385 replies to this topic

[crave22]

However, humans have always longed for more than they needed before society. Even in ancient times, jealousy and thievery were abundant. There is a human nature, and it was not created by society. It created society. Greed and treachery have run rampant throughout mankind's history, from ancient times to present day. Society amplifies this selfishness, but it has always been there. Always.

The perfect society is not capitalism. The perfect society is not communism. It is not democracy. It is not socialism. It is not feudalism. There is no perfect society. There is no perfect system of government. There never was and there never will be. There will be near misses, but no society can be perfect. Even if a man is brought up in a socialist society, taught to live with only his necessities, get along with other people all the time, and work to make the world a better place; he will always be mistrustful of others. He will always covet what others have and he doesn't. Always. There's no stopping it. Ever. Society is not the cause of human nature. It is not the solution. It is the product. A way to express and control one's greed. Man will always be corrupted by wealth, power, and greed. Whether you stick him in a communist or capitalist society, he will question authority. He will think about how he can be great. How he can make his mark. He will be human.

I realised something a long, long time ago. Human beings, for the most part, are ignorant, self-centered, greedy... things that are a plague on this Earth. I am sorry to say it, but I have lost faith in my fellow man. There are the few who are the minority on this world. But that is all they are. The few. The few selfless humans who give up their lives for the good of others. Others who couldn't care less. They're thankful one miniute, and whining the next.

I'll stop my rambling at that.

[Hostile]

LOL, a life? Free from communal work. A life that is free from "obligations" to the state. A life where I can choose to be a bum if I want. Or a captialist, if I choose.

[crave22]

Exactly my point. They'll want what they don't have, which is more than the minimum they will live with.

[C1E/\/\E/\/+]

However, humans have always longed for more than they needed before society. Even in ancient times, jealousy and thievery were abundant. There is a human nature, and it was not created by society. It created society. Greed and treachery have run rampant throughout mankind's history, from ancient times to present day. Society amplifies this selfishness, but it has always been there. Always.

The perfect society is not capitalism. The perfect society is not communism. It is not democracy. It is not socialism. It is not feudalism. There is no perfect society. There is no perfect system of government. There never was and there never will be. There will be near misses, but no society can be perfect. Even if a man is brought up in a socialist society, taught to live with only his necessities, get along with other people all the time, and work to make the world a better place; he will always be mistrustful of others. He will always covet what others have and he doesn't. Always. There's no stopping it. Ever. Society is not the cause of human nature. It is not the solution. It is the product. A way to express and control one's greed. Man will always be corrupted by wealth, power, and greed. Whether you stick him in a communist or capitalist society, he will question authority. He will think about how he can be great. How he can make his mark. He will be human.

I realised something a long, long time ago. Human beings, for the most part, are ignorant, self-centered, greedy... things that are a plague on this Earth. I am sorry to say it, but I have lost faith in my fellow man. There are the few who are the minority on this world. But that is all they are. The few. The few selfless humans who give up their lives for the good of others. Others who couldn't care less. They're thankful one miniute, and whining the next.

I'll stop my rambling at that.

You're either an ultra-realist or a complete pessimist. Have some faith

[Ash]

In Capitalism, you have obligations to the state, too. You act as if it's the perfect difference, but the only difference between Capitalism and True Communism is that Communism cuts out the middleman of the banker, and removes the class divide.

Why Hostile can't see that, I don't understand.

[Comrade Kal]

You CAN be a bum if you want, and you'll still get food. You just won't HAVE to be a bum. You think most tramps are there because they want to be? One thing I did notice while I was in America (and scared me quite a bit actually) was that people didn't really think homeless people were human. I heard them referred to on several occasions as "it".

[Ash]

Why would you want to be a bum? That's just stupid?

[xjjohnno]

Nothing wrong with Communism as a political philosophy.It's the malpractice there of that's been the problem.Ruling elites pervert the philosophy,latest example being modern day China with the party elite playing capitalists while penalising those who dare to complain for being non communists.
And why is communism such a dirty wod in todays Western World,well the like of Senator Joe McCarthy and others did a lovely job of distorting what it's rally about,being the little bloke in control of his world and collective ownership of the tools and means of production.Scare mongering assisted by the capitalist press works wonders at propagandising the masses.
It would appear that workers in a lot of countries lost sight of who their real enemy is,those who would steal their labour,kill them in the workplace with unsafe practices and conditions,and manipulate the labour market by creating unemployment while having folk working stupidly excessive hours or sending their production facilities offshore,all in the interests of increasing the company bottom line.

