21 replies to this topic

[Mastermind]

I'm currently working on putting together a paper on the C&C modding community, and as part of it would like to gather information on why people chose to modify C&C games. I was going to try to make a poll, but it's rather hard to boil something as complex as this down to a few simple questions. Instead, I'm going to leave this open ended.

Why did you decide to mod whatever C&C game you do (please specify)?

Also, if you're modding an older game (such as RA2 or TS, or Generals), why did you decide to keep modding that, and not switch to C&C 3?

If you've got anecdotes (stories) about modding in the Red Alert days, I'd love to hear them. How did you find out about modding Red Alert, and why did you do it?

Some new questions:
How important do you feel official support is for modding games?

What tools do you use when modding a game? Please specify the tools and the game so that I can correlate the two.

For your quotes to be used in the paper, I need them in the next week or two. I'll be glad to keep the discussion going longer than that, but your chance at being used as a source in a paper at MIT will be gone.

[Viper Of Hades]

Why did you decide to mod whatever C&C game you do

because its fun, challenging, makes yer feel like a h4x0r and allows you to correct any gameplay errors that get on yer nerves. No flamin me plz:-)

[Banshee]

Why did you decide to mod whatever C&C game you do (please specify)?

Tiberian Sun, because it allowed me to create new units (and at the moment I started modding it was the latest game). I wanted to create my own RTS game in a quick and cheaper way than creating a whole engine from scratch.

Also, if you're modding an older game (such as RA2 or TS, or Generals), why did you decide to keep modding that, and not switch to C&C 3?

My lack of 3D modelling ability makes TS much more attractive than C&C3. And even if I was a good 3D modeller, TS is far more simple to mod than C&C3.

How did you find out about modding Red Alert, and why did you do it?

In a page with tips for err.... errr... cheating the game :S .

How important do you feel official support is for modding games?

I think it is important that the engine is friendly for any modder and who makes the engine is the developper. A friendly and flexible map editor is also a great step on the creation of a strong modding editor, which made Starcraft and Warcraft 3 mod map making community very strong. But C&C prooves that it is not the only thing needed for a strong modding community. C&C was successfull because the file formats used in the games were easily decoded (or given away) to the community. The tools provided by community made modding for these games accessible. C&C3 works in a different way and it is only moddable because of the official mod SDK, which explains one of the reasons why old school modding is still stronger than C&C3 modding community. So, the developper support is important for providing:

1) A friendly engine.
2) Basic tools.
3) Information for modders and tool makers.

What tools do you use when modding a game? Please specify the tools and the game so that I can correlate the two.

Tiberian Sun is moddable with XCC Mixer, XCC Mix Editor, Notepad++, 3ds Max, OS SHP Builder and Voxel Section Editor III. Red Alert 2 needs an additional tool to play with the string files, or use the tool included on XCC Mixer.

[Beowulf]

Why did you decide to mod whatever C&C game you do (please specify)?

The short answer - because I could, and curiosity played a big part too. I played a lot of mods back when I got Red Alert 2 and wondered if I could make anything similar. I tried it out, did some research, discovered some things on my own and made a few ventures into public mods. I eventually went back and worked with Tiberian Sun and Red Alert, and now am working with Zero Hour.

Also, if you're modding an older game (such as RA2 or TS, or Generals), why did you decide to keep modding that, and not switch to C&C 3?

I like the simplicity that Westwood's games employ. Far easier than tagging everything like a website; stupid XML coding. And not to mention, the communities for the previous generation's games are well established and more able to answer your questions or provide public resources for use in mods.

How important do you feel official support is for modding games?

That's a mixed bag for me. If the support is there and done well, that's just icing on the cake. However, it's not obsolutely necessary for spawning a vibrant community.

What tools do you use when modding a game? Please specify the tools and the game so that I can correlate the two.

That all depends on what I'm working on at the time. I normally use the open source text editor Notepad++ for all coding I have to do, and for anything graphical in 2 dimensions, it's Paint Shop Pro 7. And of course, the XCC Mixer for the C&C series. Can't forget that.

Edited by Beowulf, 29 April 2008 - 01:29 PM.

[Mastermind]

Added a couple more questions for people.

[KaRsKiN]

I've always had a vivid imagination, a sense of what if? Whenever i've played games.

I first got into modding when i downloaded other peoples mods and i thought, i want to have a go at this. Like Banshee said, modding C&C lets me create whatever i wan't, heck with enough patience you can create a whole new game, you only have to look at D-Day for that!

I choose to Mod RA2 because of the ease of use. Even though i prefer TS as a game, the RA2 engine has a lot more features and with the right amount of work the possibilities are nigh on endless. The TS/RA2 engine uses Voxel and .shp technology and so people with no 3D experience (myself included) can, with enough patience and willingness to learn can create new graphics withg relative ease. The idea of an .ini based engine also makes the C&C series as a whole very attractive to prospective modders, modding C&C is so simple, that almost ANYONE can make a simple mod, even if it's just changing the stats of a unit!

