253 replies to this topic

[Allied General]

"We did not know about the full horror of the holocaust until afterwards." - Utter BS, Einsenhower visted the the concerntration camps, it in archive footage, look up your national one. Its the reason why USA and its allies wanted UNCONDITIONAL surrender.

The allies SHOULD have taken Berlin TOGETHER. That was the greatest mistake of the war to believe that Stalin would upheld his agreement in the Yalta Treaty.

But as we know it was too costly to take a city protected by old men and hitler youths

Actual american soldiers on the field during the day wanted to take the city, it yet gain politics being an arse.

Also after the surrender, 1000's of germans wanted to flee to escape the POW camps and pillaging would follow.

Fasicism was evil but in destroying one dictatorship we accepted another great evil which held the world in fear for 50+ years.

America and its allies wanted to get the job "done" and the morality of the western allies was of the highest believe.

Events however such as dresden, nukes and letting russia soley take berlin have a black stain upon demoracy and its ideals.

Edited by Allied General, 05 May 2005 - 10:17 AM.

[Blodo]

Japan did not participate in the holocaust so thats a matter for another story.

Another thing is that i think Germany should be split into an american part and a russian part for all time. If you put these warmongers of Europe to a cage once why let them out and let them cause more chaos?

[Allied General]

Japan did not participate in the holocaust so thats a matter for another story.

Another thing is that i think Germany should be split into an american part and a russian part for all time. If you put these warmongers of Europe to a cage once why let them out and let them cause more chaos?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

dude the extremists have basically died out and the economy although poor is stable.

Also there is a momument, a simple arrangment of blocks to continually remember the jewish holocaust.

Were not in the 1930's anymore.

WWII only happened because the allies didn't "finish" the job like the gulf war only germany was still a viable threat.

[MSpencer]

After they were split in half, left with no army, and had NATO and Soviet Bloc troops on their soil?

[Comrade Kal]

It was in the days of imperialism, and colonialism, if you left them with too little they would have been invaded before Christmas.

[Blodo]

Yeh ectremists died out, then what is the neo nazi movement then? Theyre gaining more and more popularity by every year yet everyone keeps joking themselves that theyre not a threat anymore. The similarities to the pre-ww2 years are astounding really.

[Silent_Killa]

"We did not know about the full horror of the holocaust until afterwards." - Utter BS, Einsenhower visted the the concerntration camps, it in archive footage, look up your national one. Its the reason why USA and its allies wanted UNCONDITIONAL surrender.

Perhaps he did, but keep in mind that the jews conditions were ones that slowly worsened, the final solution wasn't implemented until around D-Day. Also, do you really think that the concentration camps weren't cleaned up beforehand? The full horror of the holocaust was not known until afterwards, why else would the Germans go through so much trouble to destroy the evidence?

The allies SHOULD have taken Berlin TOGETHER. That was the greatest mistake of the war to believe that Stalin would upheld his agreement in the Yalta Treaty.

But as we know it was too costly to take a city protected by old men and hitler youths 

Actual american soldiers on the field during the day wanted to take the city, it yet gain politics being an arse.

I hear a lot of talk, you order your men to take that risk, besides I doubt there was much communication at the time, relations had already begun to worsen

Also after the surrender, 1000's of germans wanted to flee to escape the POW camps and pillaging would follow.

it's a fact that Germans literally ran west as the Russians were closeing in order to surrender to the American/British troops instead.

Fasicism was evil but in destroying one dictatorship we accepted another great evil which held the world in fear for 50+ years.

America and its allies wanted to get the job "done" and the morality of the western allies was of the highest believe.

Events however such as dresden, nukes and letting russia soley take berlin have a black stain upon demoracy and its ideals.

meh, what were we to do? Fight the USSR? After they took massive losses for the same cause?

[Blodo]

Actually the Allies didnt take berlin together because it was an agreement with Russia. Every german would rather run to the west then face the russian gulags, therefore i think it would be even better if Russia took the entirety of Germany. Call me a bastard but sorry i have hatred for fascism and only a show of power can persuade it out of the knuckleheads that believe in it.

[Allied General]

Also I said the Allies SHOULD HAVE TAKEN BERLIN TOGETHER

we gave them too much of the credit.

Also the Yalta agreement was left in tatters hence the iron curtain.

People talk about D-Day and the british and americans but lets face it russia did most of the dirty war in ridding the world of europe nazism.

The original treat was thrown out all together, the iron curtain east and west berlin shouldn't have existed in the 1st place.

You cannot punish an entire race because of 1 man and his idiotic vision.

Also the views on the americans wanting to take the city is from recent interviews, currently history, bbc channels are have reflective reports on the effects such as hitlers bunker for instance.

Blodo you probably hate the germans a lot for the acts they did when the occupied poland etc but the communists weren't better.

They sent decorated communist war hero's who were POW's to siberian "camps"

Edited by Allied General, 06 May 2005 - 12:13 PM.

[Blodo]

No need to teach me history man, it is obvious the stalinists did it not communists. The difference between the two was that Stalin was one bad mother, and he had no scrupules to kill off an entire nation, while after his death with Khrushchev ascending it was all going for the better. And while i think that Stalin was a paranoiac etc everyone has to admit that his strategy main led us all to victory, the thing that most people believe as Russia going traitor (the ribbentrop-molotov pact) was a desperate measure for the Russians to gain time because Stalin KNEW the conflict with hitler cant be avoided. He needed approx 4 years at the time of signing the pact to mobilise the Red Army. If Hitler gave him those 4 years then the germans wouldnt even cross the Russian border. I know Stalin wanted power too but he liberated whole of europe in the process and if e.g. Trotsky had his way upwards like Lenin wanted then Russia would fall since Trotsky was impulsive and hed declare war on Germany like overnight then get invaded and allow Moscow to be taken.

