385 replies to this topic

[MSpencer]

But that ignores the fact that people have brains and nationalist tendencies. Either way, someone will want to see their country succeed.
Also, you have to deal with the logistics of transporting food like that. It's just not possible.

[Comrade Kal]

It's the opposite. Those with 'brains' aren't the ones who are flag-waving morons. People only have nationalist tendencies because the government loads them with the idea that they're somehow part of a different species.

You look after them in their hour of need, they look after you in yours. The principles between nations are identical to those between individuals.

[MSpencer]

I mean there are nationalists, and then there are people who realize that socialism is that "Great idea that'll never work". It's like Star Trek transporters, I'd LOVE to be able to step on to a pad and end up in another country, will it happen? No.

[Comrade Kal]

The people that think socialism can't work will be disproved when they see it working. Although most people who use that argument tend to turn a blind eye to working socialist countries. Such as Scandinavia, if we go by your definition.

[xjjohnno]

Nationalism does not equate to having a brain,well more to the point being able to use one's brain in a responsible manner.One thing a capitalist society does very effectively do is marginalise a society,disproportionate distribution of wealth and the ensuing privileges being the obvious.Add the crime rate as a result of this and the rather pointless activity of comsumerism.
The Swedes with their welfare state have managed to balance to a degree this divicreate a balance between capitalism and communism/socialism and reap the benefits in stability and a guaranteed quality of life.
There's certain trends that have raised their ugly head here in Australia that have come from the other side of the Pacific being the degradation of freely accessible healthcare,something that should be a right and not a privilege for the wealthy and a fair and equitable wages system not based on what an employer can screw out of an employee but based on a needs scale for survival and quality of life in a society.
There's an annual event held here in this city,a horse race where the ugly wives of those who happily screw the workers in this country have their wives wearing hats costing more then some workers annual incomes,something I consider kind of obscene.

[MSpencer]

Nationalism does not equate to having a brain,well more to the point being able to use one's brain in a responsible manner.

I mean there are nationalists, and then there are people who realize that socialism is that "Great idea that'll never work".

Thought I'd point that out.

[C1E/\/\E/\/+]

There's certain trends that have raised their ugly head here in Australia that have come from the other side of the Pacific being the degradation of freely accessible healthcare,something that should be a right and not a privilege for the wealthy and a fair and equitable wages system not based on what an employer can screw out of an employee but based on a needs scale for survival and quality of life in a society.
There's an annual event held here in this city,a horse race where the ugly wives of those who happily screw the workers in this country have their wives wearing hats costing more then some workers annual incomes,something I consider kind of obscene.

Melbourne Cup Day, considered one of Australia's most important cultural events. A day revolving around gambling. A day in that is considered so important in Melbourne, they even decide to have a public holiday. One of he stupidest days on Earth, where rich women prance around in horrible hats.

John Howard is stupid for trying to take away worker's rights and our rights (Howard considers them to be privileges) to fre healthcare. But his better than that other guy.

[Comrade Kal]

I just explained why Socialism DOES work, and IS working. Also, nationalists are hardly going to agree with a system whereby all are equal, are they? But fortunately not everyone is a brainwashed nationalist.

[duke_Qa]

The people that think socialism can't work will be disproved when they see it working. Although most people who use that argument tend to turn a blind eye to working socialist countries. Such as Scandinavia, if we go by your definition.

This is stuff for another thread really but its relevant, as it proves my point in that socialistic countries does not support a individual who wants to live outside the box.

its called 'the Jante law', not directly a law but more a concept of how society works up here.

The "Jante law" has become a set phrase and a symbol of what many residents and also foreign visitors have seen as a permeating cultural code in the Nordic countries: that it is frowned upon to appear to elevate oneself or claim to be better or smarter than others. Those who assert to the influence of the Jante law often maintain that the values of the Danish and other Nordic welfare states are to blame for (the persistence of) the Jante law, in particular their stress on social equality and their emphasis on fairness for all.

