49 replies to this topic

[MSpencer]

The only true historical fact about Jesus of Nazareth are that he preached, and then he died. His death unified sects of pre-Christian beliefs that eventually became Christianity. I do not entertain such ideas as rising from the dead or speaking to some higher power, as those tend to be the delusions of a psychopath. The most important thing Jesus did was be crucified.

[Andre27]

He was crucified and rose again on the 3rd day. You may not believe this, but it is still true. Several eye witnesses are mentioned in the Bible.

Just take your pick...

1Cor.15

[3] For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
[4] And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
[5] And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
[6] After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
[7] After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
[8] And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.
[9] For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.
[10] But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.

[duke_Qa]

He was crucified and rose again on the 3rd day. You may not believe this, but it is still true. Several eye witnesses are mentioned in the Bible.

most likely the catholics re-wrote that part around year 400-700 to make a bigger lie for people to believe in. "the bigger the lie, the more people will believe it". making a guy ressurect after his death and do miracles is much more fancy than some prophet speaking about peace and unity and then getting executed and buried.

besides, the ressurection doesnt really have anything with the nihilistic philosophy that christianity is supporting. its the fact that once you die, you are supposed to go to heaven and live ETERNALLY with god. thats like saying "it doesnt really matter what you do in life, you can be a slave for us and die out of exhaustion, you will still live on forever in heaven once you die. But be careful, because if you do bad things and don't follow us, you will go to HELL AND SUFFER FOR ETERNITY*insert lightning and thunder in the background as a storm approaches, naturally just a huge metal plate being hit behind the temple*, so get that shovel up and make a gold coin for the pope today!"'


my opinion on jesus? he might have existed, and preached the things he said, but i prefer to think of him as a man who spoke mostly, and not the water-walking, wine-making, ressurecting, whatnot guy that a book written and re-written by people who had nothing to lose to add some "minor" details to the story. the words are more important than the events around him.

[Allied General]

He was crucified and rose again on the 3rd day. You may not believe this, but it is still true. Several eye witnesses are mentioned in the Bible.

most likely the catholics re-wrote that part around year 400-700 to make a bigger lie for people to believe in. "the bigger the lie, the more people will believe it". making a guy ressurect after his death and do miracles is much more fancy than some prophet speaking about peace and unity and then getting executed and buried.

besides, the ressurection doesnt really have anything with the nihilistic philosophy that christianity is supporting. its the fact that once you die, you are supposed to go to heaven and live ETERNALLY with god. thats like saying "it doesnt really matter what you do in life, you can be a slave for us and die out of exhaustion, you will still live on forever in heaven once you die. But be careful, because if you do bad things and don't follow us, you will go to HELL AND SUFFER FOR ETERNITY*insert lightning and thunder in the background as a storm approaches, naturally just a huge metal plate being hit behind the temple*, so get that shovel up and make a gold coin for the pope today!"'



my opinion on jesus? he might have existed, and preached the things he said, but i prefer to think of him as a man who spoke mostly, and not the water-walking, wine-making, ressurecting, whatnot guy that a book written and re-written by people who had nothing to lose to add some "minor" details to the story. the words are more important than the events around him.

thats your perception taken from an non believer, anti-catholic point of view, your argument is as credible as Marxism which says the rich are simply around to exploit the working class and obtain extra value but employee sharing schemes would negate this effect.

Christianity is nothing about nihilistic prophecy, its about how we have the decision to have faith in one saviour who has redeemed the original sin and with his blood the ultimate redemption.

If you actually read the bible, without thinking catholic propoganda, you realise its an extremely personal relationship God and his followers which has resulted from Christs death, the descending holy spirit and the knowledge that he overcame death. (thus pope is unessecary)

Its an central belief that Christ is not dead, you can choose to believe it or not because you have the free will to do so.

Also Da Vinci Code and how media demonises all religion its no surprise the world is so spiteful towards Christanity, even Christ knew this was going to happen.

The word of God is not wrong but its interpretation and manipulation by others leads to mistakes.

Its the same with all ideas.

The idea is pure but the people are inpure hence you never get the right result.

Christ tried to correct that and those who willingly choose to believe him have found him to the way to be an pure person for a pure idea.

The only true historical fact about Jesus of Nazareth are that he preached, and then he died. His death unified sects of pre-Christian beliefs that eventually became Christianity. I do not entertain such ideas as rising from the dead or speaking to some higher power, as those tend to be the delusions of a psychopath. The most important thing Jesus did was be crucified.

The world is not an hard cold game of logic, otherwise bravery, emotions and caring for the weak would have no purpose on this planet. An person sacrificing himself on an greande or taking a bullet for a comrade in my opinion is just as absurd as it goes beyond all your science talk about self-perservation and logic.

Finally to Andre27 don't quote from the bible, it is as foreign to an non-believer as an Satan is to God, the bible talks about peoples attitudes to the scriptures remember.

Edited by Allied General, 21 February 2006 - 02:13 AM.

[MSpencer]

Human personality and emotion, unfortunately, are just synapses firing at the right times. I wish it were more than that, but unfortunately, it really isn't.
There is absolutely no proof whatsoever that Jesus of Nazareth rose from the dead. There is absolutely no scientific precedence (And everything, that is everything, is governed by the laws of science) that such a resurrection could occur. If it could, it's likely we'd see a couple people reaching out of the ground in cemetaries each year.

[Andre27]

@ AG: Those quotes were a concious decission. I'm not usually one to quote the bible, but in a discussion like this personal opinions/statements can blurr the picture greatly.
Since this is a discussion about the core of the Bible and Christian faith it is a good thing to see what the Bible says about this.

