137 replies to this topic

[Athena]

First of all OMG Tom fix your quotes. Get out the snapback tag thingies and it's fixed.

I said the same, but apparently he went over the quote limit on this board, well that's what he said anyway (I didn't even know there was one ).

Edited by Blaat85, 13 October 2005 - 04:13 PM.

[Kazyumi]

First of all OMG Tom fix your quotes. Get out the snapback tag thingies and it's fixed.

I said the same, but apparently he went over the quote limit on this board, well that's what he said anyway (I didn't even know there was one ).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If you click the multi-quote thingy to add in more quotes before you reply you get snapbacks lines. You need to delete them. I've seen them between the text when I quoted Tom's post. If he deletes these lines his post is fixed. There is no quote limit. oO

[anonymous]

In the real sense, religion should be taught combined with social studies to help people understand beliefs, however, the spirituality part is disconnected from total religion. Your misunderstanding what spirituality means. It means, i use the term again, "self realisation."

Once self-awarness has been awakened all details can follow.
Your judge and jury is YOU not God.
Once self is awakened everything follows.
Its truth at its purest level.

But we all live here and are bound by the shackles of our bodies and are prone to the deception of the human condition.

[Ash]

"Religion" is not a collective work together, its not like God is telling people to change it. So its not "keeping up with the times." It's being and has been edited for corruption and dismantling to peoples spirituality.

The only thing editing people's spirituality is the fact that they're becoming cynical, and therefore becoming wise to the fact that what is commonly defined as spirituality's a pile of crap. IE, religion. You'll find a lot of religious apathy these days. People don't care about it anymore. Is it any wonder, when the world's as messed up as it is?

Morons, blind and fake. Religion isn't meant to be seen as 100% literal, its a symbolic method to spirituality and life. For those who take it literally they are putting themselves in the position to be exploited. You should learn from a religion, not follow it blindly.

People have been taking it literally for centuries. Why is it, all of a sudden, that's become noticeable?

So essentially you just clarified all that i said in one point

All except the idea of finding inner truth, I guess I did It doesn't matter what you call God. The idea's to live a good life to get into heaven, based on God's rules. The thing is, while yes it is getting corrupt, it's never been pure in the first place. It's always been rife with bigotry. It's only now that anyone's really thought about it.

Read my point again, your missing it. "On our own." Thats the illusion they are creating, the illusion is not that they pretend to care, because everyone knows the government doesn't give a shit about them. It's common shared knowledge. "on your own" is the "conspiracy against spirituality." The Mind-Body-Spirit connection is being dismantled to bring a level or personalisation which people only see themselves as an image. That is the "reality" they see. Just themselves standing alone in time. Life is a lesson, its likely you've had hundreds if not thousands of lives before.

Um...I was with you up until 'conspiracy against spirituality'...

People need to be taught philosophy and open mindedness, otherwise they will forever remain ignorantly ignorant. Religions purpose (in a symbolic/philsophical term) in this is to break the first level of ignorance and that is believing you know something.

Why do they? Teaching people philosophy and open-mindedness will bring the opposite. It will indoctrinate people the same way Bible-bashing will. Religion's purpose, Tom, is to make everyone adhere to a single behaviour set, and follow its teachings. Its purpose is to keep order, nothing more. Believe that by doing authority's bidding and adhering to all the rules set down by "God" will get you into a divine beyond, and you're less likely to break the rules.
It's called 'Fear appeal'. Put the fear of God (to coin a phrase) into someone, and they'll do more or less whatever the fuck you want.

Your still ignoring what i'm saying ash. It's the belief in a hierarchical society, the destruction of spirituality and the belief that you are "all alone." There is no purpose to life so we might as well live by the rules that are set for us. Thats the belief. If you can't see how the film "the matrix" relates to what i'm saying you cannot see past the current system of control. Reality is not this reality, reality is the ability to see everything as temporary. What i'm saying is: no matter what position you get in society, it means nothing. It's not like nature cares if your a president, congress man, billionnaire. If you get caught in a hurricane, earthquake or tsunami you soon realise nothing matters anymore, you also realise, you learnt nothing from life other than what bullshit you were told at school or during your life by constantly corrupt governments.

Sames happening here, whats the problem? We use shit products that hardly ever last, we eat shit food that is poisoning us, we take shit "vaccinations" that do more damage to our bodies than good. Does it mean anything to you that we are now facing purposely made economic collapse and a false "end of world prophecy"? Call me mad, but it's happening around you, takes a lot to see it.

So what do you suggest? I burn my GCSE results, my AS-level results and quit college? Say 'fuck the world I live in' and go on the dole for the rest of my natural?

Yeah. Capital idea, guv'nor.

Don't get me wrong, I see what you're saying, but I'd prefer not to live in the squalid town I currently do. Explain me how I can get out without a bit of la dinero and acedemic prestige to back me?

I wish I could be content with staying here. But I look out my bedroom window and all I see is a run-down shithole. I walk around town centre on college days, and every breath I take is infected with last night's booze-up, urine, fish, vinegar and decrepit old folks (which is basically the last 3 put together ). I DO NOT WANT THAT.

Potential to be rich? What do you gain from that? My intention is to teach, because i wish to tell the youth of tomorrow that life is not about gains and loss, it's about self realisation. The best truth is to realise is money, economy, wealth is insignificant, the only real truth to the meaning of life is that you can find out who you are - the aim free your mind from the "matrix" and find the truth. Both come together, once your start you realise, you never stop learning, that is because you know nothing and you shall never know anything as a human being or any physically living creature.

Dude, no offence, but if you get into teaching, you'll be doing the very thing you're telling me now you're trying to stop. You won't be ALLOWED to tell the kids what you WANT to tell them. Your objective is to get their grades up.

If you fail in that, you'll be t3h fir3d. And that won't help you tell anyone anything.

Then thats the lie in religion. God isn't there for a safety blanket. Thats where religion has gone wrong, its abused as a safety blanket to hide from the suffering that people see around them or with themselves. The suffering causes by everyone on this earth, suffering causes by ignorance and greed.

God was not meant to be a safety blanket, he was meant to be the truth in your heart, your soul.

