15 replies to this topic

[FATEdPondera]

So, I managed to get this game mod to work, fight against the easy AI for a time, and deeply enjoy myself. I play around with US and Euro Tanks and Aircraft and feel confident enough to move up in difficult. 

 

Holy crap, I had no idea what was waiting for me. The second I set that AI to normal, it was like the pied piper flew over to Russia and set his flute to the murderer setting. My first attempt ended extremely poorly with a double refinery start (bad habit from C&C 3, since Chrono miners don't need any more than 1), didn't get enough cash together, and was slaughtered by Russian tank wave. 

 

Second attempt, did marginally better, though I witnessed something odd. Do dogs have a kind of a lunge attack? I watched one leap, ignoring the heavy machine gun fire it was under, kill 3 GIs....and a cavalier tank. How the heck did it do that?! Also, I noticed that the AI OBVIOUSLY has complete map awareness. A tesla trooper crept around just outside the range of my defenses, having a clear idea of exactly how far they could shoot (another point of "AI is a cheating bastard" in effect), and tried to pop a chrono miner when it returned to the refinery. My GIs killed him, but still...annoying. 

 

Then this guy called Volkov, showed up. I remember reading about him on the website. Men, tanks, defenses, didn't matter to this guy. He just chewed them up and spat in my face. Next attack wave showed up, and let's be honest, it was just over at this point. 

 

So, instead of whining like certain Payday 2 enemies would accuse me of after losing (look up "Cloaker" for that reference), I'm asking the seasoned veterans who have been playing this for 14 years. I want to know your starting build orders, oh great gurus of RTS wisdom, how you survive against enemies, how you accumulate the cash necessary for war waging. Is there possibly a guide I can look up to play better? This has potential, but if Normal is destroying me, I shudder to imagine how hard Mental will slaughter me. 

 

Also... is it even possible to get spies to infiltrate enemy tech labs? There's some cool stuff to be gained from that, but the AI wraps the tech labs in walls, and surrounds them with dogs, so... I guess I'm just going to have to take people's word for it that stolen tech units are neat. 

[CLAlstar]

Greetings.

Considering that you already did well against easy AI (something most of new players cannt even do) you're already on good way.

Normal AI is actually a bit toughter, as attack waves are coming faster after each another, unlike on Easy AI. I see your matchup was EA vs Russia so i'll try to explain couple of things.
1. Map - Probably you know that, but there are several maps which give you hard time defending and vice versa, map with chokepoints which you can easily defend (and somewhere in between mix of both). Try to play on chokepoint maps first, then slowly move to bigger flat areas.

2. Chitzkoi - This is what you have encountered. He's T3 "Commando" unit for russia, alongside with Volkov. Only dog capable of using lunge attack + being a better terror drone.
3. AI is a cheating bastard - (I guess you are Troper) and you are absolutely right. Not only (in current version) AI have unlimited money to spam their stuff but also some of their attacks will target specific units. Example: group of tanks always going after miners, borillos going straight to your base, etc. Ofc you can use it to your own adavantage, by securing ore fields or putting a prism tower there and there.
4. About volkov - his main vulnerability are attacks from more than one side + air units. Rocketeers should be one of your main response teams during games against AI - they are fast, cost efficient and in bigger numbers they shred everything in seconds.

5. Build order - There are better EA players, but this is what i usually do.
Barracks -> Refinery -> Power Plant -> Factory -> Air force command HQ -> Power Plant -> Refinery

- Wall your MCV when you build barracks
- 8 GI, 4 GGI, 3 dogs for scouting + engineers for capturing derricks from barracks
- Have a gun turret ready to be placed in case of enemy tanks incoming early
- My factory order: Cavalier, Archon, 2 miners
- After reaching AFCHQ you can add either another batch of GI/GGI with 2 medics or start making rocketeers.

- If you play on chokepointy map or urban, try to garrison what is close to your base and what you think AI will go through to reach you.
- Pillboxes in corners will help you with spies (if you spot them earlier).

- Use dog to scout enemy base to make sure you see attacks coming to you.
- Before you reach T3 you should have 6 miners. You can achieve that even by making additional refineries and selling them after that if you want to make some tanks in meanwhile.
- Most obvious, use defenses.

