28 replies to this topic

[brushpicks11]

I must think that this game was made for nothing more than developers of the game. I cannot get passed the first mission why not make the missions more and more difficult like every other game that exists? 

 

The reason why red alert was so successful is because it used its beginning missions as a way to educate its users on how each building and unit works. This game just starts you off in a darkened city with random units and gives you 3 minutes to build up an army based on soldiers alone to defend not just a bridge or from specific locations but just from every angle there is. There is no consistency on the attacks and then on top of that they don't end. 

 

I had to make an account just to complain which I've never done before and I know it's meaningless and no one cares because this rant isn't going to change a thing but I need to write about how poorly designed the game's missions are. It's like the developers were ex-call of duty employees and said campaign mode? Screw that they only want skirmish and online.

 

It would've been so nice to be introduced to the different vehicles and soldiers and told how they perform. It would make the game a true expansion and not a game that purely raises blood pressure.

 

Good day

[Alpine_16]

very interesting view on this. in cnc 1 you always could make walls infront of the enemy base so the miners couldnt leave . 100 % win always no matter how noob you was.

[Damfoos]

Fair point, the first Allied mission is too damn hard even on pseudo-easy level, the amount of stuff the AI throws at you at the same time is just insane for an opening mission. Even Soviet and Epsilon (except the dog ambush) are much easier.

I guess the reason behind this "poorly designed" thing is that those who designed these missions are competitive players and completing these missions is a piece of cake for them, since PvP is even harder. But they forgot that the game has to be enjoyable not only for skilled players but for beginners as well, and I'm not talking about those who have zero experience in RA2. Yeah, you always can git gud, but would you want it if the game is so unforgiving that you can't even enjoy it? Honestly, I think for majority of missions (especially for "defend X") on "easy" difficulty the number of shit in attack waves must be halved (excluding cases when it is necessary, like some of Epsilon missions) and the mission timers must be changed in the same way (time until you lose expanded twice, time until mission is completed halved). And no BS like sudden paradrops behind your squad when you are so close to victory.

A good example of really "easy" mission on Easy is Road Trippin' (though it may be even overly easy, because your ally doesn't even let the enemy reach your base most of the time). Sniping tanks with pairs of Stormchilds isn't that challenging but it is at least satisfying. Last Soviet mission is good on Easy as well: you actually have the opportunity to hold your ground and fight back because enemy attacks are rare and don't have large numbers. Majority of Soviet missions are easy on Easy too, because you don't have to complete the mission before this freaking timer expires or to protect something from numerous enemies paradropping on your head and vehicles coming from all directions.

I bet devs read this and think "blargh, these casuals complain again, stop bitching noobs, learn how to play" but hey, put a disclaimer in the main menu then, "git gud or git rekt", like Portal: Prelude has. I agree that missions must be challenging to be more interesting (unlike RA2 missions where the AI was like "Numerous Soviet army came to destroy our vital base, huh? deploy some GIs and 2 Grizzlys,this will be enough") but when 6 Blizzards on EASY difficulty come at your base while you only have Barracks up, and a Paradrop follows that, it is not interesting anymore, it is frustrating. When you have no time to make any mistakes because the timer is ticking while enemy is constantly attacking and rebuilding the things you've just destroyed (I'm looking at you, Beautiful Mind) it isn't funny either.

Edited by Damfoos, 04 July 2016 - 12:28 PM.

[TheWankBank]

I'm a really good player in Red Alert 2, and even Yuri's revenge was cake for me at Hard,

 

But this game, my god is it hard, so much micro and defending in just the first mission!

[Solais]

In general, the C&C games are known to be more "casual friendly", than for instance Starcraft. Whenever I hear people talking about C&C, they always say "it's a more casual type of RTS". So in a way, many players who want to play MO are those who are used to the casual nature of the series, and are quite taken aback by how incredibly frustrating the campaign on MO can be; and the lack of saves is definitely not helping.

 

However, as a level designer myself, I wouldn't say that the missions are poorly designed; quite the contrary! But in BR1, they lack the necessary polish, proper testing by multiple testers of varying skill levels, tutorials (visible or invisible), etc. They have a feeling of being "unfinished", as all those "quality of life" additions are usually added as the final touch to levels.

 

However, watching the BR2 versions of the missions, they definitely look a lot more polished now, and the MO team have said multiple times that the missions were made much more easier on the lower difficulties (or even on Mental), so let's hope they will be better once the new version is out.

Edited by Solais, 04 July 2016 - 11:09 AM.

