40 replies to this topic

[Praetyre]

I was thinking that as an alternate option if the map editor proves less viable or too difficult to implement. I'd have to get the code for every unit and alter factions.xml, and probably also add in DS II in some way.

Says on the Wookiee article for the "MC80 Home One type Star Cruiser" that;

"Only three Home One type ships have been named: The Home One herself, the Independence, and the Defiance. All began military service in the early period of the Galactic Civil War, some time prior to the Battle of Yavin.[19][24]

As mentioned above, the Home One was originally designed for deep-space exploration, and was among the first ships selected for militarization when the Mon Calamari joined the Rebellion, being selected by Ackbar as his personal flagship.[6] It is probable that her sister-ships had a similar pre-war role, and they seem to have been refitted for war at around the same time, and shared a similar prominence when they entered Rebel service.

While all the Mon Cal vessels provided valuable capital ship firepower for the under-resourced Rebel Alliance, it appears that the Home One type served specifically as high-level command ships, with at least two of the three known ships acting as a mobile headquarters for the Alliance High Command.

The Independence served in this role before the Battle of Yavin,[19] and the Home One from the Battle of Hoth onwards.[15] The third known ship of the type, the Defiance, is less directly linked to the High Command, and seems to have served primarily as Admiral Nammo's flagship, but there are occasions where she may have been the fleet command ship in closest proximity to the Rebel leadership: in the evacuation of the High Command from Yavin 4,[source?] and in Anoat Sector immediately after the Battle of Hoth.[7]

During the climactic Battle of Endor, most of the Alliance's naval resources were gathered into their offensive fleet, and the Home One type ships added their firepower to the effort, being the largest Rebel capital ships used in the engagement.[8] The Independence served as communications ship, while the Defiance was placed in the rearguard, and Ackbar used the Home One as his fleet command ship.[21] It appears that General Crix Madine also commanded a division of the fleet from a ship of the same type, possibly the Independence.[23] At least one cruiser of the type was destroyed during the battle, however, as the second victim of the second Death Star's superlaser.[8] This could have been the Defiance, which is not recorded subsequently. "

So, at least 3 ships of these type were present, Home One, Crix Madine's command ship and the unknown ship destroyed by the Death Star II's attack. There were at maximum 12 Mon Calamari ships at Endor (SWTC: Warships of the Mon Calamari), and I, due to the large amount of variety in them, chose to divide them.

[slornie]

There were four Grand Admirals aboard the Death Star II. Grand Admiral Nial Declann was a force-sensitive trained in the art of Battle Meditation, and died trying to rush toward Emperor Palpatine's side. Three escaped the Death Star II. Grand Admirals Miltin Takel and Afsheen Makati both fled. Grand Admiral Osvald Teshik led a counterattack on the Rebel scum until his flagship, called the Eleemosynary, was disabled by ion cannons and captured. I was mistaken on Admiral Harrsk, however. I had thought I saw his rank as Grand Admiral. The command of the Fleet was passed to him when Fleet Admiral Piett perished. Pellaeon didn't receive orders to, let alone permission for, a retreat of the Fleet from Admiral Harrsk.

I was under the impression that Chimaera was directly below Executor in the chain of command at Endor, so after Executor was destroyed command would have transferred to Chimaera, whose captain was subsequently killed, leaving Pellaeon in command (who then ordered the retreat, presumably in realspace). Later on after the destruction of the Death Star, Grand Admiral Teshik rejoined the fleet and took command.

[TheEmpire]

Yes that is what happened. The captain of the Chimaera was killed. No one knows why he ordered the retreat.

[Praetyre]

Something I'd like to somehow implement. The main communications ship. Would it be a Imperial I/II, Tector or something else?

[Kaleb Graff]

BTW, why to code units into mapeditor? Won't it be easier to create mini-campaign? 2 planets, AI turned off, you fly your fleet and have a battle...

The point about the mini campaign is good. However, don't turn off the AI. Make both maps Endor, and have the AI launch immediately to take the player's planet, or see if the player can automatically attack.

There were four Grand Admirals aboard the Death Star II. Grand Admiral Nial Declann was a force-sensitive trained in the art of Battle Meditation, and died trying to rush toward Emperor Palpatine's side. Three escaped the Death Star II. Grand Admirals Miltin Takel and Afsheen Makati both fled. Grand Admiral Osvald Teshik led a counterattack on the Rebel scum until his flagship, called the Eleemosynary, was disabled by ion cannons and captured. I was mistaken on Admiral Harrsk, however. I had thought I saw his rank as Grand Admiral. The command of the Fleet was passed to him when Fleet Admiral Piett perished. Pellaeon didn't receive orders to, let alone permission for, a retreat of the Fleet from Admiral Harrsk.

I was under the impression that Chimaera was directly below Executor in the chain of command at Endor, so after Executor was destroyed command would have transferred to Chimaera, whose captain was subsequently killed, leaving Pellaeon in command (who then ordered the retreat, presumably in realspace). Later on after the destruction of the Death Star, Grand Admiral Teshik rejoined the fleet and took command.