When i said "does god enjoy making us suffer or do we enjoy making god suffer" i was trying to get you to think whether the question was significant with the "reality" you believe to be. Does god make us suffer or are we making our selves suffer by disconnecting from out spirituality (God)? Are we causing pain to God, which really means are we causing pain to ourselves?

But if I believe God Himself is false, how can he be any sort of truth or pain for me? Mate, if you mean God to be a metaphor, please don't use it. Say 'spirituality' for 'spirituality' and 'God' for 'God'. I can't stand metaphor...this is where you're losing me.

Then you are falling for what they want. To cause so much confusion and fear with distorted religions has two purposes.

1. People who believe the religion are controlled
2. It disconnect people from the truth (God).

God is all-knowing. So by damaging the religions they gain control over people, people are then confused and disconnect themselves from god (spirituality). Either way its a win to those whom want power, because it gives them further power to exploit mankind for their own cause and push us further into ignorance. By realising the "conspiracy" is against god, you realise the only way to help yourself find the truth is self-realisation. You are insignificant, everything you do in this life predicts what happens at death (and in comes the afterlife crap that is symbolic or literal - no one knows in our physical self, we can only believe.)

I still fail to see quite what you're getting at with this self-realisation part.

What is it you want people to realise? What good will it do them to realise it? How will it improve their lives? From what I've been reading, your idea is to turn the world to anarchy by destroying all structure in it. Granted, there are millions of flaws in the system, but if people achieve this enlightenment of which you speak, nobody will bother to do anything. They'll just waste away...

Of course, they need to be discovered. But instead of reading shit like "you can't get a decent job if you don't get a shitty qualification" we read "plato" or "socrates." Well especially Socrates. Something with living wisdom that still has real meanings to today. Teachers should tell stories rather than teach from a text book. People going into business should get experience of how it works not sit out listening to a mind droning teacher babbling on from a text book about money and management. You don't really learn much that way. You only gain useless knowledge. Kids need to be shown and taught wisdom in that way, so they get experience.

You still haven't answered my question. Besides, how will telling people stories make them productive to the world? I never really said don't teach them 'wisdom' or whatnot, but since the beginning of human society, everyone's had a place, a task, a niche that lets them do something the collective society requires of them, and allow it to survive.

You stop teaching people how to be part of the society, and the society will collapse. One person will be forced to do everything he/she needs for themself, rather than performing one task while another person performs a different task for the common good. Which is directly opposite to what you're preaching.

Exactly, thats the very basics of self realisation there. Realising it really doesn't matter. I don't get pissed off easily, because i usually could care less if someone said something to me and didn't agree. It means nothing, i have nothing to gain by proving myself from others. I see so many fools at college, wasting their time "getting wasted", "getting laid" and crap all for image and a false respect known as social status. The fools have their lives dominated by others and other peoples opinions. "I gotta look cool so i will smoke." Who gives a fuck? Really? These people you build up social bases with so short sightedness they don't even realise what the hell they are doing to themselves. They are so short sighted, they don't even think "i'm not going to know any of these guys in a years time, why the hell am i doing this?"

Eh? What did this have to do with anything?

Logical reasoning about life says he will find God. If you can't see God then your becoming a victim to the reason. The most liberating question: Why? is also the most destructive reasoning: "Why would God exist?" Leads too "How is it possible?" But then again it starts a loop of desire to find out more, just as i did and i searched, i read, i saw and i found.

If God makes Himself tangible, I'll believe in Him. Till then, he's just a fairy story that's been going since the beginning of time to explain the unexplainable, and to keep society in line.

Daily Life and Modern Living are the realities put there to stop you from finding inner peace and freedom by those in power. Does more need to be said? I think i've said enough about this. Daily/Modern Living are the controls, it's all about control. Power. Read George Orwell 1984, not in the same sense but in part III of his book, you'll find the part about one reason for everything Big Brother does, Power.

You tell me a better way to live. I agree, this society has its ills, but I'd like you to find a society that doesn't have 'someone in power' imposing 'something' on the people underneath. There's always going to be a heirarchy...no amount of enlightenment's gonna change that in this life.

And who knows what happens at the "end"?

The analogy I used was my own outlook. Fuck all happens at the end. If, as you say, we're the (and I quote Fight Club) 'all-singing, all-dancing crap of the world', why should we have anything better to look forward to? What gives us the right to look forward to it? That, IMO is selfish desire, which is directly contrary to what you're trying to profess.

Maybe so, but then that means there is another force controlling us, does it not? Who knows, we never see the other paths, they are just left in the trails of time for others whom exist elsewhere to follow.

Not necessarily. You look at any ecosystem. Each organism occupies a niche in that ecosystem. We are occupying a niche, too.


Lol, we used to agree on so much, Tom...what's changed?

[Tom]

The only thing editing people's spirituality is the fact that they're becoming cynical, and therefore becoming wise to the fact that what is commonly defined as spirituality's a pile of crap. IE, religion. You'll find a lot of religious apathy these days. People don't care about it anymore. Is it any wonder, when the world's as messed up as it is?

You still are not getting me. Religion doesn't equal spirituality. It's supposed to be a spiritual guide, but it's so fucked up it's doing the opposite and being used for human laws rather than reasoning. People don't care anyone, BECAUSE THAT IS THE AIM. No God = No hope = Fear = Power to others. Get it? Spirituality is not the belief in god, it's the reasoning to your existance and understanding the possibilies why you are here.

People have been taking it literally for centuries. Why is it, all of a sudden, that's become noticeable?

People in power perhaps? Foolish people whom ignore whats going on because they would rather take on bribery from an easy system such as capitalism, which soon enough will be destroyed itself. Knowledge is power, power is responsibility. See where this doesn't align with any of this "power to the people -democracy" or the responsibility of power by those whom have it?

All except the idea of finding inner truth, I guess I did It doesn't matter what you call God. The idea's to live a good life to get into heaven, based on God's rules. The thing is, while yes it is getting corrupt, it's never been pure in the first place. It's always been rife with bigotry. It's only now that anyone's really thought about it.

