33 replies to this topic

[The Mr Z]

hmmmm.....potential candidate....though usually guardsmen are the opposite of hard...even their best units.

i suppose, it would be good to the get the hard-ass bit across. would make for an amusing unit.

[Dynamic Echo]

I think for space marines the best way would be to have a hard-as-nails captain, with charismatic phrases, armed with a bolter-combo of some kind and special equipment fo some kind. That way you avoid the dawn of war style space marine commander who just rushes in with an unrealisticly large close combat weapon. Space marines are supposed to be professional soldiers, not nutters with hammers. (though they can be in some cases)

[essi2]

Space Marines are absolutely nutters with power hammers (some of them atleast). but a Space marine commander in termie armour with either a stormbolter (or a combi weapon like Dynamic Echo suggested), would be awesome

[Dynamic Echo]

Ok yes, many are nutters, we can agree that. But perhaps have three option for the commander. It would appear as a single entry who is a captain equipped with a combi-bolter of some kind. Then you can choose either to give him artificer armour (improves armour a little and gives him a power sword), a jump pack (gives him a jump pack rather oviously), or terminator armour (cost the most, increases armour significantly and reduces speed). All of the upgrades would have an associated cost.
This could be applied to all races, for example: A necron lord, you can choose to give him one of the following at appropriate cost: resurrection orb, destroyer body or teleportation. Of course, those upgrades are only examples but this would allow a player to upgrade their units to fit their playing style, and gives added variation on the battlefield.

[The Mr Z]

it's a good idea, but there is one slight problem: one option will have an advantage over the others.

I'll take the SM: unless normally he's very good already, the sheer toughness and power of the terminator armour means it'd be the obvious choice (especially as he should also get teleportation with terminator armour)

if he's good enough already then jump packs may be the obvious choice as he can jump in and cause chaos while the rest of your force catches up, or with other jump troops.

I can't really see any possible advantage of artificer armour over the other two, as he'd have to go in with other dedicated cc units, and the SM dedicated cc units are either jump-troopers or assult termies.

with the necron lord, i think the resi orb would be the obvious choice (especially for rushers, you could get all your lost rush infantry back) I'd choose that over the others unless there were a major disadvantage.

Don't get me wrong, it's very workable and one of the best ideas so far, but i think there'd need to be quite a bit of tweaking to ensure they're both different enough and equally usable.

[Dynamic Echo]

Ae - I expected there to be lots of tweaking. Also the SM captain in terminator armour would have disadvantage - much much slower, does not turn as fast, cannot be transported in rhino etc. Also would not receive personal teleporter as in DOW, actually I'm not sure why they put that in DOW as I can't think of any background for teleports except as ship to shore or ship to ship actions, as teleport equipment is too bulky. The only way I could see it working is if they were teleported up to an orbiting ship then teleported back down, which would take longer, unless they can just bypass the actual teleporter itself as in Star Trek. Anyway, I diverge. But if balanced correctly this could work.
On the other two things - artificer could actually give improved ballistic weapon and better protection from ranged attacks while the jump pack could obviously add a jump pack and increased health for melee attacks.

Edited by Dynamic Echo, 10 June 2008 - 03:56 PM.

[Boomerang Python]

Hmm its a good idea, if we can implement it in a good way we definately will.. it will indeed need a lot of balancing tho..

Actually i think you can implement it by having your vanilla commander being built and then have 3 upgrade buttons in the upgrades bar of the commander and when you've upgraded one the rest goes unavailable.. ho hum..

[The Mr Z]

Dynamic Echo: terminators are able to teleport in tt, at least to deep strike, even if not in combat (DS is less useful in DOW where battles last much longer with more units, making the element of surprise less effective. also the deep strike in with only 4 squad members) they have teleporters on their ships. i don't see why they couldn't bypass though, as it's warp based teleportation. and the advantage is it's the ultimate in flanking manouvoures, or for hurting the cc hating Tau.

the termie can't be made too slow or enemies will be able to just dance around him (move away so he can't get into cc) the jump pack will usually go in amongst other jet troopers, which provides a meat-shield, but the artificer armour can't as he's slower than them. a jet-marine meat shield will probably be better than that armour. as for improved ranged, unless it's going to be on the scale of the GDI commando, it's not going to be much good.

the problem with the artificer armour is it's an all-rounder, a combination of the other two. extra protection and firepower, but less than the termie. melee ability and speed, but less than the jet-pack.

[Dynamic Echo]

Dynamic Echo: terminators are able to teleport in tt, at least to deep strike, even if not in combat (DS is less useful in DOW where battles last much longer with more units, making the element of surprise less effective. also the deep strike in with only 4 squad members) they have teleporters on their ships. i don't see why they couldn't bypass though, as it's warp based teleportation. and the advantage is it's the ultimate in flanking manouvoures, or for hurting the cc hating Tau.

the termie can't be made too slow or enemies will be able to just dance around him (move away so he can't get into cc) the jump pack will usually go in amongst other jet troopers, which provides a meat-shield, but the artificer armour can't as he's slower than them. a jet-marine meat shield will probably be better than that armour. as for improved ranged, unless it's going to be on the scale of the GDI commando, it's not going to be much good.

the problem with the artificer armour is it's an all-rounder, a combination of the other two. extra protection and firepower, but less than the termie. melee ability and speed, but less than the jet-pack.