 

During T3 your main army will consist of Thors (anti infantry/anti air), Prism tanks (siege/anti infantry), Mirage tanks (anti tank) and Charon tanks if you play against China who is sending Nuwas at you.

 

And yes, while its hard to infiltrate labs, you can still use for example stallion with Siegfried + spies inside. Siegfried blows up a hole in wall using force fire, spy enters in. Should work only if enemy AI have his battle lab outside his main base (aka very often).

[Bernadiroe]

First and foremost: symmetrical base.

 

Secondly, I only play in Bay of Pigs so I don't know whether this will help you or not.

I'm more of a guy who loves playing with friendly AI, while trying to help defend them from enemy AI.

So my setup always 3 v 3, whereas me AI AI and AI AI AI. All Mental. (in current version, mental AI vs mental AI can never kill each other unless one/both are soviet which in that case the first one to send kirovs will guaranteed win)

 

My most annoying problem is when against any epsilon factions. In mental, they can send you up to 12 brutes in 1 wave, which usually before I get to Tech Lab and pretty much destroy everything,

and if not everything, the things of left of my base pretty much can't defend itself from next tier 3 tanks.

 

In your theme, which using EA against Russia, to protect yourself from tanks: Mirage Tanks. Spread that baby around your base or where the enemy comes from. Around 4~6 each spot would be enough.

Accompany them with 2~3 Prism Tanks and 1~2 Thor Gunships each spot and you pretty much take care of tank and infantry problems.

 

For volkov/chitzkoi, Prism Tank lasers will bait them closer (and also other tanks), whilst Thor Gunships and Mirage Tanks will do the kill (the prism laser also do abit of damage to him).

Prism Tanks also there in case enemy sent you Terror Drones, which discover the Mirage Tanks. Make some repair IFVs and put on guard around the mirage.

 

Protect the ore field with mirage tanks (to counter tanks) and rocketeers (to counter infantries)

 

> Build order [conyard]: barracks > power plant > refinery > war factory > power plant > airfield > strategy center > power plant > tech lab > upgrade all power plant > ore purifier > more power plant/barracks/war factories/airfields/refineries

> Build order [defense tab]: Wall ConYard > 2~3 Pillbox > 2~3 Gun turret > 4 patriot > repeat if neccessary

> Build order [barracks]: 8 GI > 8 GGI > x engineer (in case there's close oil derricks) > x dogs > 4 medic > 8 rocketeers > x chrono legion > repeat

> Build order [war factory]: 2~3 Harvester > 3 robot tanks > 4 Cavalier > 8 Mirage > 6 Thor > 6 Prism > repeat from Mirage

> For starters, just defend your base with GGI and GI in deploy mode around where enemy comes from. Don't scatter them. Garrison building if they are close to where enemy would come.

> Wall your ConYard and make some Pillboxes infront of the GGI and GI (not too far) to bait the incoming tanks to attacking them first, whilst your deployed GGI and GI shower them with damage.

> Also make 2 or 3 robot tanks to protect you from spies (put them around war factory, power plants and barracks, or where enemy comes from)

 

Try to send spies on your enemy WF and barracks to gain veteran, then you can send 1~2 spies to wait near the walled TechLab, then send 2 barracuda (manuever them to avoid AA) to destroy the wall and slip your spies in. (iirc, you will get Hoplite and he does miracle to enemy tanks)

 

Make sure to create a shitload of Thor Gunships early on (8~10) to protect your base from Kirovs (they immediately target the nearest of: war factories/barracks/airfields/shipyards/conyards). Soviet AI usually will send a group of 4~6 kirovs in 1 wave (in Mental).

Edited by Bernadiroe, 01 June 2016 - 11:17 AM.

[FATEdPondera]

thank you both VERY much for your help. I just won my first game against a normal AI on the bay war map. Seems that with enough Guardian and GIs and decent medic support, one can hold a chokepoint almost perpetually and there's little they can't handle. Though, I do have some questions. 

 

It was mentioned that one can build a refinery for the chrono miner, and then sell it off almost immediately. How much of the structure is refunded when you do that? Because, out of a war factory, they would cost 1400. Refineries cost 2000 and if the refund amount is 50%, then one can acquire a miner for 400 less than normal, this method proving the most efficient when you don't need to build anymore production structures at the moment. 