To those who seem to have an opinion about religion and faith but on the other hand show very little factual knowledge of either one i'd like to challenge you to read the Bible. If it is pure nonsense like you claim what's the harm in reading it. However consider the fact that it's not, wouldn't it be a shame if you never took the time to read?

[Allied General]

@ AG: Those quotes were a concious decission. I'm not usually one to quote the bible, but in a discussion like this personal opinions/statements can blurr the picture greatly.
Since this is a discussion about the core of the Bible and Christian faith it is a good thing to see what the Bible says about this.

To those who seem to have an opinion about religion and faith but on the other hand show very little factual knowledge of either one i'd like to challenge you to read the Bible. If it is pure nonsense like you claim what's the harm in reading it. However consider the fact that it's not, wouldn't it be a shame if you never took the time to read?

I know but all I am saying is non believers can never interpret the true meaning of the bible, Christ said this.

Even when he was performing miracles in blatant view of people, people choose to not believe or would ask cynical questions like why r u healing the crippled on a Sabbath etc.

As for MSpencer, if emotions, personality, thought, wondering why we exist are simply byproducts of chemicals then then it we must live in a sad world today and it goes beyond all logic.

In many ways it even justifies Hitlers cause as his "reasoning" was based on darwins evolution theory survival of the fittest and lets face it without the ability to care, the weak would have long have perished, the ill would be left to die, the old would be abandoned.

Maybe that is the ultimate path of human destinty according to the science view in fact is an overriding ideology present in society, the egotistical approach to living.

Look at animals, they feel pain, they have natural reflexes to situations but I don't worry about the future or ancenstors, they are just concerned with food and reproduction.

If anything the human race has pervesely gone against its natural course.

Edited by Allied General, 21 February 2006 - 12:07 PM.

[duke_Qa]

thats your perception taken from an non believer, anti-catholic point of view, your argument is as credible as Marxism which says the rich are simply around to exploit the working class and obtain extra value but employee sharing schemes would negate this effect.

Christianity is nothing about nihilistic prophecy, its about how we have the decision to have faith in one saviour who has redeemed the original sin and with his blood the ultimate redemption.

If you actually read the bible, without thinking catholic propoganda, you realise its an extremely personal relationship God and his followers which has resulted from Christs death, the descending holy spirit and the knowledge that he overcame death. (thus pope is unessecary)

Its an central belief that Christ is not dead, you can choose to believe it or not because you have the free will to do so.

Also Da Vinci Code and how media demonises all religion its no surprise the world is so spiteful towards Christanity, even Christ knew this was going to happen.

any religion which claims that there is an afterlife not on this planet is basically nihilistic. belief in reincarnation is better because it means you have to worry more about what you do in your life. Catolics just have to get their sins forgiven and Kazaam! theyre in heaven, that was easy now wasnt it? there are a few rules like the ten commandments, but they lose their punch as you know on the next page they say "oh it doesnt matter too much, you'll go to heaven if you get your sins forgiven anyway".

its like if you murdered some guy and the court says "oh, well we can put you in prison for a day or a lifetime, you'll get out again someday anyway, so who cares"

if anything, i would have read the bible as with the same point of view as when i read lord of the rings, wheel of time or any other science-fiction/fantasy book. there might be some very good points in there, but who in their right mind goes around and believes such things word for word? how long would it take you to get sent to a asylum if you walked around demanding that people who talk bad about Aragorn, Gandalf or Frodo is sent to court for blasphemy(or in the worst cases, start attacking embassies and threatening to kill people)?

read the bible and use the parts which are wise, but don't go around preaching about it as if they actually happened. for me its just as likely that gandalf fought the balrog and became gandalf the white compared to jesus crucification and resurrection. use the parts of it that works in today society and live with the fact that others have found other ways to live their lives.

hehe, i just shake my head when you say that the world demonizes christianity through the Da Vinci Code. its a fiction book. why go so defensive when people write fiction? its not real anyway, just entertainment. through attacking it you only increase its popularity because people think "oh the church doesnt like it, but its not that big a deal, unless theres something more to it...hmm"

If anything the human race has pervesely gone against its natural course.

natural course? so christianity has the right answer to the 'natural course' i presume then. "we are right and you are wrong". kinda like the Roman Catholics held Protestantism as a heresy then.


i don't really know anything else to say at the moment but a small quote.


"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use."
-- Galileo Galilei "

[MSpencer]

Hitler was Social Darwinism to the extreme, which has nothing to do with Charles Darwin. Survival of the fittest does not mean an organism, it means a population or species. The strongest are not always the one who survive, its the ones who are best adapted. Social Darwinism is a bit different. That's the idea that natural selection can be applied to people, and that the weak will die off and the strong will survive.

[Allied General]

the natural course of any creature is to survive and reproduce and maintain its balance within nature, nature prevents over population by killing off the weak due to starvation, disease etc

human beings however have prevented this and thus are over exploiting leading to enviromental disasters.

the human race doesn't even take sex to reproduce but more as a recreational activity.

thus that is an perverse way to live in my opinion.

after achieving basic survival, the pinacle achievement of the human race has been explotation for self-greed in my opinion.

Science understands how but it doesn't answer why.

Also the Da Vinci was an example I personally find it hilarious because some people do percieve it to be truth, what offends me the though is how everyone blames religion for acts of extreme violence when in fact the core route is explotation and an governments foreign policy.

That is the main reason for violence, its frustation against the western attitude, and unfortunatly they have used religion as a excuse to do unreligious activities because they are probably misguided and manipulated by other people.

Peaceful protests in London about there Islamic religion however where fine (the ones in central london and not the one with the student dressed as a suicide bomber who in my opinion was retarded because he brought shame upon himself, his family and his believe)

Edited by Allied General, 21 February 2006 - 06:53 PM.