Gods rules are natural. Jesus summed it up in one line: "Love your neighbour as you love yourself." If you respect yourself, you will have respect for everyone else. If this is the same for everyone, we have peace. It's not, because of the corruption within ourselves. We are giving a materialist society and we automatically fall for it. It's a bribe. "Look at me, i got Nike, Innit" "i own 100 houses in the carribean." All gains and losses. One persons gain is anothers loss, fuck the rest, it means nothing. The idea of living by "gods rules", is infact living by rules that respect everyones free will. We don't respect everyones free will so it corrupts the entire system and it all starts from a mans most greedy lust, power.

I don't really care for the bigotry. I have said myself before, the Church has been and will always be a corrupt organisation. I mean for a start it's centralised in rome. If it was a religion it wouldn't have a fascist leader whom dicates how the system works. People would figure it out themselves within time.

Um...I was with you up until 'conspiracy against spirituality'...

Want me to clarify? "Conspiracy against spirituality" - Power. Everytime someone becomes lustful, for gains and wins they disconnect themselves further from the truth. That is the conspiracy, because it bribes people to be ignorant with "bliss." It may not have been intentional, or it may have been intentional, who knows. All i know is, it's just happening and i'm part of it.

Why do they? Teaching people philosophy and open-mindedness will bring the opposite. It will indoctrinate people the same way Bible-bashing will.

No it won't, philisophy doesn't come to any conclusions. It just leaves open the possibilites. So how can you indoctrinate? Indoctrination requires conclusions and manipulated knowledge - the sense someone has gained from it. Philosophy just gives people the feeling of self contentment because they are happy with what they know, that is nothing.

Religion's purpose, Tom, is to make everyone adhere to a single behaviour set, and follow its teachings. Its purpose is to keep order, nothing more.

Maybe with the newer religions such as christianity and islam, because they are all powerbases. Christianity was most likely manipulated back in the time after jesus, during the roman empire for control. Christians wanting to start their own power and domination. Sort of leads to how rome fell apart to internal corruption and how christianity gradually took over. It was intentional, christianity was manipulated so people could exploit god for their own gains. Your looking too far to the modern day christianity. If you need to find the truth, you must return to the source (damn the matrix ).

Believe that by doing authority's bidding and adhering to all the rules set down by "God" will get you into a divine beyond, and you're less likely to break the rules.
It's called 'Fear appeal'. Put the fear of God (to coin a phrase) into someone, and they'll do more or less whatever the fuck you want.

Exactly! Thats why christianity/islam is so corrupt today, because again its down to one thing. Power. They corrupt a religion that preached self realisation and wisdom into a source of power. Can't you see how the world is made up? The vatican is just a secret society, again the most corrupt will of man comes out, power.

And anyway, what difference are the rules of god than the rules and laws we live by and set ourselves? Nothing. Power, it's what makes the illuminati conspiracy theory so much more possible.

So what do you suggest? I burn my GCSE results, my AS-level results and quit college? Say 'fuck the world I live in' and go on the dole for the rest of my natural?

Socrates did, he had nothing to gain. He wasn't ashamed of his poverty, neither should you.

I'm not saying become a bum, lol. Do what it takes to survive, get a nice house, have a family, teach your wisdom to your kids. Thats modern day. I'm just saying don't get carried away (which you personally wouldn't, but there are pigs in this world who do) by materials and gains. It only leads down a path than no one likes. Greed.

Don't get me wrong, I see what you're saying, but I'd prefer not to live in the squalid  town I currently do. Explain me how I can get out without a bit of la dinero and acedemic prestige to back me?

Of course, neither would i. I'm sick of my own town, but then again i realise it means nothing, just strengthens my will and ideals.

I wish I could be content with staying here. But I look out my bedroom window and all I see is a run-down shithole. I walk around town centre on college days, and every breath I take is infected with last night's booze-up, urine, fish, vinegar and decrepit old folks (which is basically the last 3 put together ). I DO NOT WANT THAT.

I get ya, but then again its not about what *you* want. It's about realising what *you* want doesn't matter. I starred the "you" word because its down to personalisation, what our society does to you. Makes you feel all alone and isolated in a world that is already against you.

Dude, no offence, but if you get into teaching, you'll be doing the very thing you're telling me now you're trying to stop. You won't be ALLOWED to tell the kids what you WANT to tell them. Your objective is to get their grades up.

Of course, but then again, who knows what happens in the future? 10 years can have a huge amount of chance, it can bring a major amount of change, just like 1945 did. Either way if i taught kids of course i teach them what i'm told too, but as a history teacher you always find the oppotunity to raise awareness of other subjects to another level. It's not indoctrination, it's just explaining opinions are not the truth.

But if I believe God Himself is false, how can he be any sort of truth or pain for me? Mate, if you mean God to be a metaphor, please don't use it. Say 'spirituality' for 'spirituality' and 'God' for 'God'. I can't stand metaphor...this is where you're losing me.

God means many things, you just haven't made your mind up on what it is yet. You prefer to deny it exists because you don't like the manipulation of god and cannot get your head around whats going on. Obviously thats why you deny god. This is the test, can people still see god through the enormous stockpiles of shit that has built up over the centuries and intentionally clouded our vision.

[

What is it you want people to realise?

You are insignificant all that matters if you find yourself.

What good will it do them to realise it? How will it improve their lives?

A great deal, because they stop looking to others for "truth", they are content with their own truth. You have to decide your own truth, i can't tell you what i believe, that would be manipulating your thought to try and indoctrinate you to my own belief. Isn't that where this mess all started out?

From what I've been reading, your idea is to turn the world to anarchy by destroying all structure in it. Granted, there are millions of flaws in the system, but if people achieve this enlightenment of which you speak, nobody will bother to do anything. They'll just waste away...

No need to destroy the world, people just need to start respecting themselves and others. They need to stop being slaves to a corrupt system and deny the bullshit that the system is feeding their minds. Disconnect themselves from the matrix. I'm half way there, but i still feel i need more and it will take a huge amount of work, who knows, maybe i'm too reliant on this system. Maybe i'm waiting for something to happen just like everyone else instead of using signs.