[Damfoos]

But in BR1, they lack the necessary polish, proper testing by multiple testers of varying skill levels, tutorials (visible or invisible), etc. 

 

Yeah, sо much this. I hope lessons were learned and there will be less BS moments in Act 2 missions.

Edited by Damfoos, 04 July 2016 - 11:26 AM.

[Atomic_Noodles]

There's also the problem with Mission Makers for MO considered all other CnC Games too Easy. And with modding comes the general rule of making things usually harder as is in most cases. BrutalDoom,Diablo : The Hell, MedianXL,etc.

[Solais]

I remember, when I released my final mod for the game "Serious Sam HD" just after I was hired by the very developers of the game series (final mod, as I had no time to work on mods anymore), it was criticized by some people used to super hard mods that my mod was "pathetically easy"... even though it really wasn't, it just had difficulty more similar to the original levels of the game. It's just a thing with mods in general. :V

 

And it is also a thing with actual game developers as well: First versions of their games are often incredibly hard and are lacking a lot of quality-of-life polish. Those are often added thanks to the main feedback received during the beta testing period. Considering that Mental Omega is also considered a "beta", that would mean that we all are also its beta testers. So providing proper feedback about every aspect is pretty much our duty.

Edited by Solais, 05 July 2016 - 06:11 AM.

[<OTL>]

Personally I like the harder missions since the vanilla RA2 campaign was kind of a cakewalk... and MO campaign actually gives some challenge

 

though I agree they should tone down the difficulty for the "easy" setting

[brushpicks11]

I appreciate the replies. I didn't think I was going to reply to my thread because I wrote it after I lost the first mission for the 4th time on Easy and couldn't defeat just 1v1 in skirmish ON EASY. 

 

I really want to like this game. I really do appreciate the work that was put into this, but you are all right I am a casual gamer and play to just kill some time because we all can't study and work all day and sometimes it's raining outside .  I just wish this game was more applicable to the everyday RA2 and Yuri players. I love that there's a new version of RA2 with new factions and units and improved gameplay but I can't enjoy a single second of it because it's just too frustrating and too difficult. I liked playing 1v7 Yuri on Brutal it was a challenge and I knew that I could beat it even after multiple tries. With MO it's basically impossible and the developers have alienated a probably significant slice of their potential user base.

 

It's unfortunate because I would love to learn how to play the game but where's the fun in reading online what each unit can do and studying each unit so you can remember come game time. There's no joy in that, the joy comes from playing through missions that teach you how each unit interacts with other units and how their special ability can be utilized to its full potential. The developers have a great start on this expansion but I don't see it ever being toned down and polished to be enjoyed by the casual gamer, by the gamer who really just wants another RA2 expansion pack.

 

EDITED:

 

I must also add that I like to play on a laptop while watching some sports. This game is not meant for that and that's also really unfortunate. Lastly it seems like the missions are meant to have only 1 or a very small number of ways to beat them. The developers made the game knowing exactly how the missions can be beaten and they didn't allow much room for error. If I take my eyes off the screen for 10 seconds to see a replay on television my base is destroyed. I cannot express how disappointed I am because RA2 was my favorite RTS of all time and I cannot stand the 3D like graphics all RTS's are built on now and this expansion would be such a godsend if it could just be modded for casual gamers. 

Edited by brushpicks11, 05 July 2016 - 02:20 PM.

[Damfoos]

...I lost the first mission for the 4th time on Easy...

 

You know.... some people (including me) can't beat certain missions for more than 10th time if not more, 4th lost in a row is nothing, beleive me. I remember numerous examples when I was VERY close to victory but one single sudden dog  mistake ruined everything

 

Also, you should stop trying to complete this mission then, try playing Soviet campaign for instance, the majority of its missions are beatable if not from the first try but from the 3rd for sure. I can also advice you to play Allied mission 3 (Road Trippin') which is quite easy on Easy level. Basically there's a simple rule: you can suddenly encounter a dog, a terror drone or/and an enemy paradrop ANYWHERE and in ANY TIME, so be ready. Use control groups to quickly select between anti-tank, anti-infantry, anti-air units etc., always scout and try to not complete objectives like destroying some things (unless there's a timer which requires you to act very quickly) until you have a good army - in most cases after you complete such an objective an event happens which makes things even worse, like arrival  of large enemy reinforcements team (happens in Scrapyard mission of Epsilon after you destroy the Embassy).

 

...The developers have a great start on this expansion but I don't see it ever being toned down and polished to be enjoyed by the casual gamer...