[Comrade Kal]

There is a percentage of homeless people that are homeless simply because they can't cope with the demands of the society in which we live... it's really quite a hassle to be paying bills and insurance and whatnot. Granted there will be less of that after the revolution, but I think there will probably be someone, somewhere, who wants to remain on the street. Nobody's forcing you to live in a house, Hostile.

Also, you say you can't be a capitalist like the current system allows you to be a communist. I cna't really live a life according to my principles because of the society.

I think a concept which ties fundamentally with communism is that you can't extend people's freedom to allow it to prevent other people's freedom. Likewise, it would be hypocritical to be tolerant of intolerance. So no, you can't be a capitalist and steal money from people.

[Hostile]

In your system, what if I CHOOSE to trade the fruit that I grew for something someone else wanted that was not provided by communism, (oh I dunno like sex?) Will I get arrested? Can I trade my "banana" for her "peach?"

it's really quite a hassle to be paying bills and insurance and what not

Life does have a way of getting in the way of itself.

[Comrade Kal]

Trading wouldn't be illegal, there'd just be no point to it, since if you needed something you could just get it rather than having to trade something for it.

Prostitution would have ot be a job like everyone elses. They provide a service to the community.

[Tom]

Except for things you cannot grow in certain countries kal like Bananas or Oranges etc in colder countries.

[Comrade Kal]

They'd be 'traded' on a mass scale throughout the country, or from other communist countries. It would be hard to exist entirelyt self-sufficiently, but trading like that would take place between countries.

[Ash]

I wouldn't even see it as trading. More giving away of the surplus. If someone says they need something, it's given. If the other nation needs something, that is given. It's not 'in return for'. It just is.

Otherwise, nations would be giving themselves too much power over their neighbours.

Chances are no society such as this would be allowed to exist, purely because of the presence of the USA. They'd just come marching in and conquer.

[Hostile]

I wouldn't even see it as trading. More giving away of the surplus. If someone says they need something, it's given. If the other nation needs something, that is given. It's not 'in return for'. It just is.

Otherwise, nations would be giving themselves too much power over their neighbours.

Now this is the first time nation-states/countries have been brought up. If my communist country needs to trade with yours, than that brings up issues. If I have a huge pile of bananas and you have a small pile of rice, logic dictates, trade in proportion to what you have and trade for more rice from another country.

So all needs are met and there is not people starving. But seeing not all nations are created equal based on climate and demographics, than a system would have to be devised on how to fairly distribute this stuff.

Brings me back to my original point, who would decide and run this machine. It wouldn't work unless the whole world was one large country, and we all know what that smells like. "New World Order"

It appears there is more than one path to the "New World Order" It may not be exclusive "right-wing" but also "left-wing"

I say vote for none of the above, as we all get that sick feeling when we picture what living in "The New World Order" would be like, no matter the idealogy. I vote "in the middlle/slighty right of center"

[xjjohnno]

Kal you're description of Coomunism is really more along the line of the old anarchist/syndicalist line of political thought,as espoused by one Bakunin.
With communism thing community and collective effort.There obligations to contribute be it by labour or materials to the common good.
Marx and Engels effectively devised what was more an economic rather then political theory.Where it's been screwed up in the past has been where the Vanguards of the proletariat aka the "Party"has decided it should be above the collective,both in what materials it should receive as well as the powers it would wield.
And communist societies have exisited in the past in the way of hunter/collector and nomadic tribes where collective efforts ensure survival.

[MSpencer]

One thing about trading between countries. If your communist country has very little in the way of resources, but mine has lots of food and lots of oil, and you have nothing in return, it's unlikely I'm going to give you oil and food and deprive my own citizens of those resources so you guys can live better. The government is in place to serve the people, not undercut them by giving away their stuff for nothing in return.

[Comrade Kal]

If your communist country has very little in the way of resources, but mine has lots of food and lots of oil, and you have nothing in return, it's unlikely I'm going to give you oil and food and deprive my own citizens of those resources so you guys can live better. The government is in place to serve the people, not undercut them by giving away their stuff for nothing in return.

No, because communism isn't about nations, it's about an ideology which unites humanity. As there were more communist countries, they are run basically as one big country (but collectivism is largely decentralised.) Say Britain and Australia were communist, they're miles apart, but Australians are people as much as Britons are, so the Britons have a duty to the australian people as much as they do their own people, and visa-versa.