You still haven't answered my question. Besides, how will telling people stories make them productive to the world? I never really said don't teach them 'wisdom' or whatnot, but since the beginning of human society, everyone's had a place, a task, a niche that lets them do something the collective society requires of them, and allow it to survive.

Of course, but you give them experience in the field by actually getting them to do it. Not sitting in a god damn classroom reading up on it. That doesn't help at all. Why do so many kids fear leaving school, it's because they learnt nothing from it. It's useless. It's being used for brainwashing rather than actually equipping people with the knowledge they need to progress in this society.

If God makes Himself tangible, I'll believe in Him. Till then, he's just a fairy story that's been going since the beginning of time to explain the unexplainable, and to keep society in line.

He is tangible, you just don't understand him. Stop following the bullshit society tells you about god, as long as you are reliant on others answers to God (the manipulated version), you'll never find your own truth.

You tell me a better way to live. I agree, this society has its ills, but I'd like you to find a society that doesn't have 'someone in power' imposing 'something' on the people underneath. There's always going to be a heirarchy...no amount of enlightenment's gonna change that in this life.

If i told you a system that i know that works and would work people would call me a tree hugging hippy. LOL. Nah seriously now, the indians had a great system before, obviously not for modern day but we could easily dilute power for governments to community levels. That would break bureaucracy up and people would start finding freedom again.

Not necessarily. You look at any ecosystem. Each organism occupies a niche in that ecosystem. We are occupying a niche, too.

I wasn't talking about our worldline, i was talking about times we cannot see because they are totally seperate to ours (the infinite universe).

Lol, we used to agree on so much, Tom...what's changed?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I found something i loved, philosophy. I still agree with about 13% of what you agree with ash. It's better than nothing

[Ash]

You still are not getting me. Religion doesn't equal spirituality. It's supposed to be a spiritual guide, but it's so fucked up it's doing the opposite and being used for human laws rather than reasoning. People don't care anyone, BECAUSE THAT IS THE AIM. No God = No hope = Fear = Power to others. Get it? Spirituality is not the belief in god, it's the reasoning to your existance and understanding the possibilies why you are here.

OK, I'm understanding you now. It still doesn't really answer what your take on 'spirituality' is, but I see your point.
However, just because I don't believe in God doesn't mean that I have no hope. I want to accomplish things in life, because I'm convinced that once I'm dead that's it. However, if I die, so be it. I sure as hell don't fear death. I want to make something of myself, whether that's inside or outside of a system that's right or wrong. It's the world I live in, and therefore I'd better make the best of it. While I may not agree with it, I sure as hell can't change it on my own. The same as the guy in 1984 couldn't change it on his own.

People in power perhaps? Foolish people whom ignore whats going on because they would rather take on bribery from an easy system such as capitalism, which soon enough will be destroyed itself. Knowledge is power, power is responsibility. See where this doesn't align with any of this "power to the people -democracy" or the responsibility of power by those whom have it?

Yes, I do. Power corrupts the minds of those who have it. That's that way it's always been and always will be. It's part of the social mindset. I can't see it changing soon, unless something very Deus Ex-esque comes to pass soon. It certainly wont' change within our lifetime. If it does, I hope not to be around when the shooting starts.

Gods rules are natural. Jesus summed it up in one line: "Love your neighbour as you love yourself." If you respect yourself, you will have respect for everyone else. If this is the same for everyone, we have peace. It's not, because of the corruption within ourselves. We are giving a materialist society and we automatically fall for it. It's a bribe. "Look at me, i got Nike, Innit" "i own 100 houses in the carribean." All gains and losses. One persons gain is anothers loss, fuck the rest, it means nothing. The idea of living by "gods rules", is infact living by rules that respect everyones free will. We don't respect everyones free will so it corrupts the entire system and it all starts from a mans most greedy lust, power.

True enough, but I don't believe I've ever imposed upon anyone anything they couldn't say 'no' to. Just because I want a bit of cash to my name, perhaps get a nice pad doesn't mean I'm damaging anyone else.

Free will is whatever you want it to be, really. Life itself shapes your personality. Even now as we speak your psyche is being moulded like putty.

I'd love for everyone to have a 20-bedroom house, a Ferrari on the drive and all the many other luxuries. I'd love for equality, but in what society, be it human or otherwise, are all the individuals of the society equal? We aren't MEANT to be equal. There will always be some more equal than others, people who are favoured by those in power, people who are smarter and more cunning. I agree, the perfect world is barred from us by man's lust for power and wealth, but that is human nature, not the ills of democracy, the government or anything else.

Want me to clarify? "Conspiracy against spirituality" - Power. Everytime someone becomes lustful, for gains and wins they disconnect themselves further from the truth. That is the conspiracy, because it bribes people to be ignorant with "bliss." It may not have been intentional, or it may have been intentional, who knows. All i know is, it's just happening and i'm part of it.

Exactly; you're part of it. Same as I am, same as everyone. Even the most devout buddhist or communist must realise that, for now, there's someone going to be above them in society.

Perhaps once one or both of us are rich, and money is no longer an object or a want/need, perhaps then our minds will be cleared, as there'll be nothing else we need to survive the world we live in.

No it won't, philisophy doesn't come to any conclusions. It just leaves open the possibilites. So how can you indoctrinate? Indoctrination requires conclusions and manipulated knowledge - the sense someone has gained from it. Philosophy just gives people the feeling of self contentment because they are happy with what they know, that is nothing.

It indoctrinates, because you're force-feeding them this idea that it works. It basically says: "be happy with your lot, don't try to better yourself in any way and just go with the flow of everything."

That's not my style, as you well know. Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of trying to advance myself spiritually, and try to discuss intangible matters, but I prefer not to be just content with where I am. I didn't waste the past ten years just to give up now.

Maybe with the newer religions such as christianity and islam, because they are all powerbases. Christianity was most likely manipulated back in the time after jesus, during the roman empire for control. Christians wanting to start their own power and domination. Sort of leads to how rome fell apart to internal corruption and how christianity gradually took over. It was intentional, christianity was manipulated so people could exploit god for their own gains. Your looking too far to the modern day christianity. If you need to find the truth, you must return to the source (damn the matrix ).