I know that they can deep strike in, and that is one of my favoured tactics. The only thing I dispute is the personal teleport system. I can recall no background information regarding such small-scale implementation of the technology. True, it may be possible for a bypass of the main teleportation machinery but again, there is no background on the matter.
The artificer armour space marine captain would be highly effective at range, but pretty useless at CQB. The jump-pack version would be excellent at CQB but next to useless at range. The terminator captain would be good at both but not as good as they others in their respective fields, however it would have better armour balanced with a slower movement speed. Basically, we would have two specialists and one 'jack of all trades, master of none' type captain classes. The changes I propose with each permutation are made clearer below. Of course, the use of a space marine captain is purely an example. I have used the 40k stat system for ease of understanding. I don't know whether a morale system will be incorporated so I have included leadership anyway.

Space Marine Captain options:

Basic:
WS: 5
BS: 5
S: 4
T: 4
W: 2
A: 3
I: 5
Ld: 9
Sv: 3+
Movement: 6

Weapons-
Ranged: Combi-plasma gun
Melee: Chainsword
Extra: Mines (very powerful but small area of effect and only one planted)

Artificer:
WS: 4
BS: 6
S: 4
T: 4
W: 2
A: 2
I: 4
Ld: 9
Sv: 2+ vs. Ranged attacks and 3+ versus melee attacks.
Movement: 6

Weapons-
Ranged: Custom artificer-made storm bolter. (Very powerful and accurate)
Melee: Combat knife.
Extra: Perhaps a short-term power which increases accuracy of nearby units.


Jump-Pack:
Artificer:
WS: 6
BS: 4
S: 5
T: 4
W: 2
A: 4
I: 6
Ld: 9
Sv: 2+ vs. melee attacks and 3+ versus ranged attacks.
Movement: 6 and Jump Pack

Weapons-
Ranged: Dual bolt pistols or single bolt pistols. (depending on artistic direction taken)
Melee: Power Sword
Extra: Perhaps nothing other than the jump pack.


Terminator:
Artificer:
WS: 5
BS: 5
S: 4
T: 4
W: 2
A: 3
I: 5
Ld: 10
Sv: 2+
Movement: 5

Weapons-
Ranged: Storm Bolter
Melee: Power axe (for some variation from jump-pack troops)
Extra: Ability to deep strike after being loaded into something like the orbital relay.

All captains would have an area of effect which increases the general stats of those around them to give people an added incentive to use them. Of course, those stats are only examples and would probably need tweaking.

[The Mr Z]

looks better. still some things to consider:

1. shouldn't the termie have a power fist? just saying.

2. if the termie can DS, then he can get into cc instantly.

3. how good is the artificer's ranged option going to be? if he's to good then nothing will get into cc with him.

i think it'd be best to try and not have an in between option, but rather another focus. perhaps if the termie had the shoulder missile launchers, he could focuse more on a heavy support/anti-tank role. leaving the original guy as the in-between.

[Dynamic Echo]

Yeah that could work, so cyclone missile launcher for the terminator commander. I'm not sure about the power fist thought as then people will have too much of an incentive to get into CC rather than use those missiles. The power axe wouldn't be particularly effective and would only be used defensively so you can easily tell him apart from any nearby terminators. True, Deep Strike could send him straight into CC but that wouldn't be too much of a problem due to the reason above. Also he could be 'disorientated' for a brief while after teleporting which would reduce all weapon effectiveness for, perhaps, two seconds?

[The Mr Z]

the power fist would also mean he's slower in combat, so while he deals massive damage with a single hit, he'd hit less often. could make him less effective.

the disorientation could simply be not doing anything. i believe in tt you either can't move or can't do anything on the round you arrive. a short time to let the enemies get stuck in would make it less useful than the jet pack.

[Dynamic Echo]

the power fist would also mean he's slower in combat, so while he deals massive damage with a single hit, he'd hit less often. could make him less effective.

the disorientation could simply be not doing anything. i believe in tt you either can't move or can't do anything on the round you arrive. a short time to let the enemies get stuck in would make it less useful than the jet pack.

Good point on the slower attacks of a power fist, that could work better while increasing effectiveness vs. vehicles which is the main role of the variant. For the disroientation I would have said not being able to do anything but I remembered back to some instances in DOW where I teleport some guys in (site to site) and they just sit there getting hacked apart for a while. That was really annoying and I think that might be alleviated if the unit actually does something to defend itself, if not very effectively.

[The Mr Z]

hmmm...while we're at it, why not make it a chain fist? can't say Anti-Tank more than that.

this being an RTS means the time would be a lot shorter than it seems in tt. in tt a whole round of immobility is often 1/6 of the game! in an RTS it's be more like 2 seconds. not enough to make it pointless jumping him in, but enough to ensure it can't be abused.