40 replies to this topic

[Praetyre]

While I know that the Death Star II has been removed from this mod for balance reasons, I have for some time been interested in recreating some of the more famous conflicts of Star Wars. Would this be a workable arrangement (derived from Wookieepedia information) provided one can surmount the issues of the DS II and population caps?

Also, is it historically accurate? Rebel fleet numbers are far less precise for this battle, and many units not in PR were (obviously) left out of this arrangement.

Galactic Empire Forces;
Fighters;
140 TIE Starfighter squadrons
60 TIE Interceptor squadrons
4 TIE Defender squadrons
Bombers;
60 TIE Bomber squadrons
Transports;
3 Lambda class transports
Frigates
2 Carrack class star frigates
Cruisers
1 Immobilizer 418 Cruiser
Destroyers;
10 Victory class Star Destroyers
“Capitals”
48 Imperial I class Star Destroyers
1 Tector class Star Destroyer
Dreadnoughts
1 Executor class Star Dreadnought
Heroes;
Emperor Palpatine
Darth Vader
Sate Pestage
Firmus Piett (with Accuser)
Gilad Pellaeon (with ISD)
Other;
The Second Death Star

Alliance to Restore the Republic Forces;
Fighters;
10 Z-95 Headhunter squadrons
30 T-65 X-wing squadrons
30 RZ-1 A-wing squadrons
Bombers;
15 BTL-Y wing squadrons
15 B-wing squadrons
Freighters;
3 GR-75 medium transports
Corvettes;
10 CR-90 corvettes
10 DP-20 corvettes
Frigates;
15 EF76 Nebulon-B escort frigates
Cruisers;
20 Dreadnought class heavy cruisers
3 Valiant class MC40 light cruisers
Destroyers;
5 Recusant class light destroyers
“Capitals”;
3 Liberty-class MC80 star cruisers
3 Reef Home-class MC80 star cruisers
Dreadnoughts;
2 Independence-class MC120 star cruisers
Heroes;
Mon Mothma
Admiral Ackbar (in Home One)
General Crix Madine
Tycho Celchu
Rogue Squadron (restorable?)

Edited by Praetyre, 15 April 2008 - 08:19 AM.

[keraunos]

Where do you take those numbers from?

[slornie]

Probably from here, since he mentioned Wookieepedia.

[Kaleb Graff]

Interesting idea, but the computer would run really slow.

[Praetyre]

I did indeed draw from the article you linked to. I calculated squadron numbers primarily by dividing my estimates, estimates from the SWTC or hard numbers for total number of units of a particular type by the amount per individual squadron for that unit.

The biggest issue I can see is the one of having 50 ISDs on the batlefield at once. Combined with the Executor, that could seriously eat up RAM and processing power. Plus, I'm not too sure if the Rebel fleet numbers (only 12 Mon Calamari capitals total, including light cruisers) I quoted could take on that many ships, though I suppose if a skilled enough player could do it, that would add to the realism of the whole battle.

Another potential problem is the DS II using it's superlaser to blast the Rebel capships. Maybe a slower recharge time (10-15 minutes instead of the old one) could be implemented to match movie numbers (though, the Empire player or AI would probably be more logical and blast Home One first).

Edited by Praetyre, 14 April 2008 - 01:21 AM.

[slornie]

Well, thats the whole issue with the Battle of Endor. The Rebel fleet couldn't take on the Imperial force head on. They only won due to the confusion caused by the destruction of the Death Star, Palpatine's death, and the loss of the Executor.

[keraunos]

Well, thats the whole issue with the Battle of Endor. The Rebel fleet couldn't take on the Imperial force head on. They only won due to the confusion caused by the destruction of the Death Star, Palpatine's death, and the loss of the Executor.

They couldn't even win this battle with Death Star & Executor destroyed. All the numbers are fabricated by rebel scum's propaganda. History is written by the victors...

[Praetyre]

Anyway.. any way to implement PR units into the map editor?

[slornie]

They couldn't even win this battle with Death Star & Executor destroyed. All the numbers are fabricated by rebel scum's propaganda. History is written by the victors...

Yes they could. The death of Palpatine cut off his Battle Meditation, thus reducing the effectiveness and morale of his troops. The destruction of the Death Star and the Executor caused huge confusion and panic in the Imperial forces, completely disrupted the chain of command, and resulted in a large portion of the fleet retreating (at Pellaeon's order).

