5260 replies to this topic

[ApOcOlYpS]

You could say "Yeah, but what if the map only has choke point?" but that just means the map is balanced in favor of turtles

I would go so far to say it's a bad map. 3-4 choke points make for interesting games.

As it stands right now the improved health and range mean that defenses are superior in a fixed position

It's almost like they're good at defending....sorry, had to do that.

Now onto the ACTUAL reply.

You have to remember that your play style can influence your opinion of balance... if 2 turtles play and build up huge armies before trying to commit to battle then heavy defenses will appear over powered

Actually, I think that's our issue more than anything. We've gotten to the point where all four of us tend to just hole up in our base. I've tried rushing a few times, but after the first 5 or so minutes I just kind of give up with that if I haven't won (high tier stuff is SO tempting). I may try just getting to tech 1-2 and then fighting there for a while to see what it's like and how well it works. You've rather convinced me though. I'll leave T2 defenses as is until more testing has been done on it (specifically with trying to NOT turtle).

Although I must say I love my way of playing superweapons ("Oh, I only have 150 extra power....MORE REACTORS!). Not exactly economical, but I don't run out of power.

[Pendaelose]

in PvP I love rush combat with lots of troops and a mobile battle field... it works well and is a lot of fun.

in CompStomp I play the same way you've described... I bunker down hard because the AI isn't smart enough to focus on power plants. I build 12 MIRVs/ICBMs/etc and a massive rows of heavy turrets, because the AI builds 10,000 units and sends them in huge waves... as I mentioned above... that's what heavy turrets are best at... but skilled human players don't play like the AI and those massive turrets are a waste of hard earned resources when the enemy is smart enough to go around. Not to mention, if I spend all my money on 12 ICBMs no player will sit around 7 minutes waiting for dooms day... I won't live that long.


As for 1-road maps... they are a tonne of fun vs the AI, but I would never use them in PvP.


also... 5 minutes is a long game... I usually start fighting in under 60 seconds... even if it's just a skirmish. I don't aim to win in under 5 minutes (that's no fun) but I don't think the enemy should ever go unharassed for more than 30 seconds. No serious PvP I've played in the last few years has ever made it past T2.

Edited by Pendaelose, 13 March 2012 - 03:30 PM.

[ApOcOlYpS]

No serious PvP I've played in the last few years has ever made it past T2.

Whereas all of ours has made it to global regularly. I would prefer rush combat and constant fighting to what we do, just a matter of changing our playstyle.

Do you have any replays of fights in v.9 that I could take a look at?

Edited by ApOcOlYpS, 13 March 2012 - 03:48 PM.

[Pendaelose]

sadly no. I don't save replays... When I am playing ZH I'm usually modding, so the first time I make a change the replay is garbage.

[Tomeister]

I'm tired of being about to win with my army of super weapons as the supw gen when my supws are destroyed and emped by upgraded spy satellite. Alternitively, they just do it to kill my SDI cannon. It's a nightmare!
Do tech buildings respawn?

[ApOcOlYpS]

I assume you're talking about another player playing as Laser general and using the upgraded spy satellite generals power. Tech buildings don't respawn, but I feel they're too easy to kill (at least the non-superweapons ones).

That being said, I also think the spy satellite power is overpowered, and needs its duration (and so number of shots) reduced.

Also, claiming that you're about to win with your superweapons (generals powers or whatever) yet complaining that your opponent stops you with theirs is a little hypocritical don't you think?

[Tomeister]

Yes I am. Its not hypocrypical because that's the supw gens style, the research is not 'sit and bombard with unstoppable beams.' it's so annoying! It's a shame tech building don't come back, you should definitely increase their health. What do you mean 'the non-super weapon ones'?

And Pend, what did you mean on the first page of this topic, when you said 'starting from first release of remix' are the changes you listed the ones you can remember adding to Zh?

Edited by Tomeister, 15 March 2012 - 10:39 PM.

[ApOcOlYpS]

For example the ICBM is both a superweapon and a tech building. That doesn't need a massive health increase because it already has a lot of health.

Also, play as research and take satellite, ion and particle (and maybe grav) techs, and try and tell me he's not similar to superweapons. I am willing to admit that the satellite power is too strong, but there's nothing wrong with you losing buildings to generals powers or super weapons.

[Pendaelose]

Yes I am. Its not hypocrypical because that's the supw gens style, the research is not 'sit and bombard with unstoppable beams.' it's so annoying!

Actually research general is the "I'm going to customize my army to play however I want" general.

