123 replies to this topic

[robnkarla]

I've been racking my brain on how to handle the nazgul. I wanted to have them mount horses & fellbeasts, but I wanted something different to be unique for this mod. The main principles that I wanted to follow were:
1) I wanted all nine nazguls to be playable for Mordor
2) If possible I did not want to keep the black rider horde
3) Wanted to keep Mordor balanced against the other factoins in the semi 1.06 environment
4) Make each nazgul unique

Well here is how the nazgul are working currently. I decided to use roleplaying Nazgul names instead of just numbers as EA started to name them (Witchking, Khamûl, Morgramir, Akhôrahil, Dwar, Hoarmûrath, Indûr, Ren, & Uvatha - I dropped the female Adûnaphel in favor of EA's Mogramir).

1) From the beginning of the battle all of the nazguls are available for purchase from the fortress. Once purchased all of the nazguls except the witchking can either go on foot or on horseback - they cannot ride a fellbeast.
2) Similar to the books and movies, if the nazgul were to die, they would forever lose their steed. When they respawn the mount option is replaced with a purchase fellbeast option.
3) A new upgrade is available from the fortress that allows the creation/training of the fellbeast. Once the technology is purchased, then each individual nazgul can purchase their fellbeast.
4) When the nazgul dies they respawn without a purchased fellbeast and must purchase it again.

The cost of each item I am still working through to maintain the balance, but I am thinking the original nazgul will be either 1100 or 1500. I'm planning on having the respawn be free with a long respawn time similar to BFME1 as you will still have to buy your fellbeast. The intial respawn when the horse is lost will be shorter depending on the level. If you die at level 1 it will be 2x longer than if you died at level 4. The cost of the fellbeast technology upgrade would be probably 2000 with no required upgrade or 1000-1500 with Morgul Sorcery as a required upgrade. The individual fellbeasts would be 250-500.

The witchking will be slightly different. Instead the witchking will be able to mount a horse and a fellbeast from the start and still be 5000. There will be common powers among the nine, but they will have an individual power. They are only castable on foot/horseback, and I am debating on whether they will only be available when the nazgul has a horse. As far as individual powers they will gain at level 7 or 10:

Witchking or Angmar - Hour of the Witchking is changed to a more offensive power
Khamûl the Easterling - Summon easterling wraiths
Uvatha the Horseman - Horse Master - Summons an evil "flood" Wave of Darkness with the morgul-horses crashing through
Morgramir - Ruin - strong against buildings
Akhôrahil - Dark Blast - Wizard Blast, but slightly different
Dwar of Waw - Summon dark hounds
Hoarmûrath of Dír - Chill Death - freezes a small radius of units, slowing them down
Jí Indûr Dawndeath -Summon's Haradrim wraiths
Ren the Unclean - Weaponsmaster - a boost in attack power

So that is my idea for the nazguls. The items listed above are currently working now in my test version of the mod. For now I'm placing it just in the hero maps until I finish all the heroes and units and rebalance the factions, and I have to say it is unique and pretty cool. Do you kill the nazguls to gain the fellbeasts, or do you try to level some of the up to reach the unique powers before they are killed? It adds a unique dimension to Mordor to make the faction a little more different than any of the others. I'm trying to add something unique each one.

[cahik_]

sounds quite cool and unique

[JEV3]

A female ringwraith??? I don't blame you for replacing her with Morgamir, that is ridiculous... Elven women could get pretty powerful, but from what I know human women don't usually get power or such and therefore wouldn't get a ring...

However I like the ideas... However I think that WK and Khamul should have more than one unique powers seeing as they are the most powerful of the Nazgul...

[Allathar]

Flaming Sword for WK could be power - in extended version of RotK he uses it against Gandalf, and Gandalf nearly dies...

[robnkarla]

Flaming Sword for WK could be power - in extended version of RotK he uses it against Gandalf, and Gandalf nearly dies...

Yeah I might do the flaming sword, but I have to say that is one of the very few parts of the movies that I absolutely dislike. There is no way that the Witch-King would have broken Gandalf's staff so quickly and easily if at all. As Gandalf the Grey he was able to hold off a number of nazgul on Weathertop not to mention a Balrog. I've been hesitant to add this power just because I cannot stand that scene. (The only other scene that I feel as strongly about is Frodo should have crossed the river alone and challenged the Nazgul. I don't mind as much that it was Arwen instead of Glorfindel, but let the hobbit stand up to the nazguls. Doing that would have taken his "wimp" factor out of the picture and made his character more of the hero that he was.)