 

Actually, it isn't toned down yet because there were no patches since the latest release. In the upcoming release, however, the missions and AI were promised to be towned down, along with polishing of course.

 

...Lastly it seems like the missions are meant to have only 1 or a very small number of ways to beat them. The developers made the game knowing exactly how the missions can be beaten and they didn't allow much room for error...

 

Agreed, and according to news updates there will be even more restrictions which also give the AI even more unfair advantage: you will not be able to train infiltration units while AI will most likely send them to your base again and again. Say, in Twisted Insurrection (which missions aren't very easy either, but are less unforgiving for sure) you can use backdoors and use some unorthodoxal approaches like capturing the enemy tech and using it against the enemy. MO seems to go the "no, this is too easy" way and continue to put restrictions on what you can do and what not. I really hope I'm wrong here and Act 2 missions will offer more tactical variety, at least on Easy level. 

Edited by Damfoos, 05 July 2016 - 03:31 PM.

[Solais]

I never understood why they decided to remove trainable infiltrators on that one mission in the future update. Like, what's actually fun in having a limited number of those units that if you lose, you lose the mission, especially when you also have a base.

[lovalmidas]

I can only say this for myself, so be advised that this may not apply for all designers out there.

 

My working model for designing missions is roughly as such:

• Get overall idea
• Get map
• Get the bare minimum scripts working

For singleplayer missions:

• Adjust and script for maximum difficulty, to my own limits. Usually this sets the Mental Difficulty for me.
  Some broad adjustments for Easy / Medium
• Mission is available for beta testers
• Get feedback, readjust mission for Easy / Medium (sometimes even Mental)
• Generally Speeder wants (minimally) the mission to be beatable by the designer and one other person to be accepted for the release.
  (Hopefully mission designer should not explaining the mission to the testers, though Singularity became the exception...)
   

For coop missions (it is technically possible to create multiple difficulty settings, but I am not having such a workaround.):

• Adjust and script for a lower difficulty, that I can clear comfortably using the materials of only one player
  (sometimes using both player's materials is necessary - Ego Ergo Hax)
• Mission is available for beta testers
• Get feedback, readjust mission.

 

I take almost all suggestions by the testers into revisions, unless it is technically impossible or further problems arise from it.

 

If there are specific areas you find difficult, then by all means voice it here. Do try to be specific on where the problem lies - e.g. "Too many Nuwas from the left of the base" is much better metric than "Too many units".  (brushpicks11's edit is a good description of the problem)

 

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The main reason why I adopt a "Adjust and script for maximum difficulty, to my own limits" thing is for self-motivation. Challenging and then wowing myself is about the only way I can keep writing missions. The good news is that there are plenty of room for difficulty adjustment after the 'fun'. Apparently that may need to be invoked more often.

 

My highest difficulty rating would be a "Aegis Impervious" level - a fan mission designed to be possible, but bring the mission designer, with all his knowledge of the mission, to the dust.)
(No, Singularity is not at that level. Singularity is way easier with patience.)

 

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There could be the fact that a good deal of the tester team, being about 1 year into the BR1's pre-release betas (SP and multiplayer), have themselves gotten somewhat proficient in playing the games and using the units themselves. And most, if not all of the testers, are already proficient in RA2 and YR. So their standards may have upped quite a bit.

 

Some beta testers did request higher difficulty in certain areas. xD

 

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Confession: It took me more than 30 tries to complete the first version of Singularity on Mental on BR1. Not all are counted as failures; some attempts were stopped because failure in my script-fu (I think at least 5 are attributed to walls not getting destroyed when they should).

 

All other missions I have made took less than 10 tries.

 

Confession 2: Oh, and I think I will be bringing the same skillset into OpenRA. Oh dear...

 

Edited by lovalmidas, 05 July 2016 - 04:30 PM.

[Solais]

Maybe there's a need for more testers. :V (Not volunteering though, I have no time for that.)

[Graion Dilach]

Nah, there isn't any need for more testers, I think. I mean, we had that one promise in 3.0 dev times that easy will be easier than 2.0's - and every time I pointed out during my testing that it wasn't, I was shummed out to "git gud".

More cusual testers will probably just get more of them ignored. The sole time I managed to beat a 3.0 mission on the first time was a giant abuse on Death From Above which got fixed thenafter - Borillios on the top of the map.

So really, I don't buy the "missions on easy will get easier" thing, I've heard that one before.