Meanwhile after Stalins death it all begun to clear up. Khrushchev liberalised the laws and it was really coming for the better. Of course the west side of the curtain still emitted much propaganda about it, but it WAS getting better then. And i sware if the Soviet Union didnt make one mistake, eastern europe would still be socialist and happy about it. The mistake was trying to keep the republics on short leash, as everyone wanted to think for themselves. Noone really wanted to overthrow socialism, they just wanted to be independent to Russia. The things the media were shouting back then is so bullshit it almost hurts me. Enough of the essay, ill probably get whacked by right wing believers now. I dont care cause thats my view on the situation.

And about Germany, still look at them today. They actually have the guts to request reparations for Germans who have been exiled from Poland after the war. What about the "polish concentration camps" thing? Them trying to blame Poland for starting the war? Most of these people are hostile towards every jew, pole or russian there is. And i just cant sleep right when i think that we ever forgave them. Again thats just my opinion etc.

[Allied General]

No need to teach me history man, it is obvious the stalinists did it not communists.

It was the same with the germans it was nazism, scapegoats are a great way to rally people together, like u said you can't base a entire nation on one people's ideal.

Also somehow i don't think having the KGB (basically Gestapo) was a good idea

The communist allocation system also sucked big time cos it over produced and created a black market cos it distribution sucked. i.e. russia made XXX amount of shoes yet could only give X shoes to XXXXX of population.

Also it that society there is no spark to achieve more cause the state provides so you have this downward spiral of waste.

China, Vietnam are growing really well cos of western intervention.

Cuba is getter better due to increased liberty.

You could have never expect russian to give away demoracy or expose them to "western" ideals.

Edited by Allied General, 10 May 2005 - 10:48 AM.

[MSpencer]

So wait, that's why Castro still has about 300 embargoes on him, Vietnam is still a pit with a pretty much slaughtered economy, China is still developing better nuclear weapons, AND Russia is still ruled by an ex-KGB officer who seems to always win elections by landslides?

Edited by MSpencer, 10 May 2005 - 11:14 AM.

[Comrade Kal]

All of them are preferable to Bush. Vietnam never was a strong country, and the reason their economy isn't doing too well is not helped when it gets the shit blown out of it by a far bigger country and chemicals dropped all over the landscape that still do damage today. Cuba pose absolutely no threat to anyone, and not trading with them is purely pettiness.

[Blodo]

It did pose a threat when the soviet union was active but since its like 10 years from the fall of it, its just makes it clear how much cuba is being despised of just because theyre still communist. Some people should face it that no nukes will be staged at cuba ever now that Russia aint communist and doesnt care about it.

[Allied General]

It did pose a threat when the soviet union was active but since its like 10 years from the fall of it, its just makes it clear how much cuba is being despised of just because theyre still communist. Some people should face it that no nukes will be staged at cuba ever now that Russia aint communist and doesnt care about it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

exactly and when the country is attempting to grow and stablise, I don't see support from western countries (especially USA)

MSpencer, stop going on the political high horse of PR.

Also I don't see Russia doing missile tests off your coast or mobilising there armies for immiment invasion.

Spence would your country please just removed your heads from the barrels of your guns please for like an 2nd?

Edited by Allied General, 12 May 2005 - 11:24 AM.

[theliberator]

at Blodo:

I don't know what gives you the right to say, that Germany should still be split into 2 parts.
Do you really think that would make any difference, regarding the neo-nazis??

Also the German's that are not aged 70 or older, never experienced national-socialism (just like you), so why do you think any German should be interested in forgiveness??
You can't forgive me anything, because I've never done anything to you or your people.
Same with about 85% of the Germans, the rest is 70 or older (and therefore won't be a thread in the future) and about 2-3% are Neo-Nazis (and 95% of them can't count to three, without using their fingers).

I think you have a quite similar amount of loonatics in your country and I'm sure every country does.

[Blodo]

I don't know what gives you the right to say, that Germany should still be split into 2 parts.
Do you really think that would make any difference, regarding the neo-nazis??

Yes i do think it would make a difference. At least they wouldnt have their national pride to start that movement again.

Same with about 85% of the Germans, the rest is 70 or older (and therefore won't be a  thread in the future) and about 2-3% are Neo-Nazis (and 95% of them can't count to three, without using their fingers).

Thats a big miscalculation. Youre just like the others, not really seeing the numbers behind the nazi movement. An awful lot of people sympathize with them, but they are not counted since they dont explicitly belong to them. Nationalism is something people turn to these days when governments appear to not give a shit about individual lives. So either just that or if parties are flawed they will spread nationalist propaganda just so they get more votes, kinda like the issue here in Poland where one party makes their motto "Russia must be stopped" and are finding more and more issues against them, like they didnt have more important things to do, like running a country perhaps.

Also its the issue with most young people not being cared by by the government. In the XX century there were always some kind of irganisations that would give young people things to do, like the scouts or something. People joined that. Today there is no organisations like that. So the neonazis make them. Yes there is a perfectly legal neonazi movement in Poland for example with which im just pissed at the government that they dont shut down something so explicitly emanating with nationalism.

I think you have a quite similar amount of loonatics in your country and I'm sure every country does.

And you are right, and i hate them equally as much for heralding something as preposterous and criminal as nazism.

[Aircraftkiller]

Funny how you hate your own kind, they think just like you do. There is very little difference between National Socialism and your beliefs as you've presented them thus far.

[Blodo]

Doesnt everyone here hate nazism? Oh yes of course lets take a liberal approach to them so they can grow a fourth reich. Thats what everyone was trying to do prior to ww2. Guess what, it didnt work.

[Allied General]

socialism sucks?

middle men and well off people burn,

power to the workers!