[Devon]

makes someone facing mordor hesitate to kill them, cause when they come back they'll have fellbeasts. How is this gonna work in wotr?


Speaking of Dispising the movie, the thing I dislike most is that Faramir seems like a villain at first and takes them to osgiliath and you think hes gonna take the ring. Faramirs my fav character pretty much, so that made me mad

[robnkarla]

makes someone facing mordor hesitate to kill them, cause when they come back they'll have fellbeasts. How is this gonna work in wotr?


Speaking of Dispising the movie, the thing I dislike most is that Faramir seems like a villain at first and takes them to osgiliath and you think hes gonna take the ring. Faramirs my fav character pretty much, so that made me mad

WotR is what I am worried about the most as Mordor would be totally unbalanced here. I'm thinking that I will probably leave WotR alone for now and when I redo the factions I might give them 2-3 more Nazgul for WotR. It all depends on how the other factions end up.

The gameplay for the mod will be as follows:

1) I will leave the RotWK maps/gameplay as is, except for reorginizing the factions at some future date. WotR will be based on this. The biggest difference will be new units/heroes and the balance will follow 1.06 of BFMEII

2) I will have what I call hero maps. Some will just be copies of the existing maps with a map.ini. This is how the Minas Tirith map is currently. This will allow the players a large number of heroes at their command, and a number of other things. Basically, bring the campaign to a single map.

3) I will have the BFME1 Revisted maps. These will be the Castle/walls based maps mentioned in the other topics with a completely redone gameplay. I am debating whether to use the default items as in #1 or use the map.ini from #2. I might have a combination of both.

4) The campaigns. These will be the good and evil campaigns from BFME1/BFME2 combined in a WotR scenario. Though started long ago these will probably be the final things done as each map takes so long. Once I get all of the heroes/factions done it should go smoothly. Most of what has been done to the mod is a set up for the campaigns which will include many of the features of each gameplay style.

So basically I have 4 different single player options to choose from and 3 multiplayer options giving the gamer a HUUGE amount of flexibility on how they want to play and the amount of content (all free if you have RotWK). The new Nazguls will fall in the 2-4 category so WotR will not be unbalanced.

As far as Faramir - I just don't like to think about what they did. I understand and agree with why they did it, but it still is a huge injustice to one of the noblest characters ever. While they did sacrifice so much with Frodo, Sam, and Faramir's characters to keep the wieght/power of the ring so strong, the films still are my three favorite movies of all time. Of course, along with the Princess Bride as the best comedy.

[Sûlherokhh]

Very sweet for a Mordor-Fan like me! I had a similiar system implemented for BfME1 when i first started modding on Elvenstar. But i stopped with the second unique Nazgûl. I had them have different leadership bonuses, depending on the Nazgûl's heritage. Bonusspeed for Easterlings around Khamul foe example. One of my unrealized dreams was a BeastPit where the third Rank makes Fellbeast crawl around it's outsides (from then on Nazgûl would be able to mount them.) Please don't think that i would copy any of your ideas, but what you are considering comes really close to the S.E.E.-library system to come.

Btw, you got the names of the Nazgûl from I.C.E. - supplements, right?

I love it! I'm looking forward seeing how you make this great idea turn out! :D

[robnkarla]

Very sweet for a Mordor-Fan like me! I had a similiar system implemented for BfME1 when i first started modding on Elvenstar. But i stopped with the second unique Nazgûl. I had them have different leadership bonuses, depending on the Nazgûl's heritage. Bonusspeed for Easterlings around Khamul foe example. One of my unrealized dreams was a BeastPit where the third Rank makes Fellbeast crawl around it's outsides (from then on Nazgûl would be able to mount them.) Please don't think that i would copy any of your ideas, but what you are considering comes really close to the S.E.E.-library system to come.

Btw, you got the names of the Nazgûl from I.C.E. - supplements, right?

I love it! I'm looking forward seeing how you make this great idea turn out! :D

Thank you. I had not looked at all other mods for BFME1 and did not know this was similar to anything else. That beastpit would be very cool.