Pellaeon ordered the retreat, and people followed him because he was making sense. The battle would have been a flurry of contradicting orders, but smart commanders saw that it was lost, and retreated.

Edited by Kaleb Graff, 16 April 2008 - 12:46 AM.

[Praetyre]

Could anyone suggest a good campaign editor capable of reading modded units into it's files?

[Dr. Nick]

There isn't one.

[Kaleb Graff]

Could anyone suggest a good campaign editor capable of reading modded units into it's files?

You don't need it. It's in the XMLs. (Campaigns.xml.)

[Praetyre]

Ok.. I've managed to set some of it up. Of course, it currently overwrites the Operation Shadow Hand campaign, due to the fact making a new campaign would require new text files and the like.

Apologies for being a question-hog, but how does one make both the GE and ARR playable? I have two copies of the campaign in the XML file, is it determined by the active player settings? When I go to the ARR from the Galactic Conquest menu, "Advanced" and "Start Game" are greyed out.

Edited by Praetyre, 16 April 2008 - 05:40 AM.

[Badwolfwho]

The Sith version of the power is much stronger if the wielder can handle it.

There were, I think, four Grand Admirals aboard the Death Star II. One or two managed to escape before its destruction, and one of them led a counterattack on the Rebel scum until his flagship, called the Eeyasqadns or something like that, was disabled by ion cannons and captured. Grand Admiral Harssk, however, was out in the Imperial Fleet, and was Pellaeon's superior. Pellaeon didn't receive orders to, let alone permission for, a retreat of the Fleet.

Even if you account for morale, it's not enough for a highly disciplined Imperial Fleet with overwhelming strength in quality and quantity to break down so much to lose to a ragtag fleet of ships that were, for the most part, outdated and/or not even designed for combat. Saying that the loss of the Death Star II and the Executor would send the Imperials running for the hills is pretty much the same as saying that the bombing of Pearl Harbor and the destruction of the USS Arizona would have left the Pacific Navy in shambles and easy pickings for the Japanese.

You must remember that the Rebel scum didn't have strength for a Fleet on Fleet combat, and for a good reason. The main portion of the Rebel Fleet was massed for a feint at Sullust.

Sullust was where the Rebel Fleet marshaled for the attack on Endor, not a feint. For the following, I will use the d20 RPG by wizards of the coast as my source. To clear up the difference between the powers once and for all, the fact is, battle meditation is useless in fleet combat, as it has a range of 10 m. The proper power is Inspire, which you have to be a Jedi to use (not dark). Control Mind, on the other hand, makes its user dark if used extensively, and give severe penalties to those effected when it ends. Also, let's use a mental model. You are a soldier. The invincible battle station has just blown up, your leader is dead, the flagship is gone, and (though you don't know it) you just lost the effects of control mind. This will likely make you feel pretty combat ineffective.

According to Wookiepedia

Battle meditation was a manifestation of the Force which instilled in the meditator's allies a greater morale in battle and reduced the enemy's will to fight. Using the Force, one could coordinate entire fleets of ships, allowing them to perform at maximum efficiency, acting as one to counter every enemy move quickly and effectively.

[keraunos]

Something I'd like to somehow implement. The main communications ship. Would it be a Imperial I/II, Tector or something else?

What could it do? If for some kind of bonuses, it's IMO pointless... You get bonuses from heroes/minor heroes - and that's because they have ships acting as com centers & efficent commanders running them.

[Kaleb Graff]

Ok.. I've managed to set some of it up. Of course, it currently overwrites the Operation Shadow Hand campaign, due to the fact making a new campaign would require new text files and the like.

Apologies for being a question-hog, but how does one make both the GE and ARR playable? I have two copies of the campaign in the XML file, is it determined by the active player settings? When I go to the ARR from the Galactic Conquest menu, "Advanced" and "Start Game" are greyed out.

The two copies are one for each faction.

According to Wookiepedia

Battle meditation was a manifestation of the Force which instilled in the meditator's allies a greater morale in battle and reduced the enemy's will to fight. Using the Force, one could coordinate entire fleets of ships, allowing them to perform at maximum efficiency, acting as one to counter every enemy move quickly and effectively.

That's what inspire/control mind do. The power is slightly diffrent, but it ammounts to the same thing. And I would consider the RPG books higher sources because the data includes numbers.

Something I'd like to somehow implement. The main communications ship. Would it be a Imperial I/II, Tector or something else?

What could it do? If for some kind of bonuses, it's IMO pointless... You get bonuses from heroes/minor heroes - and that's because they have ships acting as com centers & efficent commanders running them.

You could make such ships as commander level II. That might be a good idea. You could have diffrent levels of commanders for both ground and space, with diffrent bonuses.

[Praetyre]

I've come across a strange problem.. I've reviewed G-canon movie footage from the Battle of Endor (specifically, this; ) and (at 1:06 to 1:10 of the video) I did a count of the small, distant ISD-shaped objects, discounting the Executor. I could find only 24. How did these other 26 ISDs show up?