It doesn't matter where in history you look. Anyone who has EVER been deviant from the principal religion has been seen as an outcast. Even in the days when Rome had numerous gods, or when Greece did, or the barbarian/celtic pagans...when Rome conquered, it converted others to its own faith.
Christianity's methods are nothing new...Do you think the sons of Mars really cared about the beliefs of others? No! They believed they were heresy. Sure, they annexed the other beliefs' gods, but they bastardised them and made them subsidiary to their own native gods (assuming they didn't just destroy the heathen gods without trace). Know why? To subjugate. They knew that the conquered had a chance of still believing in their gods (even though they hadn't smiled on them), so they made the 'heathen' gods inferior and so asserted their dominance on the faith.

That's not the only example, no doubt.

Exactly! Thats why christianity/islam is so corrupt today, because again its down to one thing. Power. They corrupt a religion that preached self realisation and wisdom into a source of power. Can't you see how the world is made up? The vatican is just a secret society, again the most corrupt will of man comes out, power.

And anyway, what difference are the rules of god than the rules and laws we live by and set ourselves? Nothing. Power, it's what makes the illuminati conspiracy theory so much more possible.

BUT THE RELIGIONS HAVE BEEN CORRUPT FROM THE VERY BEGINNING!
Argh. Any religion knows it has power over its followers, purely because they are following it. If you follow it, you dont' question it. Again this isn't anything new. Ever since man first began to bow to the sun and moon he has signed himself to believe in some divine being. Therefore he has himself brought upon the inferiority complex and the fear of nothing better. Just because Christianity and Islam are modern variants, you can't say they're somehow less pure than the same bullshit that went by another name 1000 years ago. People were no more tolerant back then than they are today.

The fact that Jesus was crucified for being an outspoken Jew when the Romans still believed in Mars, Jupiter and Saturn proves this. What did the Romans ever do for us? They gave us persecution under a deitic banner. No doubt they weren't the first.

Socrates did, he had nothing to gain. He wasn't ashamed of his poverty, neither should you.

I'm not saying become a bum, lol. Do what it takes to survive, get a nice house, have a family, teach your wisdom to your kids. Thats modern day. I'm just saying don't get carried away (which you personally wouldn't, but there are pigs in this world who do) by materials and gains. It only leads down a path than no one likes. Greed.

I'm not ashamed of poverty. I just realise the limitations that it brings in the modern world. Therefore, I don't WANT to be impoverished.

I want to do more than survive, exist and while out my days in some dead-end job in a fucking factory. Maybe that makes me greedy, the desire to be above somebody, but I've worked damned hard these past ten years, to get to where I currently am, and hopefully to my end job, which I've concluded is to try and be a counsellor and cure the crackpots of the world I'll start with you! j/k

Of course, neither would i. I'm sick of my own town, but then again i realise it means nothing, just strengthens my will and ideals.

But if you follow your ideals, you'll quit college and never leave your town. You'd be happy with your lot and never do anything else.

Bit of a contradiction there.

I get ya, but then again its not about what *you* want. It's about realising what *you* want doesn't matter. I starred the "you" word because its down to personalisation, what our society does to you. Makes you feel all alone and isolated in a world that is already against you.

Ehm...again, you tell me that I should be content with this squalour, yet just a couple of paragraphs ago you told me to get a nice house and not get carried away.

I don't owe the world anything. I just want to do well, and I'm sure any kids I might have wouldn't thank me for coming so far only to drop it now and be content with my lot. They'd much rather me have a few amenities and luxuries.

I don't plan to become a billionaire (though I wouldn't mind that ). Never have. I just want to have a life of reasonable comfort. My only real wants or desires are to have an Aston on the drive and a loving darling woman to share my life with, and the opportunity to travel to the wide and wonderful places of the world. I don't fancy being stuck in Redfearn's glass factory down the road, plzkthx.

Of course, but then again, who knows what happens in the future? 10 years can have a huge amount of chance, it can bring a major amount of change, just like 1945 did. Either way if i taught kids of course i teach them what i'm told too, but as a history teacher you always find the oppotunity to raise awareness of other subjects to another level. It's not indoctrination, it's just explaining opinions are not the truth.

History was never about that when I was at school. All we got to do was copy off the board. There was no discussion.

Frankly, IMO the past is the past. It should be laid to rest, and we should be more concerned about how we're fucking up the planet and one another's lives, and how to put an end to the ills of the world. We won't do that by looking to the Russian Revolution, the Vietnam War or the Norman Conquest.

God means many things, you just haven't made your mind up on what it is yet. You prefer to deny it exists because you don't like the manipulation of god and cannot get your head around whats going on. Obviously thats why you deny god. This is the test, can people still see god through the enormous stockpiles of shit that has built up over the centuries and intentionally clouded our vision.

You don't know that.
I deny God for the following:
1) He hath never proven to me that He exists. If he does that, I'll believe in Him. I'll do whatever the hell He wants me to do if he does that...
2) I don't like the idea that I have to answer to something intangible. I have enough people with power over me (ie, governments, etc). The last thing I need or want is another rung on the ladder. Particularly a rung I couldn't myself climb if I so desired, and it removes any chance I have of actually being in control of my life to have Him influencing my every move. If I want to kill 10 people, commit adultery with 40 other women and steal everything bar the shirt my neighbour wears, then by Christ, I'll do it, fully aware of the consequences that will ensue and willing to accept them (by committing the act I agree that I am aware of and willing to accept them). Incase you haven't noticed, I have this psychopathic hatred of being told what to do with my life. I don't mind following instructions at work or whatnot, but I sure as hell won't be told how to run my life, even if my way of running life runs directly parallel to the people who are trying to tell me what to do.
3) I just plain as don't want an afterlife. If it's everlasting bliss, I'll do the fuck without it. He can shove it up His divine and omniscient arse.

You are insignificant all that matters if you find yourself.

Insignificant to the universe and The Grand Scheme Of Things, yes, but to myself, in my subjective world, I consider myself to be quite important, actually.

A great deal, because they stop looking to others for "truth", they are content with their own truth. You have to decide your own truth, i can't tell you what i believe, that would be manipulating your thought to try and indoctrinate you to my own belief. Isn't that where this mess all started out?