Yeah, I saw your library with very similar concepts to items implemented in the Arcade Edition if I remember correctly, but closer to Tolkien and and expanded gameplay. I've played around with some of those ideas in my mod, but the main thing that stopped me was the AI. As you could only give the AI a priority/guidelines on when to purchase each upgrade I felt like I did not have as much control as I would like.

I really like to try to keep my AI under tight control, and I'm still a little nervous with the Nazgul. But I figured by the time they got to the point to respawn the nazgul they should have already purchased the fortress upgrade and would quickly purchase the fellbeasts for the nazgul. One of the guiding points that I try to adhere to is only implementing things that I can tell the AI to use reliably, a big reason the BFME1 Revisted gameplay is the way it is. Although we all would love everyone to use them, the singleplayer game is what I believe sells the mod to used enough to be multiplayer online.

I might create a video trailer to show how it works. The only decision I have left is whether I want the individual nazgul's to purchase fellbeast as well as the technology, purchase one after each death, or just have the technology. Everything else is currently working in my current beta mod. As soon as I finish all of the other powers I'll probably get more screenshots/stats/powers up.

And yes, I got them from Iron Crown Enterprises Role-Playing materials. I'm probably one of the few who played/collected their LotR playing cards as well. The game was so-so, but I love the artwork for much of it.

Robert J.

Edited by robnkarla, 25 April 2007 - 09:52 PM.

[JEV3]

Of course, along with the Princess Bride as the best comedy.

Nope PotC > Princess Bride anytime, whether or not it is meant to be a comedy... it is still funnier....

but I still love the rhyme game on the boat:

"No more rhymes now I MEAN IT!"
"Does anyone want a PEANUT?"

Anywho back on topic, I still think that the more powerful Nazgul, WK and Khamul should have multiple unique powers...

[robnkarla]

Anywho back on topic, I still think that the more powerful Nazgul, WK and Khamul should have multiple unique powers...

Mawaige...Mawaige is whut bwings us togwefer todway....

They probably should have at least one more power as long as it is not too much. The only problem I am running into is slots...

Slot 1 - Stances
Slot 2 - Mounts
Slot 3 - BlackBreath (Dread Visage) / I still have not done the Shadow of the Beast but it would go here (lvl2)
Slot 4 - Morgul Blade (lvl4 or lvl5)
Slot 5 - Screech (lvl7)
Slot 6 - Unique Power (lvl10)

The only slot I might have open would be if I gave them an extra fellbeast power in slot 4 or made screeh a double power. I would have to check whether the sychronize timers need a commandbutton or if the specialability is enough. The specialability should be enough, but you never know.

So I might give them another power, but their biggest benifit will be the capability of casting their special power atop their fellbeasts. All of the other nazguls can only cast from the ground

[Sûlherokhh]

...
Thank you. I had not looked at all other mods for BFME1 and did not know this was similar to anything else. That beastpit would be very cool.

Yeah, I saw your library with very similar concepts to items implemented in the Arcade Edition if I remember correctly, but closer to Tolkien and and expanded gameplay. I've played around with some of those ideas in my mod, but the main thing that stopped me was the AI. As you could only give the AI a priority/guidelines on when to purchase each upgrade I felt like I did not have as much control as I would like.

I really like to try to keep my AI under tight control, and I'm still a little nervous with the Nazgul. But I figured by the time they got to the point to respawn the nazgul they should have already purchased the fortress upgrade and would quickly purchase the fellbeasts for the nazgul. One of the guiding points that I try to adhere to is only implementing things that I can tell the AI to use reliably, a big reason the BFME1 Revisted gameplay is the way it is. Although we all would love everyone to use them, the singleplayer game is what I believe sells the mod to used enough to be multiplayer online.

I might create a video trailer to show how it works. The only decision I have left is whether I want the individual nazgul's to purchase fellbeast as well as the technology, purchase one after each death, or just have the technology. Everything else is currently working in my current beta mod. As soon as I finish all of the other powers I'll probably get more screenshots/stats/powers up.

And yes, I got them from Iron Crown Enterprises Role-Playing materials. I'm probably one of the few who played/collected their LotR playing cards as well. The game was so-so, but I love the artwork for much of it.

Robert J.