[Solais]

If nothing else, have the files unlocked so people can make Easy-mode patches for the game if it will be really needed. :V

 

 

Actually, I remember a sort of tutorial campaign planned at one point. What happened to that?

Edited by Solais, 05 July 2016 - 07:30 PM.

[lovalmidas]

Death from Above's 'abuse' got fixed? I myself use Borillos + navy to break through the top. (It may be possible that a nerf to Borillo in the LessClosed beta may have the same effect)

 

I should emphasize that this is merely my own way of doing things. Other mission designers will have their own.

 

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That said, there is a thread in another forum that pinpoints a lot of changes in the Act One campaign between BR1 and Speeder's Mental playthroughs on YouTube.

Only Mental difficulty is showcased (unless Speeder is in the mood to post videos of them on Easy).

 

Be warned, the language is in Chinese, but hopefully the images should be enough suggestion.

http://tieba.baidu.com/p/4118804501

 

I must say, this person has really good eyes.

(oh, and the Chinese found it humorous, called them "Speeder's backdoors / Speeder is a cheating tricycle". Oh my.)

 

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Edited by lovalmidas, 05 July 2016 - 07:48 PM.

[Damfoos]

If nothing else, have the files unlocked so people can make Easy-mode patches for the game if it will be really needed. :V

 

This. It is understandable that the devs don't want their unique assets to be used in some "HURR SUPER +9000 UNITZ CUL MOD DURR", but they can place all the MO-unique SHPs, voxels, sounds and terrain pieces in locked archives and all the code and mission maps in non-locked ones. So rippers won't have easy time stealing really valuable assets, I don't think they have enough creativity and skill to adapt the MO maps to their mods either. In the same time, open code and maps means some users can fix bugs and adjust difficulty themselves even if it will be used privately only.

 

Using some... methods I've managed to get the string files for translation, the rules file where I've fixed some bugs mentioned in the changelog (like Malver veterancy, Archer projectile speed or Rashidi not forming a Repair version of Stinger which is essential in that Epsilon mission), and also the maps some of which I edited to become easier for me (like expanding the mission timers and removing some of the obstacles and ambushes on Easy). I also had fun in Lunatic when I made Volkov's discharger range to cover half of the map and damage to kill everything in one shot It was so satisfying and relaxing after I failed the mission once again after so many attempts... I didn't rip any assets off nor I'm going to, instead I've done some things useful for me and for the others (translation), but technically I wasn't supposed to get there, because of protection.

 

There's only one possible downside of this.  As soon as the files are open for editing, somebody will eventually start to make fan patches (even though these are forbidden by the devs), which can have questionable quality by MO standards but be more attractive for casual players which are a big part of the playerbase, thus drawing players and fans from the official release.

Edited by Damfoos, 06 July 2016 - 01:01 PM.

[lovalmidas]

Ripping ini code and is way more tolerable than ripping pixel/voxel art, sounds and music, because ini/map/mission code can only be used in the relevant mod/rules anyway.

(Technically, ripping music/voices and posting them on YouTube can be considered offensive to some companies / groups / contributors out there, but this whole thing is a grey area. Then again, technically we are using an EA-owned game engine...)

 

There will always be fan patches - we just can't troubleshoot them. I think fan patches and open editing draw people to the official release as well, so that is not a problem. We are all little creators.

 

That, and how, however, would be a different discussion.

[Eggrollz]

I really don't understand why people are whining that this game is too hard etc. because its NOT.

 

While most of MO's missions are certainly much harder than the vanilla ones that doesn't mean they are too hard or unbeatable even on mental for the average player and if you don't have any experience in vanilla RA2 or YR maybe you should try playing them first to learn the basics and getting better before playing MO.

 

While I see myself as a veteran RA2 player I really don't think that i'm anything special and still managed to finish all the MO missions on mental except for Singularity and Human Shield since I got to admit that these missions are EXTREMELY HARD and after 1000000 tries I gave up on these two (Didn't even bother trying on medium or easy since I got bored playing these missions).

 

If you ask me many missions like Eagle Fly Free, Road Trippin, Wrong Side, Bleed Red, Golden Gate, Happy Birthday, Home Front, Recharger, Dragonstorm, Accelerant, Scrapyard, Shipwrecked, Warranty Void and Focus Shift are really not that difficult at all even on mental and half of these I even managed to finish on my first try on mental, if you really have problems finishing these missions on EASY then sorry but you really suck at this game, not saying that to offend anyone just saying that as a fact.

 

 

Hope act 2 will keep having challenging missions.

Edited by Eggrollz, 07 July 2016 - 11:25 AM.