[Tropical Bob]

I doubt those number for two reasons:

1. No Republic-class Star Destroyers would have been present for the Battle of Endor. They were constructed for the New Republic.
2. I don't care if the Death Star II and Executor and Palpatine's Battle Meditation were all sucked into a black hole. Even with confusion among the ranks, 25 Imperial-class Star Destroyers with their fighter complements alone could take the pitiful Rebel fleet. And apparently there was double that number, plus many other supporting ships. No sane Imperial commander, as Gilad Pellaeon was, would order a retreat. Especially if the Imperial commander was as dedicated to the chain of command as Pellaeon would be. He wouldn't circumvent a Grand Admiral.

[Praetyre]

Fixed

[keraunos]

Yes they could. The death of Palpatine cut off his Battle Meditation, thus reducing the effectiveness and morale of his troops. The destruction of the Death Star and the Executor caused huge confusion and panic in the Imperial forces, completely disrupted the chain of command, and resulted in a large portion of the fleet retreating (at Pellaeon's order).

In the meantime Rebels lost few ships as well - Death Star took out at least one MC80, and I assume Executor should do some damage at point blank range before its destruction. In Thrawn trilogy it is stated that with sith battle meditation Imperial troops operated (IIRC) at +40% efficency. But... it was 40% more then standard! And even standard should be higher for Empire (since its troops received real, proffessional training). Under such circumstances I think we should at least assume that Rebel forces were as strong as Imperial ones - that's why when Empire lost an edge (Executor+DS-II+chain of command) retreat was a viable option.

BTW, where did you take MC-120s at Endor? I thought they were introduced later...

Edited by keraunos, 15 April 2008 - 02:53 PM.

[skie9173]

2. I don't care if the Death Star II and Executor and Palpatine's Battle Meditation were all sucked into a black hole. Even with confusion among the ranks, 25 Imperial-class Star Destroyers with their fighter complements alone could take the pitiful Rebel fleet. And apparently there was double that number, plus many other supporting ships. No sane Imperial commander, as Gilad Pellaeon was, would order a retreat. Especially if the Imperial commander was as dedicated to the chain of command as Pellaeon would be. He wouldn't circumvent a Grand Admiral.

But for reasons unknown Gilad Pellaeon DID order a retreat. The chain of command basically broke down for a while with the Palpatine's death causing whiplash as his battle meditation ended. Also the rebels were able to due somewhat significant damage to various imperial ships in the opening parts of the battle as palpatine had orders that the rebels were not to be engaged by the fleet directly. Furthermore the rebel fleet was ordered by ackbar to engage the imperial fleet at very close range. If the imperials had brought their full weapons to bear on the rebel ships they would do (and did do) just as much damage to each other as they did to the rebel fleet. Also at this close range the death star could not fire it's super laser without risking imperial ships.


We can see the break down of imperial command and even foreshadowing of imperial commanders becoming warlords even this early after the death of the emperor. With his death the unifying force of the imperial fleet was gone and they lost much of their coordination. It doesn't take much to assume that the crews of each ship began to think in a way more focused on their own survival then of the empire as a whole.

Also keep in mind that the rebels did take quite a bit of damage during this battle, many of their ships were badly damaged or destroyed. Though they were able to recoup there loses with the capture of several imperial vessels. No my problem with the battle of endor isn't the rebel victory, I can see how they won even though it was a long shot and very unlikely. My problem is why the rebels sent pretty much their entire fleet to take on what they thought was a incomplete relatively unguarded space station that they new they only needed snub fighters to destroy

[Clubby]

They couldn't even win this battle with Death Star & Executor destroyed. All the numbers are fabricated by rebel scum's propaganda. History is written by the victors...

Yes they could. The death of Palpatine cut off his Battle Meditation, thus reducing the effectiveness and morale of his troops. The destruction of the Death Star and the Executor caused huge confusion and panic in the Imperial forces, completely disrupted the chain of command, and resulted in a large portion of the fleet retreating (at Pellaeon's order).

Wait, battle meditation?! I thought you couldn't move while doing that, ya know, cause your meditating... the uh, wookiepedia entry says it was actually a Grand Admiral that was force sensitive.

[Kaleb Graff]

Anyway.. any way to implement PR units into the map editor?

I've wondered this myself. Hope we hear from PR soon.

I doubt those number for two reasons:

1. No Republic-class Star Destroyers would have been present for the Battle of Endor. They were constructed for the New Republic.
2. I don't care if the Death Star II and Executor and Palpatine's Battle Meditation were all sucked into a black hole. Even with confusion among the ranks, 25 Imperial-class Star Destroyers with their fighter complements alone could take the pitiful Rebel fleet. And apparently there was double that number, plus many other supporting ships. No sane Imperial commander, as Gilad Pellaeon was, would order a retreat. Especially if the Imperial commander was as dedicated to the chain of command as Pellaeon would be. He wouldn't circumvent a Grand Admiral.