How exactly do you mod the AI? For BfME right now i know there are about two inis where units are listed and defined as well as a set of priorities for the allocation of resources in the three different phases. In BfME1 all of that was governed by the AI scripts. But since BfME2, the only library references are to AIMotW and the musicscripts, plus of course the respective map scripts for the map being played. But checking the rest of the AI-scripts makes it clear that not only are very basic AI behaviours defined there (now hardcoded as i suspect) but also countless other fun stuff. I imagine the scripts could easily be expanded and incorporated to the current AI, though i have no idea if the hardcoded AI would have any conflicts with the scripts. My guess is that there probably are scripts being loaded automatically which we can't access except through the simplyfied means of the few ini-files. Have you tried giving the AI potentially conflicting scripted orders (maybe on one of your maps) ? I would be very interested to hear of those results, as they would have an impact on how far one can go implementing things like those you mentionen above, but also some of my own ideas. Sadly my comp has not enough memory for the WB. I start it once and have about 10min before it freezes on me!

But i have to say. I love the scripting system! As low and basic as i have to go to accomplish anything with it, it shows exactly how it is set up, from the roots to the leafs.

And yes i also believe that Singleplayer is what 'sells' the game, even though i have to admit MP is so much more fun. But a good AI is the backbone of a mod. Even a really boring modification (inherently being at least less boring than the standard game) is a hell of a lot better than a great mod, if the AI keeps you up and running! For that reason i still play WH40K:DoW from time to time. EA had better taken a close look at some of the AI's swirling around. Anyway, now it's our job, hehe.

I'm a fan of I.C.E. RPG stuff too (except for the rules). Great maps they produced. The cards artwork i also love, but not playing that (still stuck on V:TeS), i never bothered to buy them. They have them all on display on their homepage anyways.

A movie would be a nice touch, once you got the things right you want to show in that what. I also don't have RotWK, waiting on that one when i can buy the whole pack, since i had BfME1 only borrowed (for a few years lol).

So long, Sûl.

[robnkarla]

How exactly do you mod the AI? For BfME right now i know there are about two inis where units are listed and defined as well as a set of priorities for the allocation of resources in the three different phases. In BfME1 all of that was governed by the AI scripts. But since BfME2, the only library references are to AIMotW and the musicscripts, plus of course the respective map scripts for the map being played. But checking the rest of the AI-scripts makes it clear that not only are very basic AI behaviours defined there (now hardcoded as i suspect) but also countless other fun stuff. I imagine the scripts could easily be expanded and incorporated to the current AI, though i have no idea if the hardcoded AI would have any conflicts with the scripts. My guess is that there probably are scripts being loaded automatically which we can't access except through the simplyfied means of the few ini-files. Have you tried giving the AI potentially conflicting scripted orders (maybe on one of your maps) ? I would be very interested to hear of those results, as they would have an impact on how far one can go implementing things like those you mentionen above, but also some of my own ideas. Sadly my comp has not enough memory for the WB. I start it once and have about 10min before it freezes on me!

But i have to say. I love the scripting system! As low and basic as i have to go to accomplish anything with it, it shows exactly how it is set up, from the roots to the leafs.

And yes i also believe that Singleplayer is what 'sells' the game, even though i have to admit MP is so much more fun. But a good AI is the backbone of a mod. Even a really boring modification (inherently being at least less boring than the standard game) is a hell of a lot better than a great mod, if the AI keeps you up and running! For that reason i still play WH40K:DoW from time to time. EA had better taken a close look at some of the AI's swirling around. Anyway, now it's our job, hehe.

I'm a fan of I.C.E. RPG stuff too (except for the rules). Great maps they produced. The cards artwork i also love, but not playing that (still stuck on V:TeS), i never bothered to buy them. They have them all on display on their homepage anyways.

A movie would be a nice touch, once you got the things right you want to show in that what. I also don't have RotWK, waiting on that one when i can buy the whole pack, since i had BfME1 only borrowed (for a few years lol).

So long, Sûl.

I'm sure you can add scripts to the AI, if anything in the aispellexecution.map. That is the only scripting to the AI I've done. I've mostly worked within the confines of the AI_HEURISTIC entries, AI commands on units, Skirmishini, and these properties. I think the best entry for me was the brutal cheats. I really like them have a 0% buildtime bonus and a 50% cost reduction. It keeps the same pace as the Hard battles, but gives them a bonus so they don't come at you earlier than you can possibly be ready.