 

Second is about hotkeys. Am looking for attack-move, air selection, and navy selection specifically. 

 

My third question is about base expansion. Is there any means to expand construction area to new ore mines except using the expensive and slow to produce MCV? 

[CLAlstar]

You're welcome. Let's take a look at your questions.

1. Selling a refinery grants you 300$. However you also gain couple GI from that, so ~500. So basicly for a 2k you have a new harvester, GIs and factory queue capable of constant tank production without making breaks to make miners. For me its worth.

2. Attack move is Alt+Shift. However its unreliable as units will attack most of time their main targets (robot tank will stop to attack infantry but not tanks, etc)
About air/naval selection, nothing like that exist so you can simply use T hotkey to type select and assign a group.
Additional hotkey essential for repair units: CTRL+ALT target tank. Repair units will follow this tank and repair anything nearby it.

3. Honestly, i expand to new ore mines using MCV only if im not capable of crawling using barracks or power plants. Obviously, MCVs will reach position faster but crawl is easier to defend.

[FATEdPondera]

you are insightful as you are wise, CLAIstar. I just have one more question before I think I can rely on my own learning and experience. Thor gunships are both awesome and extremely effective at countering Kirovs. But the US and Pacific Front don't have access to that. What would you recommend to counter said attack blimps? 

 

....Kirovs destroyed my construction yard in my last game because I did not prepare for them. Never again. 

[Bernadiroe]

For US: Aeroblaze (7~9 should be enough to counter 6 kirovs)

For PF: Skyray (8~10) and it has a small AoE, so if the kirovs grouped closely, they all die at the same time.

             Or Battle Fortress (6~8) loaded with GGI, but this will kill the Kirovs one by one.

 

Oh also if you kinda rely on power (Prism Towers for defense, Skyray for anti-kirovs) probably better if you put all power plants in one area side by side, then wall them off so you don't have to worry about Spy infiltrate your power plants and screw things up.

[CLAlstar]

Selection of anti air strongly depends on map, but there are counters.
1. Rocketeers. Swarmed, their poke will get 1-2 kirovs down, depending on when you have spotted them.

2. Aeroblazes are self explainatory. 4 of them and you are set against any blimps.

3. Battle fortress GGI is self explainatory.
4. However, you can support previous group with Blizzard tanks.

5. If there is water area between you and enemy and naval is avaible, having 2-3 Aegis will come in handy.

6. Obviously T1 Anti Air in numbers of 8-10.

[Bernadiroe]

Hmmm...

 

1. I'm not sure about rocketeers since I nearly never use them (purely because I can't be symmetrical with them ._.)

2. I think 4 is not enough tho, since aeroblaze can only kill one at a time, and by the time one kirov destroyed, the other 3~5 kirovs already too close to base (unless of course, you micromanage them and start attacking the kirovs way before they get close)

3. Indeed~

4. I'm not sure about Blizzard tanks, since they actually damage other things in the tanks' freeze laser path. So you might need repair IFVs in case the freeze lasers damaging the BF.

5. I always prefer to not build any naval units with AI, since the enemy will send T2 and T3 naval units to destroy your ships and shipyards (and with Soviet, they will send Typhoon + Akula + Ivans) and thus you require more attention to be dispersed for protecting your naval shipyard. (unless of course, your base is like on a pebble in the middle of the ocean, then you have to use naval units)

6. I would rather have mass produced T3 AA units if I have the cash, since if relying on T1 AA units will require lots of them (10 is not enough surely, against 4~6 kirovs...) but I do like GGI, since even tho he's just a basic anti-armor and anti-air infantry, he's very good in taking down kirovs. If I don't have the cash, I would rather have 20 GGI compared to 20 Archon [GGI]

Edited by Bernadiroe, 02 June 2016 - 07:15 AM.

[CLAlstar]

Point of rocketeers is their awesome interception skill. You spot a kirov, grab rocketeers, waypoint them to attakc kirovs, at least 2 of them will be down.

 

While aeroblaze attacks do not splahs, their firerate is quite fast. 4 of them was fine number for me against mental AIs.