Heh, but if people stop looking for the truth because they've found it, what then? What'll people do with their 'insignificant' little existences?

No need to destroy the world, people just need to start respecting themselves and others. They need to stop being slaves to a corrupt system and deny the bullshit that the system is feeding their minds. Disconnect themselves from the matrix. I'm half way there, but i still feel i need more and it will take a huge amount of work, who knows, maybe i'm too reliant on this system. Maybe i'm waiting for something to happen just like everyone else instead of using signs.

I do see your point, you know on a lot of it...but how can people do this? We're all reliant on the system purely because we've been born into it, we've lived with it for so long. If we respect others, that's not exactly going to bring down the corruption of the world...

Of course, but you give them experience in the field by actually getting them to do it. Not sitting in a god damn classroom reading up on it. That doesn't help at all. Why do so many kids fear leaving school, it's because they learnt nothing from it. It's useless. It's being used for brainwashing rather than actually equipping people with the knowledge they need to progress in this society.

Granted, the stuff they learn is useless. But telling them stories and teaching them philosophy isn't going to help them progress. Teaching them the skills of their chosen trade will.

Perhaps society should be restructured to something like Empyrion (a book I'm reading...not really too important if you've not read it)...but then again, that system ran itself down, too. As all systems will. It seems like the only thing to look forward to is death.

If God makes Himself tangible, I'll believe in Him. Till then, he's just a fairy story that's been going since the beginning of time to explain the unexplainable, and to keep society in line.

He is tangible, you just don't understand him. Stop following the bullshit society tells you about god, as long as you are reliant on others answers to God (the manipulated version), you'll never find your own truth.

If i told you a system that i know that works and would work people would call me a tree hugging hippy. LOL. Nah seriously now, the indians had a great system before, obviously not for modern day but we could easily dilute power for governments to community levels. That would break bureaucracy up and people would start finding freedom again.

It would also isolate people to their community. The world would descend into a new dark age and become wholly insular. I don't call that 'free', to be a willing prisoner inside my own city walls.

I found something i loved, philosophy. I still agree with about 13% of what you agree with ash. It's better than nothing

Lol, this discussion's interesting, to say the least. Wish I knew what the fuck you were smoking reading... j/k dude.

[Tom]

However, just because I don't believe in God doesn't mean that I have no hope.

Of course, but it makes people fear death more because they feel thats it. Meaning they are more likely to do what other people want.

I want to accomplish things in life, because I'm convinced that once I'm dead that's it.

Of course, but are you accomplishing things within the prison walls, or things outside it?

However, if I die, so be it. I sure as hell don't fear death. I want to make something of myself, whether that's inside or outside of a system that's right or wrong. It's the world I live in, and therefore I'd better make the best of it. While I may not agree with it, I sure as hell can't change it on my own. The same as the guy in 1984 couldn't change it on his own.

Of course, but this system won't last forever. It's likely we will see a major breakdown in international relations during our lifetime, maybe even the next decade.

Yes, I do. Power corrupts the minds of those who have it. That's that way it's always been and always will be. It's part of the social mindset. I can't see it changing soon, unless something very Deus Ex-esque comes to pass soon. It certainly wont' change within our lifetime. If it does, I hope not to be around when the shooting starts.

Lets just call it a hunch, but signs are already showing the cracks in economic and social pressures throughout the western world. And why wouldn't you want to be around when it happens?

True enough, but I don't believe I've ever imposed upon anyone anything they couldn't say 'no' to. Just because I want a bit of cash to my name, perhaps get a nice pad doesn't mean I'm damaging anyone else.

Of course not, the pen is mighter than the sword

I'd love for everyone to have a 20-bedroom house, a Ferrari on the drive and all the many other luxuries. I'd love for equality, but in what society, be it human or otherwise, are all the individuals of the society equal? We aren't MEANT to be equal. There will always be some more equal than others, people who are favoured by those in power, people who are smarter and more cunning. I agree, the perfect world is barred from us by man's lust for power and wealth, but that is human nature, not the ills of democracy, the government or anything else.

Equality isn't something found though money ash, equality is a mind set and freedom. Equal rights. Once anyone starts suggesting they own any materials thats where freedom goes out the window.

As for human nature, maybe so, maybe that is the test that we have to prove.

Perhaps once one or both of us are rich, and money is no longer an object or a want/need, perhaps then our minds will be cleared, as there'll be nothing else we need to survive the world we live in.

LOL it's unlikely i'd get rich, i don't really have the intentions to do so. I'd rather watch, wait and learn and then teach.

It indoctrinates, because you're force-feeding them this idea that it works. It basically says: "be happy with your lot, don't try to better yourself in any way and just go with the flow of everything."

Not really, you don't suggest it works, you just suggest it gives and open mind and it allows them to make their own conclusions if any.

That's not my style, as you well know. Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of trying to advance myself spiritually, and try to discuss intangible matters, but I prefer not to be just content with where I am. I didn't waste the past ten years just to give up now.

LOL, i know how you feel. I'm still going for teaching through Uni. I'm not gunna become a bum on benefits that sits on street corners mediating and preaching about how the worlds going to end. LOL. *thumbs up with smile*

BUT THE RELIGIONS HAVE BEEN CORRUPT FROM THE VERY BEGINNING!
Argh. Any religion knows it has power over its followers, purely because they are following it. If you follow it, you dont' question it. Again this isn't anything new. Ever since man first began to bow to the sun and moon he has signed himself to believe in some divine being. Therefore he has himself brought upon the inferiority complex and the fear of nothing better. Just because Christianity and Islam are modern variants, you can't say they're somehow less pure than the same bullshit that went by another name 1000 years ago. People were no more tolerant back then than they are today.

The fact that Jesus was crucified for being an outspoken Jew when the Romans still believed in Mars, Jupiter and Saturn proves this. What did the Romans ever do for us? They gave us persecution under a deitic banner. No doubt they weren't the first.

The romans showed us a society similar to ours. Ignorance of the people more worried about their own ideals and dominance. Roman society was also very successful too, but it fell when christians started manipulated jedaism to create christianity and start their own societies.