I've had some success. I recently played a quick 2 player vs. 2 comps match against men and they actually built 35! heroes in the match. It was probably the best match I've played in some time. Out of nowhere Farmir, 2 Eomers, & an Eowyn appeared and slaughtered a couple of our heroes and a battalion of cavalry stomped our infantry while siege weapons wreaked havoc on the archers. It was actually a very well contructed battle on the AI's part.

Anyway, yeah the new AI is hard-coded and not longer scripted. So all we can play with is generalities as far as I know. I know the issue your facing in the S.E.E. mod is based on the fact that you have two dozers and the AI doesn't quite know how to handle it. You might be able to change this to an upgraded switching commandset, or something like that.

When doing BFME1 Revisited I specifically choose build anywhere within the base model and capture flags just because I know the AI will handle this with .bse files and such. With the library system you are working out, you will just have to rely on the AI_HEURISTCS and priorities unless you actually script it. I'll try playing with the scripting soon and let you know.

Robert J.

[robnkarla]

Well, I've been doing all of the Nazgul powers. I just have some refinements on some of them.

For Dwar of Waw, here is the shot of one of the Dark Hounds that he will summon. He summons a pack of 6, and they are a good deal larger than the Wargs.

[robnkarla]

Well here is Khamul with a screenshot of the easterling wraiths. This is in testing where I summoned them 4 times, in production this will be only once.



I know they are not canonical, but neither is the army of the dead fighting anywhere other than Pelagir.

I've got all 8 nazgul's done. Once I finished the WK's powers I will do a video to show them all off.

[Sûlherokhh]

Well, I've been doing all of the Nazgul powers. I just have some refinements on some of them.

For Dwar of Waw, here is the shot of one of the Dark Hounds that he will summon. He summons a pack of 6, and they are a good deal larger than the Wargs.

Great! The Dog Lord. Read about him first in 'Teeth of Mordor' i think. Hehe. Good idea the summon. Also looks good!

[mumak_king]

well about the nazgul who has the freeze power i think it really weak if it only slows units i thought i could be cool if the power would freeze them permanently so they stay there never moving casualties it would be very cool i think you could do i so just the freeze animation and put it permanent





oh and if evil men could get some kind of cultist of the east they could cast a spell that would stone the enemie for ever that would be sooooooo coool of course it would be a super expensive power or maybe a power point power



and one more thing if you have cave trolls or any trolls if the enemy casts a sunlight spell it stones the trolls


lol one more(the last i swear)the evil men could they get a siege mumak with a catapult on its back or something and maybe a batteirng ram mumak two mumaks carrying a large tree trunk that the harad on the mumak control using ropes or something(i know this isnt very unicue)oh and plz make mumaks bigger because in movies a rider of rohan on a horse its the same size as about the mumaks foot smaller that its toe
and if you make them bigegr maybe even siege tower mumaks

and in the bfme 1 revisited map plz add siege towers and ladders for mordor and isengard because i was disapointed when playing fords of isen in 1.04 you couldnt make siege towers or ladders



this mod ruuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuulez

Edited by mumak_king, 07 May 2007 - 11:45 AM.

[robnkarla]

well about the nazgul who has the freeze power i think it really weak if it only slows units i thought i could be cool if the power would freeze them permanently so they stay there never moving casualties it would be very cool i think you could do i so just the freeze animation and put it permanent

I meant to change that. It does not slow them down, but it freezes them instead just like the necromacer power. The only difference is the radius is increased, the timer decreased, and there is no acolyte cost since it is a Nazgul. A permanent freeze might be a little too much, or it would have to be a smaller area and not affect heroes, but then I would have to worry about the commandpoint issue, or whether they could be attacked. It would be a huge exploit if you froze units that counted towards the commandpoint limit for the duration of the game. At this point, though, the power is one of the weakest by itself as it is more of a combination power to be used with other tactics to make it incredibly powerful.

oh and if evil men could get some kind of cultist of the east they could cast a spell that would stone the enemie for ever that would be sooooooo coool of course it would be a super expensive power or maybe a power point power

That may be possible...I already plan on having the Evil men have a sorcerer sytle unit with enslaved men instead of Acolytes and I'm playing with the powers they have. The only issue with doing the stoned is that is requires a huge amount of textures as each stoned unit has a stoned texture in order to make it look cool. I want them to have their own "evil men" style powers different than Angmar's powers.