[TheEmpire]

Not all could be seen so could have been behind the other ships.

[Praetyre]

Well, managed to get it working on Empire side, though Palpy/Pestage/Piett group on the Executor rather than on the DS II and Vader remains in his Advanced rather on the DS II. Also, the FPS is about 0.3 or something, but eliminating some unnecessary ships might help that somewhat.

What precisely is the critical difference to determine campaign playability? I've gone through the XMLs with no success, and the names are the same even in the vanilla PR files.

Edited by Praetyre, 17 April 2008 - 03:21 AM.

[keraunos]

You could make such ships as commander level II. That might be a good idea. You could have diffrent levels of commanders for both ground and space, with diffrent bonuses.

We have to assume that every major commander commands a command ship... And we already have diffrent bonuses: weakest for generic commanders and stronger for heroes. In my mod I plan to implement 3-command-levels (generic commanders-heroes-space commanders (Thrawn, Ackbar, Bel Iblis)).

If we introduce heroes, we have to agree that they are supposed to be heroes: be better at doing things and able to survive more punishment (otherwise AI loses them too fast).

I've come across a strange problem.. I've reviewed G-canon movie footage from the Battle of Endor (specifically, this; ) and (at 1:06 to 1:10 of the video) I did a count of the small, distant ISD-shaped objects, discounting the Executor. I could find only 24. How did these other 26 ISDs show up?

They are hidding behind the pillar

Edited by keraunos, 17 April 2008 - 11:46 AM.

[Kaleb Graff]

You could make such ships as commander level II. That might be a good idea. You could have diffrent levels of commanders for both ground and space, with diffrent bonuses.

We have to assume that every major commander commands a command ship... And we already have diffrent bonuses: weakest for generic commanders and stronger for heroes. In my mod I plan to implement 3-command-levels (generic commanders-heroes-space commanders (Thrawn, Ackbar, Bel Iblis)).

If we introduce heroes, we have to agree that they are supposed to be heroes: be better at doing things and able to survive more punishment (otherwise AI loses them too fast).

I meant like commander ranks. It would be nice to get away from the one-size fits all commanders we have now. Say we would have 4 different types of naval commanders: Commanders, Captains, Vice Admirals and Admirals. This would allow you to get better commanders for more important fleets. The same would apply to ground, and possibly to starfighters.

[keraunos]

I meant like commander ranks. It would be nice to get away from the one-size fits all commanders we have now. Say we would have 4 different types of naval commanders: Commanders, Captains, Vice Admirals and Admirals. This would allow you to get better commanders for more important fleets. The same would apply to ground, and possibly to starfighters.

For me it still means creating better heroes, not ships Though entire idea of upgrading not only units but ranks (& better bonuses) is great It could simulate experience

BTW, Kaleb, I just realised you're an ultimate spammer There's almost no thread without your name, and most end with your posts

[Kaleb Graff]

I meant like commander ranks. It would be nice to get away from the one-size fits all commanders we have now. Say we would have 4 different types of naval commanders: Commanders, Captains, Vice Admirals and Admirals. This would allow you to get better commanders for more important fleets. The same would apply to ground, and possibly to starfighters.

For me it still means creating better heroes, not ships Though entire idea of upgrading not only units but ranks (& better bonuses) is great It could simulate experience

BTW, Kaleb, I just realised you're an ultimate spammer There's almost no thread without your name, and most end with your posts

I have a lot of time on my hands, so I tend to read and reply to all topics that interest me. That's most of them, but not all. By better heroes, do you mean just increasing the bonuses heroes give? I'm not talking about upgrades, so much as different units. It's not meant to simulate experience, it is intended to simulate reality.

[keraunos]

I meant like commander ranks. It would be nice to get away from the one-size fits all commanders we have now. Say we would have 4 different types of naval commanders: Commanders, Captains, Vice Admirals and Admirals. This would allow you to get better commanders for more important fleets. The same would apply to ground, and possibly to starfighters.

For me it still means creating better heroes, not ships Though entire idea of upgrading not only units but ranks (& better bonuses) is great It could simulate experience

BTW, Kaleb, I just realised you're an ultimate spammer There's almost no thread without your name, and most end with your posts

I have a lot of time on my hands, so I tend to read and reply to all topics that interest me. That's most of them, but not all. By better heroes, do you mean just increasing the bonuses heroes give? I'm not talking about upgrades, so much as different units. It's not meant to simulate experience, it is intended to simulate reality.

I doubt AI will be able to use this feature effectively - we won't be able to tell it to do so, AFAIK. I'd stick to current, character-driven system: we assume that every ship group has it's captains/commanders/admirals; some has better ones (represented by Fleet Commanders); the best ones start as good commanders, but as the war progresses they gain respect and are recognized, are given promotions & better ships (and in the same time, as experience accumulates, they become better at commanding ships).