But if you follow your ideals, you'll quit college and never leave your town. You'd be happy with your lot and never do anything else.

Bit of a contradiction there.

No, not nessecarily. I still need to progress in this society to learn more. I'm not going to learn anything sitting in a room all my life and the only UV rays i ever see are from a computer screen

History was never about that when I was at school. All we got to do was copy off the board. There was no discussion.

Frankly, IMO the past is the past. It should be laid to rest, and we should be more concerned about how we're fucking up the planet and one another's lives, and how to put an end to the ills of the world. We won't do that by looking to the Russian Revolution, the Vietnam War or the Norman Conquest.

"Those who forget the past, are condemned to repeat it again." Relevance: We let fascism continue again, we are failed to repeat the past. (WWI, WWII, any question why people predict WWIII for 2012/2015?)

The past tells us a huge amount of our mistakes, we still haven't learnt from the 20th century, so we are going to see a huge amount of it again.

Insignificant to the universe and The Grand Scheme Of Things, yes, but to myself, in my subjective world, I consider myself to be quite important, actually.

In the materialist world, your a slave, just like most of us. Thats an important role yes, for the rich and powerful. We may get somewhere and become less slavelike, but we may never see true freedom where our choices are solely our choices and no one elses.

Heh, but if people stop looking for the truth because they've found it, what then? What'll people do with their 'insignificant' little existences?

There is infinite truth, it just takes a powerful mind to imagine it, in an infinite universe. Humans know nothing yet about their positions. Hopefully we can once we really get focused on things rather than spending billions killing each other.

I do see your point, you know on a lot of it...but how can people do this? We're all reliant on the system purely because we've been born into it, we've lived with it for so long. If we respect others, that's not exactly going to bring down the corruption of the world...

True, so we need the change to start happening now so our children can be borned into a new revolutionary age where they make their own choices forward not the choices the state gives them. Chance doesn't come from a group of people changing their mind, it comes from generation to generation. We certainly won't see the best change, but there will be a change sooner or later.

Granted, the stuff they learn is useless. But telling them stories and teaching them philosophy isn't going to help them progress. Teaching them the skills of their chosen trade will.

Thats what i meant by "wisdom." They are learning from it and more likely to remember key parts of it. Philosophy is just for open minds, its a different matter all together. It won't happen now, but maybe one day it will start getting done.

Perhaps society should be restructured to something like Empyrion (a book I'm reading...not really too important if you've not read it)...but then again, that system ran itself down, too. As all systems will. It seems like the only thing to look forward to is death.

True.

It would also isolate people to their community. The world would descend into a new dark age and become wholly insular. I don't call that 'free', to be a willing prisoner inside my own city walls.

Untrue because a federal government would still exist, just far less powerful. And peoples tax money could get where it's needed. Not the army but the communities. Police would be more of a decentralised job, hospitals could improve if you have more of them. Sadly i think the "ideal" society couldn't work unless there was a world war lol.

And you wouldn't be a prisoner, you'd be able to go where you want. What's stopping you. I'm just saying we have more local councils not prison walls with gun turrets on top.

Lol, this discussion's interesting, to say the least. Wish I knew what the fuck you were smoking reading... j/k dude.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It's something i made in my mind, a cross between cannabis and biscuits. I love biscuits

[Ash]

Attaaaaack!!!1

Of course, but it makes people fear death more because they feel thats it. Meaning they are more likely to do what other people want.

As said, I don't fear it. A little death isn't going to stop me.

Of course, but are you accomplishing things within the prison walls, or things outside it?

Eh?

Of course, but this system won't last forever. It's likely we will see a major breakdown in international relations during our lifetime, maybe even the next decade.

Oh yay. Nukeyular War, nyuk nyuk nyuk.

And why wouldn't you want to be around when it happens?

See above. That's why.

I don't fancy being involved in a war, plzkthx. I'll just find some secluded area and wait it out.

Of course not, the pen is mighter than the sword

What's that quote got to do with anything?

LOL it's unlikely i'd get rich, i don't really have the intentions to do so. I'd rather watch, wait and learn and then teach.

I hate kids. Therefore teaching isn't really an optio-...oh wait, most teachers hate kids these days

Tell you what, I'll do you a deal. When you send the kids crazy in depression, send them to me and I'll cure them for you. Call it a mutual benefit partnership

The romans showed us a society similar to ours. Ignorance of the people more worried about their own ideals and dominance. Roman society was also very successful too, but it fell when christians started manipulated jedaism to create christianity and start their own societies.

Ah, so now you agree that christians did start off as Jews.

What did the romans ever do for us? Religious intolerance

However religious intolerance isn't the downfall of society. It's the birthplace of every war, but the real enemy isn't the Muslim, the Sikh, the Catholic or the Protestant. It's, as you say, lust for power, and the wrong people getting power because the right people are too low down the ladder to get chance.

No, not nessecarily. I still need to progress in this society to learn more. I'm not going to learn anything sitting in a room all my life and the only UV rays i ever see are from a computer screen

Well, stop professing that 'school and college teach you nothing', if you even admit you need to progress in this society to learn more Direct polar opposition there. And google is the world's great oracle

"Those who forget the past, are condemned to repeat it again." Relevance: We let fascism continue again, we are failed to repeat the past. (WWI, WWII, any question why people predict WWIII for 2012/2015?)

The past tells us a huge amount of our mistakes, we still haven't learnt from the 20th century, so we are going to see a huge amount of it again.

Point conceded. However, we need to address the problems of the world in the perspective of the present, rather than looking to the past for answers, when all the past is is a subjective memory. The world is a very different place from what it was in the 1930s.

In the materialist world, your a slave, just like most of us. Thats an important role yes, for the rich and powerful. We may get somewhere and become less slavelike, but we may never see true freedom where our choices are solely our choices and no one elses.

Which, let's face it, isn't going to happen.

True, so we need the change to start happening now so our children can be borned into a new revolutionary age where they make their own choices forward not the choices the state gives them. Chance doesn't come from a group of people changing their mind, it comes from generation to generation. We certainly won't see the best change, but there will be a change sooner or later.