1. True.
2. What Grand Admiral? There were several at Endor, on the Death Star. And you fail to account for morale. Palpatine's battle meditation failed, and the Death Star and the Executor are both destroyed. Imperial morale would be low, while the rebel morale would be at amazing highs. Thus, the imps would retreat.

They couldn't even win this battle with Death Star & Executor destroyed. All the numbers are fabricated by rebel scum's propaganda. History is written by the victors...

Yes they could. The death of Palpatine cut off his Battle Meditation, thus reducing the effectiveness and morale of his troops. The destruction of the Death Star and the Executor caused huge confusion and panic in the Imperial forces, completely disrupted the chain of command, and resulted in a large portion of the fleet retreating (at Pellaeon's order).

Wait, battle meditation?! I thought you couldn't move while doing that, ya know, cause your meditating... the uh, wookiepedia entry says it was actually a Grand Admiral that was force sensitive.

Force sensitive Grand Admiral? Where did this come from? And also, the power Palpatine was using wasn't battle meditation. It was actually control mind. (Battle meditation is a light side power.)

[TheEmpire]

Yes there was one grand Admiral but I forgot his name! But he was on the Death star also so it would not have mattered.

[Badwolfwho]

Anyway.. any way to implement PR units into the map editor?

I've wondered this myself. Hope we hear from PR soon.

I doubt those number for two reasons:

1. No Republic-class Star Destroyers would have been present for the Battle of Endor. They were constructed for the New Republic.
2. I don't care if the Death Star II and Executor and Palpatine's Battle Meditation were all sucked into a black hole. Even with confusion among the ranks, 25 Imperial-class Star Destroyers with their fighter complements alone could take the pitiful Rebel fleet. And apparently there was double that number, plus many other supporting ships. No sane Imperial commander, as Gilad Pellaeon was, would order a retreat. Especially if the Imperial commander was as dedicated to the chain of command as Pellaeon would be. He wouldn't circumvent a Grand Admiral.

1. True.
2. What Grand Admiral? There were several at Endor, on the Death Star. And you fail to account for morale. Palpatine's battle meditation failed, and the Death Star and the Executor are both destroyed. Imperial morale would be low, while the rebel morale would be at amazing highs. Thus, the imps would retreat.

They couldn't even win this battle with Death Star & Executor destroyed. All the numbers are fabricated by rebel scum's propaganda. History is written by the victors...

Yes they could. The death of Palpatine cut off his Battle Meditation, thus reducing the effectiveness and morale of his troops. The destruction of the Death Star and the Executor caused huge confusion and panic in the Imperial forces, completely disrupted the chain of command, and resulted in a large portion of the fleet retreating (at Pellaeon's order).

Wait, battle meditation?! I thought you couldn't move while doing that, ya know, cause your meditating... the uh, wookiepedia entry says it was actually a Grand Admiral that was force sensitive.

Force sensitive Grand Admiral? Where did this come from? And also, the power Palpatine was using wasn't battle meditation. It was actually control mind. (Battle meditation is a light side power.)

Actually in Darth Bane: Path of Destruction Sith use it as well so it can't be solely a light side power also in KotOR

Spoiler

Dark Side Bastila uses it against the Old Republic fleet fighting against the Star Forge

[Tropical Bob]

The Sith version of the power is much stronger if the wielder can harness it. The Jedi version, Battle Meditation, is a skill that boosts morale and coordinates those being influenced. The Sith version, called Sith Battle Coordination, Sith Battle Meditation, etc., is more of a domination skill, being able to alter moods, emotions, and thoughts, as well as basic coordination.

There were four Grand Admirals aboard the Death Star II. Grand Admiral Nial Declann was a force-sensitive trained in the art of Battle Meditation, and died trying to rush toward Emperor Palpatine's side. Three escaped the Death Star II. Grand Admirals Miltin Takel and Afsheen Makati both fled. Grand Admiral Osvald Teshik led a counterattack on the Rebel scum until his flagship, called the Eleemosynary, was disabled by ion cannons and captured. I was mistaken on Admiral Harrsk, however. I had thought I saw his rank as Grand Admiral. The command of the Fleet was passed to him when Fleet Admiral Piett perished. Pellaeon didn't receive orders to, let alone permission for, a retreat of the Fleet from Admiral Harrsk.

