127 replies to this topic

[IIS]

Hei guys, awesome work! Keep it up; however, here are few facts that probably all of you know, but not everyone apllies to his/her work. First, the power of Gondor is the strongest in the Middle Earth. They also have best technological equipment. I repeat again best, as even the dwarves can not be compared to the strenth of these men in the third age, not talking about uruk hi, who is made stronger in the second bfme - which made me totally ignore the entire game, towerguards are made there simple pikesmen too, moreover one of the weakest pikesmen - that just made me laugh and stick to the first version of the game. Anyways, back to the point...Gondorians are decendants of Numenorians, who managed to improve their crafts, although their nation is weak in the third age - this is only due to the small population, otherways they are really skillful and taugh, pretty much equal to an average dwarf, but here comes an advantage, unlike most of, actually all of dwarves nations Gondor has to fight 5 nations at once: Mordor, Harad, Rhun, Umbar and Wildmen of North. ANd as all of you know the best army is the most expirienced one, so here you go. Next point, their armor is actually better than dwarven one (everyone knows that dwarves make the best armor, well it actually second best) this is due to the loss of crafting skills from dwarven side and gain of them from Gondorian this is speaking third age (last part of it) in the beggining dwarves had better armor, Numenorians time - probably equal! Now their streanth is smaller, but agility and sense of intuition is definatelly higher: conclusion - basic Gondorian soldier - is strongest unit, yet in your mods it is not always the case, which is sad... I understand, many of you don't wanna do them strongest due to the balance issues, simply because Gondor has too many strongest or one of the strongest units, well solution to this is simple - put up the price for the Soldiers or introduce Gondorian Militia, who would be basic unit equal to Rohan peasants - good sollution? Same goes to the archers of Gondor - they are not always one of the best, when actually they are third (talking genral) after elves and rangers (they are better than men of dale due to their armor) - it is sad to see them second from the bottom or worst - unacceptable, it is also unacceptable making them equal to Rohan Yomen - their bows, training, equipment and armor were way behind archers of Gondor - same soluton here introduction of a higher price or of light Gondorian scouts (archers/throwers) - simple is that, otherways most of you made towerguards as elite units of the Empire which is good))) Don't really wanna see them as simple pikesemen. Thank you for your attention, waiting for your replies, will make second point after some of you will post something here)))

Edited by Námo, 17 April 2010 - 10:57 AM.
edited Topic Description

[Radspakr Wolfbane]

errr...was this directed at any one mod in particular.
Anyway, Dwarves are stronger then Gondorians.
By the third age the Numenoreans would have been a minority and most of their people would be closer to the people of Dale and Rohan.

[Nazgûl]

errr...was this directed at any one mod in particular.

Word!
That was rather funny... I guess this was some kind of multi purpose "lecturing"
My suggestion is that you search for a mod you like and then try to give your point to the mod in question. I doubt you'll reach ALL mods with this kind of multi directed suggestion/thought...

Just my 2 cents, as they say...

[halbarad]

if gondor was better at smithing than the dwarves why do they send for the dwarves to fix the gate of minith tirith after the battle?

gondor archers are the most armoured archers but are by no means one of the best in terms of range or damage.

the numenorian bloodline is pretty much extinct at the end of the 3rd age, being mixed with the men of middle earth as it was.

[Mathijs]

^^ What he said.

[IIS]

errr...was this directed at any one mod in particular.
Anyway, Dwarves are stronger then Gondorians.
By the third age the Numenoreans would have been a minority and most of their people would be closer to the people of Dale and Rohan.

Yes ther r stronger but as i said they have less agility and intuition experience in combat and worse equipment..so theyare weaker in combat

errr...was this directed at any one mod in particular.

Word!
That was rather funny... I guess this was some kind of multi purpose "lecturing"
My suggestion is that you search for a mod you like and then try to give your point to the mod in question. I doubt you'll reach ALL mods with this kind of multi directed suggestion/thought...

Just my 2 cents, as they say...