*Deus Ex theme tune plays*

Untrue because a federal government would still exist, just far less powerful. And peoples tax money could get where it's needed. Not the army but the communities. Police would be more of a decentralised job, hospitals could improve if you have more of them. Sadly i think the "ideal" society couldn't work unless there was a world war lol.

It wouldn't happen until all the world was united as one great true Soviet. So, yes, you're gonna need one hell of a world war.

And you wouldn't be a prisoner, you'd be able to go where you want. What's stopping you. I'm just saying we have more local councils not prison walls with gun turrets on top.

I wish Barnsley had gun turrets. I wouldn't mind jacking one to knock off a few chavs and smack-rats

It's something i made in my mind, a cross between cannabis and biscuits. I love biscuits

Technical term: A space cake.

[Tom]

As said, I don't fear it. A little death isn't going to stop me.

ROFL, of course, you said. Well everyone does fear death, it's natural to survival, but obviously the fear is soley for survival, not because of travelling to the unknown.

Eh?

Do you intend to stand in with a herd of sheep and accomplish things inside the herd or outside?

See above. That's why.

I don't fancy being involved in a war, plzkthx. I'll just find some secluded area and wait it out.

No one does, but if it happened, your telling me you'd hide away? You couldn't survive hiding, it would be more destructive than WWII because of factors such as famine, drought and disease.

What's that quote got to do with anything?

Writing is far more powerful on peoples creative mind than war.

I hate kids. Therefore teaching isn't really an optio-...oh wait, most teachers hate kids these days

Most teachers have never experienced anything in life other than "OMG Education!" They know nothing and are just really useless.

Tell you what, I'll do you a deal. When you send the kids crazy in depression, send them to me and I'll cure them for you. Call it a mutual benefit partnership

Sure, as long as i get 90% of the profit as it will be my work. You'll be seeing hundreds of kids daily who fear their parents are conspiring to hijack their minds with poisoned dinners and others who think the world has ended and are unsure where to go.

Ah, so now you agree that christians did start off as Jews.

Not nessecarily, put it's likely.

What did the romans ever do for us? Religious intolerance

Romans were amazing at public health and management, a huge amount of their teachings got lost in the downfall of the roman empire.

However religious intolerance isn't the downfall of society. It's the birthplace of every war, but the real enemy isn't the Muslim, the Sikh, the Catholic or the Protestant. It's, as you say, lust for power, and the wrong people getting power because the right people are too low down the ladder to get chance.

No one should have power over millions of people. The power lies in the minds of the people it's just it's been suppressed to reliance on others to tell them what to do. No one knows what they want. All they know is where they want to be, but don't know how to aquire it.

Well, stop professing that 'school and college teach you nothing', if you even admit you need to progress in this society to learn more Direct polar opposition there. And google is the world's great oracle

They do teach you nothing... What else needs to be said?

Point conceded. However, we need to address the problems of the world in the perspective of the present, rather than looking to the past for answers, when all the past is is a subjective memory. The world is a very different place from what it was in the 1930s.

Maybe so, but the answers still lay in events of the past. If we were to ignore events no one would question anything. We cannot repair today until we repair our knowledge of yesterday.

It wouldn't happen until all the world was united as one great true Soviet. So, yes, you're gonna need one hell of a world war.

No, because the intention is a world wide soviet. I'm moving more and more against centralisation of anything, economy, social power, etc.

I wish Barnsley had gun turrets. I wouldn't mind jacking one to knock off a few chavs and smack-rats

Hastings needs them more to keep the chavs inside the town center. It's cannot be saved so we need to keep them inside to save the outside.

Technical term: A space cake.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sounds good, mongs you out as well as tastes good *Cooking class* A star!

[Kazyumi]

As said, I don't fear it. A little death isn't going to stop me.

ROFL, of course, you said. Well everyone does fear death, it's natural to survival, but obviously the fear is soley for survival, not because of travelling to the unknown.

Why should we fear death anyways, we're worrying our entire lives about when death comes, but really, when your dead you won't even be able to worry about. So why worry about dying? You wont be feeling it when your dead, because your dead. And when your alive, you'll actually be thinking about your own life instead of living in fear for it.
(btw I based this on some theory of a philosopher I heard of my philosophy teach's. Just cant remember the name, dammit.)

[MSpencer]

Bots invaded the thread, cleaned up.

[Comrade Kal]

I fear growing old more than I do death.

[Pyth]

That is actually pretty logical.

[Soul]

After reading this I am shocked and disgusted about this fundimentalist guy and all the others like him I think they shouldn't have kids to spread there bullshit to anyone else.

[Drewry]

What right do you have to decide who has kids and who doesn't.

[Pastinator]

In no way do i agree with that man, BUT i say he shoudl be allowed to say this. Why? because otherwise we are going against the very standpoint we want. It is freedon of speech and freedom of self that let gays become (at least mostly) accpeted by society. Freedom of speech is imperitve to let people become accepted. This is not religions fault. This is an insane man hiding behind religion to preach madness, just like hitler preached his madness through science. Even though i am an ardent aitheist i still believe that religion is a force that can allow a lot of good to happen. We all remeber the crusades, but how long did they last?and christians nowadays are disgusted by them. We always think of bad points but how much good has religion done? Islam stopped female infant genocide in history yet we still remeber the bad points such as jihadists and the little rights given to muslim women(dressing as they do)but remeber, muslim women only have to dress MODESTLy not in the way most people think(apologies for not knowing the real name, sari i think)it is tradition, not religion that causes this. Sorry for the rant but all the people saying stuff like his fingers should be cut off so he couldnt make these websites are stupid. Stopping freedom of speech in the name of freedom of sexuality(socially accepted by freedom of speech) seems stupid to me. I have no problem that people say that he is stupid but i DO have a problem with people being against freedom of speech.

[Pastinator]

What a queer. Twists scripture for his own racist ideology, and has lame stories like this and WTF is with him and Swedes? Someone didn't get hugged as a child.

Oh the irony!

[Soul]

What right do you have to decide who has kids and who doesn't.

I ment he shouldn't beable to continue this crap he says is all.