time and should therefore not be changed" argument which is not really an argument

Scorpion Cell's lategame isn't even close to weak, it's mediocre at best due to Malver.

"its mediocre at best" yeah that would be a fitting description of SC Late game power.

If we are to make each faction equal in power, we might as well mirror everything, the result will be a dull game. 

You basally saying have a faction with stronger focus on numbers makes the game duller in this context, are you for real? 

if implemented would require global adjustments, because having 2 Irkallas would be over the top for example and again, it's not going make SC lategame any more stronger.

i took it for granted that epic units could not be duplicated if you want i check in if that`s the case in RR. Why do you thing now it would be not make SC late game any stronger?? previously you stated: "With vehicle cloning you would need to queue 2 or 3 of them, because of the duplication, hence such attacks would become way more frequent." that sound to me that you think it would buff the late game. Also double mantis tanks/ speeders would not beat t3 monster tanks but would the fight a bit more fair.

Should i take your missing reply on the Bloatic situation in the video as silent agreement that there was not really anything the other player could have done spawn-animation time frame?

So i see the problem here is that you don´t want a strong late game for SC while i want to have the powerlevel around the same level as all other faktions, it doesn't makes sense to me to have one subfaction lacking  behind in lategame power just because of "flavor", it would make more sence to me to make the official flavor stand out more to fix the power level problem. I also not really seeing the power spike you mention in the mid game i guess you mean the unit speeder, i don´t then making that big for a power spike in comparison to the other faction t2 units they are roughly on par with for example Marauders, Zephyr, Mirage, Seal Ifv, Irritator. Maybe in comparison to soviets but thats another story.

So basically the Vehicle Cloning Structure could only increase the price of the units and yes, I do see the contrast: it was meant to highlight the problematic balance of having 2 cloning structures for one faction. What you are saying is basically that Scorpion Cell should have two eco boosters, but one would come with the trade off of having increased prices.

then you logic is just flawed: 

statement 1 "With vehicle cloning you would need to queue 2 or 3 of them, because of the duplication, hence such attacks would become way more frequent."

statement 2 "As for the price increase: it doesn't work the way you imagine. Price increase also increases the production time indirectly, because production time's formula includes the price. That's why Industrial Plant indirectly grants another buff: decreased production speed and it can't be overriden."

what you wanted to say: "it was meant to highlight the problematic balance of having 2 cloning structures for one faction." 

these states just not even contradict each other they do nothing to imply problems with having 2 cloning structures for one faction.

Also i would be fine if the building has cost cost reduction at all but just simply double you tank building speed (100% price increase) which would be a much stronger effect than building another wf.

The core issue, which you just don't seem to understand is: it doesn't bring anything unique to Scorpion Cell and just makes a spammy faction even more spammier

The core issue, which you just don't seem to understand is it would help to bring SC late game closer to  other factions which is was my intention is, by amplifying the strength of it. In comparison to HQ or PC they don´t use more infantry at all and have only around 30% more tanks on the field which is not really that much of a difference 

The core unit in the Epsilon arsenal is the Brute whether you like it or not, Cloning Vats enables the player to spam them, so in lategame the Epsilon player is going to rely on infantry (Brute) spam a lot.

i guess this is also addressed at me, its really hard to tell if you don´t use quotes, if yes what did i do to make you think i do not know that, i even said in one of my previews post: "especially Epsilon because infantry seems to be balanced around the cloning vet."

Currently Scorpion Cell lategame relies on Tyrants, which of course aren't particularly strong head on, but are really devastating if they pop up in one's base. 5 of them are enough to take out core structures in a matter of seconds.

​Also i know that SC relies on tyrants which as i stated were overbuffed hard in the latest patch with the hidden ROF change, the entire point of my proposal was to fix the late game deficit of SC which will be even bigger when tyrants be fixed. You sound like you believe I've never played against SC or as Scorpion cell in mp.

 With vehicle cloning you would need to queue 2 or 3 of them, because of the duplication, hence such attacks would become way more frequent. Scorpion Cell is spammy indeed, but their armored units were intended to lose head on, that's why   <- is there some part of the sentence missing? even with 25% reducktion SC would still lose to t3 monster tank spam.

As for the price increase: it doesn't work the way you imagine. Price increase also increases the production time indirectly, because production time's formula includes the price. That's why Industrial Plant indirectly grants another buff: decreased production speed and it can't be overriden.

Are you not see the contrast of what you wrote? On the one hand you say it would be to spammy and on the other it would not that big of a boost, FYI i know that the price is in the production formula  it would be with 50% price reduction still a build time boost! EDIT mh according to terminal velocity its not a a factor in build time, if thats the case i would consider it worth building even with out a overall cost reduction if the price of the building itself is not to high.

Also the 50 % price increase was only a number could be easily changed to be more balance for example with: 

40 % price increase  => 30% price reduction per unit 

50 % price increase  => 25% price reduction per unit 

60 % price increase  => 20% price reduction per unit

As I said, Scorpion Cell will likely get something unique (or not), which will allow more late-game opportunities, but increasing their unit spam just won't make Scorpion Cell any more interesting. 

Well i cant factor in something what is not even revealed yet in this discussion, something what you are not even sure if its gets added to the game. Also i thing SC would be more interesting if it would be more have more unit spam but it just my humble opinion.

Slow Infantries might suffer casualties against Bloatick Trap, but fast infantries usually evade it unless caught off-guard. 

Even if fast infantry can evade most infantry simply cant in the game right now this gets exponentially worse the bigger the infantry blob is, lets just look at this example 

https://youtu.be/wBaFTBPqEjQ?t=475 even if the HQ player would have perfectly spit his forced he would had lost many units because Bloatick are faster than most infantry, which is fine they would be useless without the speed. In order to nearly completely evade the dmg of the trap he would have to split in at least 2 different directions which require a lot of actions in an extreme short time Frame (select the units, give the move order, have some units shoot the Bloatics so they just run into you) which is not really possible if you don´t have the reflexes of a god.

There is now definitely not enough time to react fast enough and don`t get me even started on Alied infantry blob which require deploy to be effective.

It is usually rather obvious where the player is going to use it, so with good macro knowledge bloatick trap can become predictable

It its predictable Where the enemy its going to use it but even if you know its still now really doge-able also you cant watch you infantry all the time just because the enemy is SC, you have to place buildings some time watch, for drillers, check your miners because malver .... 

Infantry Cloning + Vehicle Cloning for one faction would be really difficult to balance properly. Scorpion Cell units already produce fast and are cheap, if you increase unit prices, you will nerf its strong early game power in exhange for some late game power for a faction, which starts falling off after midgame anyway.

My proposal don´t takes any early game power away from SC if you read correctly the price increase come only if you have the Duplication Facility which would be t3 anyway.

At which unit do you Fear would break the power balance of SC in late game with the Duplication Facility on t3 do you fear speeders or mantis tanks or speeders would be terrible op with a 25 % discount that still doesn't seem to be worse than fighting against cata, tesla-cruisers spam. (tyrants need an adjustment anyway)