There are 10 different rules in the law, but they are all variations on a single theme and are usually referred to as a homogeneous unit: Don't think you're anyone special or that you're better than us. The 10 rules are:

• You shall not think that you are special.
• You shall not think that you are of the same standing as us.
• You shall not think that you are smarter than us.
• Don't fancy yourself as being better than us.
• You shall not think that you know more than us.
• You shall not think that you are more important than us.
• You shall not think that you are good at anything.
• You shall not laugh at us.
• You shall not think that anyone cares about you.
• You shall not think that you can teach us anything.

so know this, in what you take as an example of the best socialistic countries to this day, there are signs of flaws. these rules are not openly talked about in politics, but its a common theme for artists and people who are trying to live different than "the rest". Norway has an incredible amount of talented people within many fields, but the amount of successful businesses related to those people are extremely small. basically, people who try something else than the rest gets frowned upon.

compare that to a true socialist system where it would practically be illegal to choose a different way of life, because it goes against the system where equality and fairness to all are the core laws...

[Comrade Kal]

IT'S ILLEGAL TO CHOOSE A DIFFERENT KIND OF LIFE IN ANY SOCIETY. How can I live as a communist in a capitalist society? I CAN'T! For fuck's sake, how many times do I have to say that?

Oh, and for those who claim it's against human nature: http://news.bbc.co.u...ech/4766490.stm

[Allied General]

IT'S ILLEGAL TO CHOOSE A DIFFERENT KIND OF LIFE IN ANY SOCIETY. How can I live as a communist in a capitalist society? I CAN'T! For fuck's sake, how many times do I have to say that?

Oh, and for those who claim it's against human nature: http://news.bbc.co.u...ech/4766490.stm

lol go to an uninhabited island wiv some followers like a big cult and set up your perfect society instead of bitching for several pages because no one cares about society as a whole.

Most people just care about getting the mortgage paid and getting rich quick.

Welcome to modern society.

[Ash]

Which puts you as the reason why an equal society couldn't work.


And even equal societists would oppose that Jante Law, purely because everyone should be equal under law, under income, and have no superiority inside of society...however this does NOT mean everyone is the same. It would not do for us all to be the same.

I think Duke has it into his head that all communism makes everyone identical. If Kal or I thought communism required everyone to be identical, we'd raise a nation of fucking clones. But no.

Each person is allowed to play to their own strengths. This is one of the basic fundamentals. How is this any different from Capitalism, except there is no charge for doing so, no restriction to doing so, and no necessity to spend the first eighteen years of your life learning useless shite, and instead spending it doing something worth doing, like learning you into your desired trade. Six or seven years of literacy, numeracy and other essentials with none of the assorted bollocks schools currently teach.

Through doing this, and then learning a tradecraft, the person becomes a MORE useful contributor to society by being skilled at the job (they've learned it for much longer under the influence of their mentor), but are actually more fulfilled because they're doing what they WANT to do.

And since everyone is different and wants to do different things, the society basically runs itself.

Indeed, no one person is perceived as superior, since the blacksmith is fucked without the ore miner, and the ore miner is fucked without the farmer, and the farmer is fucked without the builder, and so on... however, in their own chosen vocations, each person might hold a superiority to others in a specific area in which the others are ignorant (it isn't the blacksmith's job to know what the miner does and vice versa).


Really, is this concept so hard to grasp?

Edited by Comrade Jerkov, 04 March 2006 - 02:41 PM.

[Comrade Kal]

If you go and look at someone who earns the same as you, are they going to be exactly the same as you? No, of course they aren't. So why do you think that?

[duke_Qa]

Which puts you as the reason why an equal society couldn't work.

me? im just afraid that trying to revolutionize our rights might just get them more restricted than what they are today. liberalism and temperance is where my ideologi is... true neutrality in front of something with a major imbalance.

No, not you. I meant AG and his closed mind....~CJ

And even equal societists would oppose that Jante Law, purely because everyone should be equal under law, under income, and have no superiority inside of society...however this does NOT mean everyone is the same. It would not do for us all to be the same.