 

Destroyers are natural counter for any submerged unit. They can even auto attack an akula or resheph preparing to fire. So no need to worry about those, just have couple of destroyers and you're set.

 

You cant techrush enemy AI, esspecialy normal or mental. If you do, you will be flooded by previous attacks, not to mention kirovs. You might be at tier 1-2 when attacks starts if you want to play safe, so mix of rocketeers and T1 AA works fine.

[Bernadiroe]

It's not at all in my case tho for aeroblaze xD (maybe because I just put them near base, so I really need to destroy all 6 kirovs in 10 seconds window otherwise I'm screwed)

 

The destroyers will get killed one by one by the typhoons... and if they start attacking the typhoons while they still moving, most of the payloads will miss, leading to the typhoons having preemptive strike.

I usually use robot tanks (on shore) and thors (around shipyard) to defend my shipyard xD (if using EA)

 

No, no I mean if I have the access to both T1 and T3 and I have enough cash, I would prefer T3. When still in T1~T2, I would prefer GGI x)

[Colonel Angus]

I'm not a very skilled player myself, but there area a few tips I have for beginners (in 1v1 matches against an Easy AI).

1. Some maps are harder than others - maps which offer a lot of easy-to-defend Oil Derricks are the best for beginners, as are maps with chokepoints (e.x. Meat Grinder is one off the top of my head).

2. Personal opinion is that Soviet AI opponents are the toughest (due to their Kirovs), especially China (due to their Nuwa Cannons and Quilin Tanks). The Allies seem like the easiest AI opponent overall to me; likewise the Scorpion Cell and Latin Confederation are fairly easy due to their light units.

(If up against the Soviets you definitely want to build a mass of anti-air units such as Strykers to have at your disposal when the Kirov attack begins).

3. The Soviets overall, especially China are the easiest faction for beginners due to their straightforwardness and lack of micro-management compared to the Allies or Epsilon.

4. You can up the starting cash and starting units to give you an edge.

5. Without knowing all of the ins and outs of the different factions and units, here are some good RTS principles: A. Speed is the most important factor; try to always be building units and never letting a ton of cash store up at one time. B. Try to maintain a balance of units - particularly anti-infantry, anti-ground, and anti-air. C. Units are always more valuable than base defenses. D. Against the AI it's better to stay defensive early on until you've built up a strong army and then attack.

(I'm not an expert on the AI money system, but it seems to 'cheat with the money', therefore minor assaults are pretty ineffective because it will always just rebuild unless you cause irrecoverable damage - such as destroying all of its command centers leaving it unable to rebuild, or possibly all of its miners and s; destroying supply centers - its tech building such as a Pandora hub may also temporarily leave it unable to build advanced units).

6. When the AI builds its superweapon, focus your efforts on locating and destroying the superweapon each time it's rebuilt while continuing to build up your army in the meantime for a final assault.

7. You can also play maps with more players - e.x.  Play a 2 v 1 match with you and an AI ally against a single enemy.

8. I also recommend leaving attack dogs near buildings you don't want infiltrated, such as your supply center (e.x. infiltrators will steal cash). Building walls around key buildings is also a good idea, such as the radar center (e.x. infiltrators will reset all that you have discovered on your map).

I hope these tips help you out; for more advanced strategies I'd recommend talking to some of the more experienced players here. 

[MusketMarine]

If you keep pressure on the AI constantly and prevent them from building certain structures, they won't be able to get their OP units.

 

Just deploy a bunch of GIs, GGIs, and Medics in their base and attack their structures, whilst teching up and getting better units in their base.

 

Also if you're playing crate war, a cloaking crate would do you much good for your harvester.

 

(Also attack their harvesters, those buggers don't need to live.)

Edited by MusketMarine, 16 June 2016 - 08:59 PM.

[CLAlstar]

Cttacking Ai harvesters wont give you anything, they have unlimited cash anyway.

[MusketMarine]

Cttacking Ai harvesters wont give you anything, they have unlimited cash anyway.

It gives me the satisfaction of thinking I am doing something to hurt their economy.

[mevitar]

You better attack powerplants and production facilities, losing those will actually hurt the AI.