I just want the balance be based on the books and the Movies not on random ideas...yea u were rite i was rfering to all of the modes but particularly the kings of the West mode...Thanx for the attention

if gondor was better at smithing than the dwarves why do they send for the dwarves to fix the gate of minith tirith after the battle?

gondor archers are the most armoured archers but are by no means one of the best in terms of range or damage.

the numenorian bloodline is pretty much extinct at the end of the 3rd age, being mixed with the men of middle earth as it was.

1- Because they have no mithril resources and by that time dwarves regained control of Moria, second reason is to strengthen their relationship.

2-Yea ur right they also have the bow the size of their body therefore their damage is 1 of the best, i ddnt say the best , plus due to them been fully armed it is easy to make a general statement that they are probably third best archers after elves and rangers.

3-Numenorian blood is about one fifth of an average gondorian, there are also some full blooded numenorians like Aragon, with the loss of their blood..they gained alot of fighting experience and their craft and skills improved alot

[Nertea]

*resists urge to post a correction*

*fails*

1) What part of "and where now is the skill to rebuild it and set it up anew" is unclear? That's not material...

2) Bow damage is a misnomer. There is no such thing as "damage". There is penetration, there is range, there is accuracy.

3) Aragorn probably isn't full blooded. He didn't live as long as a Numenorian and I highly doubt that all 20 of his ancestors married full blooded Numenorians. If you do a bit of simple tree-drawing you'll also find that it would be rather unlikely for most men of Gondor to be 1/5th Numenorian, given a succession of at least 20 generations.

[Bart]

There is penetration, there is range, there is accuracy.

wrong. there is the strength of the bow, accuracy of the archer, and design and weight of the arrow

[pf7612]

There is penetration, there is range, there is accuracy.

wrong. there is the strength of the bow, accuracy of the archer, and design and weight of the arrow

Yeah, but all those fit into or contribute to accuracy, penetration, and range.

accuracy of the archer- accuracy
Strength of the bow- range and penetration
Design/weight of the arrow- range, penetration and accuracy

They all fit in to the categories of range, penetration, and accuracy, and contribute to them in some way .

[Radspakr Wolfbane]

A small note or 2 the Dwarves didn't gain control of Khazad Dum (I won't say Moria because Dwarves don't speak in Elvish) until well into the 4th age.
I think you mean Mod not Mode.
And to say that Gondorians are better armoured then Dwarves is laughable
considering the Dwarves are master craftsmen.

[Guess Who]

A small note or 2 the Dwarves didn't gain control of Khazad Dum (I won't say Moria because Dwarves don't speak in Elvish) until well into the 4th age.
I think you mean Mod not Mode.
And to say that Gondorians are better armoured then Dwarves is laughable
considering the Dwarves are master craftsmen.

true Radspakr dwarves have the skills of master craftsmen and men are just laughable at crafting compared to dwarves so IIS if u think the gondorians are best make a "gamedata mod" that edits stats, etc of the troops.

[Núkumnëhtar]

1. The Dwarves did not retake Moria by the time they fixed the gates, they had some raw mithril in Erebor that was brought out of Moria, and possibly was mined in the Ered Mithrin.

2.Aragorn lived the long life of the Numenorian, but like most was not full blooded, even he had straints of Northmen from Eldacar, and possibly even Haradrim from the time when Gondor had control over them and was at relative peace with them. Arvedui married Fíriel so both lines were merged when the Cheiftains came in.

3.Most Dunedain of the War of the Ring only lived 20-40 years longer in average than the average of the Line of Eorl, that is if their life didn't end short, which was most of the time. Afterwards they lived quite some time longer from the rule of Aragorn, but after him again quickly decreased to the same numbers or even with that of the other men.

4.Dwarves do have the stronger armour in this period of Erebor than Gondor, in the late third age much of the arts of Numenor was long forgotten and the smiths only remembered some of their craft.