I think Duke has it into his head that all communism makes everyone identical. If Kal or I thought communism required everyone to be identical, we'd raise a nation of fucking clones. But no.

i don't believe that communism/anarchism makes everyone identical. but i heavily believe that its something that anyone with faith in a proper communistic/anarchistic society would try to keep, for the sake of status quo.

thats basically what the jante law is all about, the upheaval of the status quo. and communism/anarchism will not work unless the system is extremely rigid after what i have seen. or else people will just go back to their preferred ways of society.

Each person is allowed to play to their own strengths. This is one of the basic fundamentals.

Indeed, no one person is perceived as superior, since the blacksmith is fucked without the ore miner, and the ore miner is fucked without the farmer, and the farmer is fucked without the builder, and so on... however, in their own chosen vocations, each person might hold a superiority to others in a specific area in which the others are ignorant (it isn't the blacksmith's job to know what the miner does and vice versa).

but the thing is, if someone does something else than the others do, they will be looked upon as a threat. thats the basics of the jante law. once the basics of roles are fulfilled in a society, people quite often doesnt want people to create new roles because it changes the status quo.

If you go and look at someone who earns the same as you, are they going to be exactly the same as you? No, of course they aren't. So why do you think that?

it doesnt matter if they make the same as you, all that matters is that they are different and don't do the same that "they" do. know that the jante law is not a law, but a philosophy that can get so heavy that "outsiders" might feel that its a unwritten law.

Edited by Comrade Jerkov, 05 March 2006 - 10:23 AM.

[Comrade Kal]

Oh yeah, those revolutionaries really love to keep the status quo.

There is no worse society for that than the capitalist and consumerist society in which we live now. Got to have a BMW, the latest Nike trainers!! Otherwise you'll be a right old fool, won't you?

[duke_Qa]

and what did we have before the capitalist system? a feudalistic system of kings and queens... and they tried to keep the status quo just as much as everyone else.

as soon as the new system is in place, it will be the standard war of keeping the dam from breaching again.

im much more for trying to perfect/evolve the system that we have now than to scrap it and start over and again have to go through a ton of childhood trouble which we all have been through before. and as you have said, the scandinavian countries are some of the better social countries in the world. and i would probably agree on that, but i don't agree with your opinions on trying to get revolutionize things into a new system which works exactly as you imagine it would work.

[MSpencer]

I really only have one question for you Kal:
What makes your system better?
What I mean by that is why did Russia and Eastern Europe fail, and why will you succeed? What makes you so arrogant to think that your system would be able to unite human beings who kill each other over such trivial matters as religion into a single union without murdering people along the way? And when this comes about, what makes you think that the people in power will not keep power and tell everyone to go screw themselves and work in the gulags? I have found that the principal issue with communism is that in each instance of its unfortunate existence, the right and wrong people have been chosen, and even the right people have shown the dark side of human nature and have siezed ultimate power. This issue is the fundamental underlying cause of all issues with democracy and autocracy, and is the one thing which constantly finds a way to keep us from achieving world peace, a stable government, or an end to violent crime. When we are trying to perfect the world, our biggest opponent is our own nature as destructive beings.

[Tom]

Oh, and for those who claim it's against human nature: http://news.bbc.co.u...ech/4766490.stm

I've noticed that working at sainsburies. The amount of times i've dropped something and had a toddler pick it up for me was quite an amazing insight. It also proved to me how some adults are helpful and some are not, thus showing its a conditioning from upbringing and human society influences. Thats why i say its bullshit when people go: "ITS HUMAN NATURE TO BE "EVIL"!!!!!"

[MSpencer]

Altruism is a behavioral trait that increases the ability of an organism to pass on its genes to the next generation. It involves related members of the same species doing risky things to save a life, and can be represented by Hamilton's rule regarding altruistic behavior. The reason why it carried on from animals so long ago is simply because it likely made a species much more reproductively successful and stuck around for the ride up until today. So yes, altruism of course is ingrained in humans. Altruism does not disregard human behavior though.

[i z 3 r]

Communism will never work becuase idealy it has a bad economic system.