Even if you account for morale, it's not enough for a highly disciplined Imperial Fleet with overwhelming strength in quality and quantity to break down so much to lose to a ragtag fleet of ships that were, for the most part, outdated and/or not even designed for combat. Saying that the loss of the Death Star II and the Executor would send the Imperials running for the hills is pretty much the same as saying that the bombing of Pearl Harbor and the destruction of the USS Arizona would have left the Pacific Navy in shambles and easy pickings for the Japanese.

You must remember that the Rebel scum didn't have strength for a Fleet on Fleet combat, and for a good reason. The main portion of the Rebel Fleet was massed for a feint at Sullust.

Edited by Tropical Bob, 15 April 2008 - 09:45 PM.

[Kaleb Graff]

Actually in Darth Bane: Path of Destruction Sith use it as well so it can't be solely a light side power also in KotOR

Spoiler

Dark Side Bastila uses it against the Old Republic fleet fighting against the Star Forge

I believe that this is a case of an uneducated author using the wrong name for a power. In the RPG sourcebooks, battle meditation is marked as a light side power and control mind as a dark side power. They have similar enough effects to be considered the same, though.

The Sith version of the power is much stronger if the wielder can handle it.

There were, I think, four Grand Admirals aboard the Death Star II. One or two managed to escape before its destruction, and one of them led a counterattack on the Rebel scum until his flagship, called the Eeyasqadns or something like that, was disabled by ion cannons and captured. Grand Admiral Harssk, however, was out in the Imperial Fleet, and was Pellaeon's superior. Pellaeon didn't receive orders to, let alone permission for, a retreat of the Fleet.

Even if you account for morale, it's not enough for a highly disciplined Imperial Fleet with overwhelming strength in quality and quantity to break down so much to lose to a ragtag fleet of ships that were, for the most part, outdated and/or not even designed for combat. Saying that the loss of the Death Star II and the Executor would send the Imperials running for the hills is pretty much the same as saying that the bombing of Pearl Harbor and the destruction of the USS Arizona would have left the Pacific Navy in shambles and easy pickings for the Japanese.

You must remember that the Rebel scum didn't have strength for a Fleet on Fleet combat, and for a good reason. The main portion of the Rebel Fleet was massed for a feint at Sullust.

Sullust was where the Rebel Fleet marshaled for the attack on Endor, not a feint. For the following, I will use the d20 RPG by wizards of the coast as my source. To clear up the difference between the powers once and for all, the fact is, battle meditation is useless in fleet combat, as it has a range of 10 m. The proper power is Inspire, which you have to be a Jedi to use (not dark). Control Mind, on the other hand, makes its user dark if used extensively, and give severe penalties to those effected when it ends. Also, let's use a mental model. You are a soldier. The invincible battle station has just blown up, your leader is dead, the flagship is gone, and (though you don't know it) you just lost the effects of control mind. This will likely make you feel pretty combat ineffective.

[keraunos]

The Sith version of the power is much stronger if the wielder can harness it. The Jedi version, Battle Meditation, is a skill that boosts morale and coordinates those being influenced. The Sith version, called Sith Battle Coordination, Sith Battle Meditation, etc., is more of a domination skill, being able to alter moods, emotions, and thoughts, as well as basic coordination.

There were four Grand Admirals aboard the Death Star II. Grand Admiral Nial Declann was a force-sensitive trained in the art of Battle Meditation, and died trying to rush toward Emperor Palpatine's side. Three escaped the Death Star II. Grand Admirals Miltin Takel and Afsheen Makati both fled. Grand Admiral Osvald Teshik led a counterattack on the Rebel scum until his flagship, called the Eleemosynary, was disabled by ion cannons and captured. I was mistaken on Admiral Harrsk, however. I had thought I saw his rank as Grand Admiral. The command of the Fleet was passed to him when Fleet Admiral Piett perished. Pellaeon didn't receive orders to, let alone permission for, a retreat of the Fleet from Admiral Harrsk.

Even if you account for morale, it's not enough for a highly disciplined Imperial Fleet with overwhelming strength in quality and quantity to break down so much to lose to a ragtag fleet of ships that were, for the most part, outdated and/or not even designed for combat. Saying that the loss of the Death Star II and the Executor would send the Imperials running for the hills is pretty much the same as saying that the bombing of Pearl Harbor and the destruction of the USS Arizona would have left the Pacific Navy in shambles and easy pickings for the Japanese.

You must remember that the Rebel scum didn't have strength for a Fleet on Fleet combat, and for a good reason. The main portion of the Rebel Fleet was massed for a feint at Sullust.

Where do you take this info from? I was always curious about later part of Endor (after destruction of DS-II)...

BTW, why to code units into mapeditor? Won't it be easier to create mini-campaign? 2 planets, AI turned off, you fly your fleet and have a battle...