[IIS]

Guys these goes to all of you:
First: dwarves (talking here on average, I'm not gonna say Iron Hills or Erebor had weaker armor than an average Gondorian soldier - fact look it up in the books! This is explained by the loss of Durin crafting skills by dwarves and gain of armor making skills by the men of Gondor - it is even easily spotted in the movies: Gondorians - full plate armor, dwarves - scale chainmail - now I can assure you that a knight wearing plate armor would win a single fight against a knight with a chainmail - historical fact! (even if the knight in chainmail is a bit stronger) Now why did not they rebiuld the gate - probably because dwarves would not let them work with their precious mithril and "destroy" the fine art they making (everyone knows about their stubborness) than they could probalby work mithril better (but we are talking here about steel and armor making not walls and gates) Moreover, yes Gondorians lost Numenorian skills of fine stone crafting and building, but not the armor development!!!! How come you guys don't know this? And no - most Dunedain lived twice the lives of men more than 150 years, unless they were killed...
Yes I admit Aragorn was of a mixed blood, yet that was not my point - and no average Gondorian had about 1|5 of their blood of a Numenorian kind - there is no genetic map to trace it, but knowing the rules of Demographics, Numenorians would have had to stop breading in order to make that stats worse...
Yeah, they lost a lot of their skills, like I said building, may stonecrafting, etc. definatelly not smithy skills - I already made my point they had to fight 5 nations - this means hge war experience, huge boost in armoring technology and fighting combat|strategy.
I always thought they did take control of Moria befoe fixing the gates- not sure here, I'm not going to make a statement if I'm not sure...

true Radspakr dwarves have the skills of master craftsmen and men are just laughable at crafting compared to dwarves so IIS if u think the gondorians are best make a "gamedata mod" that edits stats, etc of the troops.

Yes they are better craftsmen, but not better smithworkers - as I said they are the ones that lost their skills in this field not men, if don't believe me read it out loud to yourself in the books - what is the armour of Gondorian soldier made of and what is the armour of say a North misty mountains or white mountains soldier made of - you ll be surprised to find pouldrons in dwarven ammunition.

And to say that Gondorians are better armoured then Dwarves is laughable
considering the Dwarves are master craftsmen.

Really? how about you wear chainmail and I wear plate armor - both of us will have same weaponы and we will fight? You think you will stand a chance?
I did not say Gondorian archers are the best I said that they are third - hypothetically - they will loose to rangers of Gondor (who actually have same kind of bows) rangers of destroyed Arnor kindom (whose bow was a bit smaller) and definatelly elves (most of them whether they high elves or wood elves)

Hopefully it explains it all, if you guys have good arguements against this material - throw it out - I totally appreciate this kind of discussion.
PS I am actually a big fan of Rohan - just started with Gondor for some reason. Since they are the closest to my culture... ( I mean past(medieval times culture)


When I said they (talking about Moria - I ment dwarves not humas) And sorry for my ducked up language - was writing this at 4 am, after work...

[Mathijs]

Gondorians wore chainmail in the books... or are you changing from book to movie facts whenever you see it fit?

What's the POINT of this lecture?

[Nertea]

Where in the books does it say "Dwarves have weaker armour than Men"? From TTT: "There was no hauberk in the hoards of Edoras of better make than his short corselet forged beneath the Mountain in the North". That's pretty definitive, I think. This also isn't a mithril hauberk - consider Gimli's reaction upon seeing Frodo's coat.

The argument of plate against chain also isn't always valid - chain and plate have different uses. I can move significantly faster and with a better range of motion in chain than in plate, I could dodge more easily... sure, if there's an arrow headed for my chest plate will be better, but in terms of actual combat they depends on troop role.

It could also be construed that Gondor's smithing was in decline just by looking at the case of the Numenorian steel cored bow, which would require significant smithing skill to make, which no longer exists in Gondor. The general form of "war = technology" that is present in the modern world doesn't apply in LOTR - if so surely the Elves, having fought Morgoth for thousands of years, would have such awesome technology. You'd also have to consider that the men of Gondor have not been fighting wars for all of the Third Age - where the WoTR era the first major battles took place during the retaking of Osgiliath. Anything else was just skirmishing. The experience of any troops that fought in the Balchoth invasion for example does not count - those men are long dead. Dwarves have similar experiences - we know of War of Goblins and Dwarves, of Balin's attempt to retake Moria, of the Battle of Five Armies, of the generally large Orc population of the Grey Mountains... these actually apply, because some of the Dwarves that fought there are still alive.