It's a shame tech building don't come back, you should definitely increase their health. What do you mean 'the non-super weapon ones'?

I think there's been a misunderstanding somehwere in the middle here... there are "Tech Buildings" as in oil refineries, hospitals, repair bays, oil rigs, etc... and there are "Tech Buildings" for unlocking units and upgrades, like the strategy center and GLA Palace.

The civilian buildings, like the oil rigs, do respawn... but it takes a while.

The strategy centers (etc) could use more health... loosing a tech building in Remix is a serious blow. I'm cool with them getting more health, so long as the final health values for every general are pretty close to each other. I did make airF general's air field extra tough though, because it is so big it takes extra damage from attacks that scatter, like artillery barrage. Also, loosing an 8 plane airfield does a lot more damage than just loosing a tech center.

And Pend, what did you mean on the first page of this topic, when you said 'starting from first release of remix' are the changes you listed the ones you can remember adding to Zh?

5000 posts ago Remix was a young mod. Those changes from Vanilla, but back before I added the escalation levels and started really building the mod into what it is now.

[Tomeister]

Your right. But what's the point in having a supw gen if the research can be it..?

[ApOcOlYpS]

Superweapons still plays differently: Better defenses, repair ability. ICBM is quite a good super weapon especially with the hydrogen bomb. Also accumulating super weapons is both faster and cheaper for superweapons general than for research (research doesn't get super weapons until T3, but SWgen gets two at T2).

[Tomeister]

I suppose. Does supw's particle armour protect it from the orbital strikes?

Edited by Tomeister, 16 March 2012 - 09:55 PM.

[Pendaelose]

orbital strikes do a different damage type, so no.

You could ask "Why have tank general if research general can be it?"

They play differently. They feel different. Not everyone likes research general. Nearly any general is capable of turtling, but Superweapon is specifically suited to it.

Reasearch general can use any play style... he can be fast, he can be a heavy hitter, he can be a turtle... his specialty is doing everything... but he will never do that thing as well as the generals who specialize in that thing...

Research General can build a great heavy tank force, but he's not as good as Tank General.
He can build siege units, but he's not as good at is Nuke general.
He can build super weapons and dig in, but he's not as good as superweapon general.
He can be a sneaky teleporting bastard, but not as well as Stealth general.

The only thing he does better than everyone else is that he can do anything *almost* as well as anyone else.

Edited by Pendaelose, 16 March 2012 - 07:25 PM.

[Tomeister]

Okay;) thanks. Are the SDI and the Leonidas mech equally matched? And I think the infantry gen should be able to lay different kInds of minefields. but cost money to avoid spamming. And does the chem gen have a toxin demo trap, I can't remember.

[Tomeister]

So, what are your ideas at the moment- so we have stuff to talk and advise you about;)

[ApOcOlYpS]

My ideas is that I have a long modeling assignment to finish. It's a busy week for me, and character modeling is possibly going to suck far more out of me than I could have imagined. That said, I'll finally learn to manage my time.

However, I'm starting to gather a "what new things I want" list, just so I can feel that I'm actually making progress. I'd like to test for mismatches, but lack patience to do so at the moment, especially since I only have one computer and so can't test on my own. Main things I'm planning on doing right now is:

1. nerve toxins gain a chance to kill vehicle pilots (brings them more in line with acids).
2. Poison's general gets a "toxin" building and has toxin requiring units (works exactly like power).
3. I want the ion aurora back!
4. Superweapons gets a weak tomohawk storm at T1 to replace the strategy center (useful for unit killing and harassing).
5. Possibly a second light tank factory for tank general, which possibly requires the level 5 generals power for enhanced production or whatever it is. I feel tanks just can't produce quick enough for some reason.

Those are my ideas for now, most of which should be easy to implement (hardest would be the toxin power).

That said, any other ideas are welcome and I'll take a look at them, which may spawn other ideas.

[Tomeister]

Cool. Would you still keep the fake strategy centre for supw?

[ApOcOlYpS]

Possibly not. If I don't, it'll be because the tomahawk storm has more health than a standard T1 tech building. But I'll have to play with it.

[Tomeister]

Ok;) does rosco help you?
I think teleporting should to to more generals!
Also, the moving fortress for the contra008 supe gen looks awesome. I think you should try and replicate it simarily:)

Edited by Tomeister, 12 April 2012 - 12:17 PM.

[Tomeister]

Is it possible to add a power which teleports units within the area- like in bfme2.
Also, do you already have the net fix which is in Contra?