I've thought about including Morinehtar and Romestamo as the cult leaders(alternate names for the Blue wizards. Pallando and Alatar have been used so extensively, and these were names used for the Blue Wizards later in Tolkien's life). I'm just still nervous about including the Istari on the evil side. If anything they would be in the skirmish, but not in the campaigns.

and one more thing if you have cave trolls or any trolls if the enemy casts a sunlight spell it stones the trolls

Does that not work with Sunflare for the elves? I know the code is in there to work. I'm also planning add it to cloudbreak to temporarily change the trolls that should be turned to stone.

lol one more(the last i swear)the evil men could they get a siege mumak with a catapult on its back or something and maybe a batteirng ram mumak two mumaks carrying a large tree trunk that the harad on the mumak control using ropes or something(i know this isnt very unicue)oh and plz make mumaks bigger because in movies a rider of rohan on a horse its the same size as about the mumaks foot smaller that its toe and if you make them bigegr maybe even siege tower mumaks

I'm not sure about the siege weapons with the mumakil, but I am in the process of adding a young mumakil horde for the evil men - 3 smaller mumakils without harness and carriers. I have not seen this yet, but I would not be surprised if someone already did this and I have not looked through the detail of every mod. Also for the size, I'm debating on whether to make the mumakils, giants, ents, etc. larger. I don't want anyone to think that I'm copying SEE (which is a very good but completely different mod.) When I saw that was one of the items included in theirs, I took the items out of my mod before I released that version.

The one thing that I did keep - for the Good Campaign Minas Tirith map the mumakil, drummer trolls, and units will be "movie-sized". I did a Minas Tirith map a very long time ago that I really enjoyed that I will be using as a guide and that was one of the items in that map.

and in the bfme 1 revisited map plz add siege towers and ladders for mordor and isengard because i was disapointed when playing fords of isen in 1.04 you couldnt make siege towers or ladders

Yes, I have added the castle siege weapons for Isengard and Mordor in the next release. That was of the benefits of the evil side since they did not have walls. The only thing I have not included of course is Grond. With the changes I've done to Mordor, Grond would be just one more item that could possibly make Mordor too powerful.

Thank you for the feedback,
Robert J.

[Ergopad]

First of, your mod is just great(!) and I like the new nazgul system. Here's a little suggestion about Khamul the Easterling.

"Khamul was one of the most powerful Nazgul, second only to the Lord of the Nazgul. He was readily able to sense the presence of the One Ring, although in daylight he became confused and his power was diminished." - Thain's Book (http://www.tuckborou...ngs.html#Khamul)

According to this, Khamul should be the strongets (after WK) and I would like see him having an ability to sense the ring and he should have a leadership bonus too.

*Morgul's Sense/Dark Sense/Sense the One Ring/Eyes of the Night:
Reveals invisible creatures from surrounding area (quite long distance) and Gollum's position for a short period of time.

*Liutenant of Dol Guldur:
Gives attack and movement speed boost to nazguls (?)

And about your problem with low number of slots: ONLY WK should have morgul-knife attack (like with Angmar's WK), since none of the other nazguls had it. And about The Hour of the WK; it should not only reset timers, but stun surrounding units in fear (not flee!).

Btw, some other ideas: Legolas should have monster slayer (instakill monster) ability, Boromir should have Last Stance ability and Gimli should have some kind of last level ability like Last Stance or Reincarnation (all lvl10 abilities). And summon crebain could fit perfectly to Brand (of dwarves).

AND most importantly, change the leadership bonuses. As +50% attack and +50% armor cannot be any more dull, rather only ONE of the following: +100% attack, +100% armor, +20% attack speed, +30% speed, +30 regen, fearless or something else. In this way the heroes' different leaderships would rock.

If possible, there could be two gandalfs, the white and the gray. Since gandalf could have abilities like great leadership (fearless/armor) and Mend the Wounds. Though radagast could have Mend the Wounds too. How does that sound like?

Thanks for reading my suggestions. I really look forward to see Rohan complete, as it is my favorite faction. Radagast fits perfectly in it!


Just some thoughts,...

Edited by Ergopad, 15 May 2007 - 03:34 PM.