Edited by Nertea, 04 August 2007 - 07:22 PM.

[Dain Ironfoot]

Who is this fellow who knows not of paragraphs and tries to tell us what to do?

[Eldarion25]

Chainmail gives more versitility and yes, this has been proven, chainmail holds just as well as plated armor when sliced by a sword, it's only weakness is something like an arrow, and in 1 on 1 combat, you aren't going to use an arrow to stab through the chainmail. Dwarves are master smithers and craftsmen, their armor has always been of greater quality, and they also are one of the only races that knows the secrets of smithing different materials. This time, actually read the book, not use the images of the movies as your basis. And yes, the bloodline of Numenor mingled a LITTLE more than 1/5... Try 1/500 at LEAST.

[Eonwe]

Actually, This might be getting off topic. Gondor did not by itself fight all 5 of those nations. Rohan, and other gondorians fom the southern fiefdoms came. So did some dunedain. I do not know if the Dunedain, and the SF made a difference, because both together had around 1,000 together counting how skilled they were loke the men of dol amroth were very skilled as were the dunedain. They only made 1,000.

On topic: the dwarves did repair the Minas Tirith gate. As did the elves of Mirkwood which made the city look greener. Also Ithilien. Did I mention the dwarves also fixed the walls of Minas Tirith. So I think basically they are the same.

[Bard]

I think whenever the topic creator states "going by/read the book" he actually means "going by/read the movie-based book titled 'Weapons and Warfare'" instead of any of the books written by the Professor or his son. He seems to be basing his claims off WETA Workshop's concepts, i.e. "Gondorians are the third/fourth best archers in Middle-earth behind the Ithilien Rangers, the Rangers of the North and the Elves."
Which can be observed in the arrow-range graph and certain passages detailing the Gondorian arsenal in the previously mentioned book.

As well as the claim about plate-armoured Gondorians in the books, which he will probably support by saying "Imrahil wore a vambrace in RotK."

what is the armour of say a North misty mountains or white mountains soldier made of

Are you suggesting an armour comparison between Dwarves and Gondorians? Because:

North Misty Mountains - Do you mean Orcs? Because all Dwarven holds in the entire Misty Mountain range (Gundabad and Moria being the main ones) were taken over by Orcs. Those Mountain Orcs probably wore very serviceable but ragged (and weak compared to the Dwarves) armour made from scavenged dwarven material or metals which they mined themselves.

White Mountains - Let's see, the Orcs there were wiped out in King Folca's time, and the Rohirrim, Gondorians, Dunlendings and Druedain lived in the dales and foothills, not in the Mountains themselves. There are the Dead Men of Dunharrow, but their armour is nowhere detailed in the canon books. Or do you mean the Dwarves of Aglarond who colonised the Glittering Caves only after the War? If so, most probably the same armour from Erebor.

Oh and slightly off-topic:
Wildmen of North? Who are those? Dunlendings? Balcoth/Wainrider remnants? Rogue Northmen? Those axe-wielding swarthy Dwarf-like men who people usually interpret as Variags?

Edited by Bard, 05 August 2007 - 04:09 AM.

[IIS]

Gondorians wore chainmail in the books... or are you changing from book to movie facts whenever you see it fit?

What's the POINT of this lecture?

yes they did, under their cuirass and pouldrons... No I'm trying to stick to both at the same time - movie avoids some of the facts that are written in the books, yet it has a lot of good points and visual representation.
My point is not to stick to the old stereotypes of all men been weak and corrupted and all dwarves strong and taugh. I'm not going against anyone, but the perl of the best nation of men, which Gondor was, even when it was weak, in the third age and probably fouth had dominant ammunition for its professional regular army, which soldiers of Gondor were - I also want to remind ou guys that in the countryside places like villages and small towns - Gondor had militia, which were still pretty good soldiers - something like equipted peasants - in the first BFME.

Chainmail gives more versitility and yes, this has been proven, chainmail holds just as well as plated armor when sliced by a sword, it's only weakness is something like an arrow, and in 1 on 1 combat, you aren't going to use an arrow to stab through the chainmail. Dwarves are master smithers and craftsmen, their armor has always been of greater quality, and they also are one of the only races that knows the secrets of smithing different materials. This time, actually read the book, not use the images of the movies as your basis. And yes, the bloodline of Numenor mingled a LITTLE more than 1/5... Try 1/500 at LEAST.

Really? It has... Sorry but this sounds really funny - how come none of the knights wnated to wear it after they could have plate armor made, how come arabs lost so many of their people against crusaders who were better equipted most of the time - the only times they achieved victories - was when the crusaders were outnumbered. Yeah, it gives more versitility - by a bit - you also feel every blow that hits you - in plate armor you don't! And again with all the respect - there is no way chainmail holds sword slashes as well as armor does: weak, average blows it will hold - strong sword slash - will wound or kill you - in plated armor it will bouns of you - unless its megapowerful - which still could happen and could wound you. Moreover, any kind of stab even if its not strong, - has a huge potential of wounding you - when in chainmail, not in plate armor. ANd as you said yourself - it has not protection against long distance weapons such as bows, crossbows etc. Moreover, even a weak blow with a mace into the chainmail soldier will break all of his blows, for plate armor you will need a strong blow! 1 on 1 combat - definatelly yes, 100 on 100 combat - same effect - examples? Look up crusades... Furthermore, how about Tatar invasion into Russia - their army was like 10 times bigger after they concured all of Kiev Rus it became three times smaller - and only few of the Russians had plated scale - which still was not plate armor - but already played a significant advantage, than after a while, Golden Hord gathered more forces and invaded Poland - where it was stopped due to 2 main reasons: Polish armor and significant losses in Russia. French knights beat English in the beggining of the century war due to better armor they had, that did not last long as they got wasted by English Long Bowers - which brings back my topic of Archers of Gondor. Finally, in the Baltican or 10th crusade Russians only overcame German Teutonic knights due to good strategy and cunning tactics. They still had to loose few cities including Pskov, which proved superiority of German forces, who had few better equiped soldiers and by better equiped I mean - some kind of plate armor.
Yeah, no doubt dwarven armor was greater than armor of poeple of Rohan or men of Dale or even old Arnorian kindom and many other men kindoms, yet there are many facts that would probably show the superiority of Gondorian armor - the dwarven nation were split by the end of the Third age, Gondorian kindom - weak but united due to the Eastern threat growth. Dwarves are and were the best craftsmen - this includes stoneworks, jewellery, as you mention metal works, development and building of wonderful caves and underground cities and of cause smithy skills - yet, even though they could work with the biggest amount of metals in middle earth - a lot of their skills were lost by the end of third age, 7 of their houses were split, one killed entirely, when last Numenorian decendant house was united and still holding. Although Gondorians lost many skills of their anscestors and became shorter - their smithy skills were improved a lot! Hopefully this explains it all.
Ah yes, finally - to say that an average Gondorian had about 1|500 of their Numenorian blood would be a really pesimistic statement - this could occur if the development of their bloodline would follow the steps of pure men mixture - without Numenorian involvement, let me explain: Numenorian + human = halfnumenorian - halfnumenorian + human = quarternumenorian and so on, yet being realist I doubt this was the case. I'm pretty sure it was more like Numenorian + human = halfnumenoria, than it is likely that halfnumenorian would meet another halfnumenorian or even Numenorian - therefore the results would be different: halfnumenorian + halfnumenorian = halfnumenorian. halfnumenorian + Numenorian = 3|4 Numenorian, than this 3\4 Numenorian could meet a human again and so on - so it was not pure extinction of the Numenor race, although I admit by saying 1\5 - I was pretty positiv :-) It was probably worse than that, still not 1\500 or even 1\100 - that is sure. Demographics is one of my majors ;-)