I think thats why people as a whole mod C&C, me personally, i've always liked the Tiberian storyline, i loved TS and Firestorm, the atmposphere and mood of the series is brilliant. By modding RA2, i can bring my own thoughts and feelings about the series to life in whatever way i want, the mod im currently working on is for this reason, i'm filling in blanks in the storyline with MY own imagination, with ideas dreamt up in MY head.

In short, modding alows ME to do what ANYTHING i want, it's like a creative outlet for my imagination, rather than drawing like some people, or writing music, i create video games, but without having to spend years learning how to code and how to do 3D graphics.

Even though Official support for mods isn't great, the fact that they so openly allow us to do this, and the fact that the game is so easily moddable is enough for me. Westwood/EA has always been good to the C&C community and i think the fact that even 7 years later, people are still modding RA2 highlights this! And can only be seen as a testament to a great series of games!

The real jewel of Modding RA2 is the community support. The amount of work and effort put into the modding community is astounding! Software such as Voxel Section Editor, XCC Tools and SHP Builder all make modding the game possible and it truley is breathtaking to see how much some people put into bringing the imaginations of the modding community to life. Help is always available to new comers, even 8 years after the game was released, new mods are always being released, and some are still in production! Thousands of files are available as public assets so that even people who cannot master the most basic forms of graphics are still able to mod! Heck nearly everyones first mod was a collection of material from Yuri's Revenge: Argentina

So there it is, basically why i mod. Because the game allows me to, and because i can do ANYTHING i want, where the only limit to what's possible is my imagination!

[Sedistix]

Why did you decide to mod whatever C&C game you do (please specify)?

Usually because I believe the final product is not up to my expectations and standards. In other cases, simply to expand upon the games life expectancy. New content and or gameplay mechanics can revive otherwise boring games.

Also, if you're modding an older game (such as RA2 or TS, or Generals), why did you decide to keep modding that, and not switch to C&C 3?

Once CNC3 came out, I abandoned all modding efforts on prior games in the series.

How important do you feel official support is for modding games?

Very! Modding adds to the replay value almost indefinitely, so long as the tech is supported by whatever MS or MAC OS available its possible to stick with the game for as long as you choose. Mod-ability, is becoming a crucial feature in the consumers eyes these days, even for those who do not mod. I seen several associates of mine pass on otherwise good or even great games, because the modding potential and or support was either none existent or very poor. I myself share those opinions, and only get involved in games that can be altered with official or unofficial tools. With out the option of mods, the life expectency of any game drops dramatically. You finish it, and boom, thats it. Whats left?

What tools do you use when modding a game? Please specify the tools and the game so that I can correlate the two.

Notepad++
Hex Workshop
PaintShop Pro
Official (game tools) if applicable
3D Max
Bryce 5

Edited by Sedistix, 27 April 2008 - 01:43 AM.

[Romanul]

1.I decided to do it mostly because RA2YR was pretty poor in its engine,its graphics and its ideas.That inspired people in modding it,not to mention that 2D games are easy to mod and its a good start for an modder.

2.I decided to keep it,because the game itself was very original,simple to mod,and when modding it,you dont have too many complications.

3.Don't understand "anecdotes",but one of my friends said about RA:Its Red Alert because the war is red and we like it as it is.Bloody.

4.Official support should be an primary thing for the major companies.Beside the hand given to the comunity,their sales can increase.

5.RA2:Voxel Section Editor III;3Ds max;OS SHP Builder;notepad;an good string editor;XCC mixer;NPatch;HVA builder;Flyby's script for 3dsmax;3DS2VXL;Adobe Photoshop and a lot of ideas,sketches and others.

"How did you find out about modding Red Alert, and why did you do it?"

One day,i was browsing the net after red alert(me who didnt had any game news for months).Then,after getting on the TFD site,i saw some pictures made by fans.After looking some more i found something interesting:an mod called Mental Omega.
Those days,i started googling about MO(which i got there luckily due to an polish site).The mod looked awsome for me,making me staying and looking at the site for months but didnt played,due to an old illegal copy of RA2+YR.That thing made me nuts:It was pretty annoying to see some awsomeness in your face and can't touch it.After that,i started modding YR,ignoring at the beggining code errors,Revora members(many of them are still upset on me,sorry guys) and my lack of english.
But in time,after(1,2,3,4...)6 failed mods I started working on Empire Wars,thinking at making something exotic,unique and interesting in gameplay.

Edited by secret, 28 April 2008 - 06:18 AM.

[Nighthawk]

Forewarning: I haven't read anyone else's replies, so if I'm basically reiterating what you said, I apologise.

Why did you decide to mod whatever C&C game you do (please specify)?

TS / RA2 - Because I find the engine simple enough to work with, yet still able to actualise a lot of my ideas.
C&C3 - New game, new possibilities. The engine's somewhat harder though.

Also, if you're modding an older game (such as RA2 or TS, or Generals), why did you decide to keep modding that, and not switch to C&C 3?

Being both a Guild hostee and the Division Head of CNC3.net, I'm somewhere in the middle, trying to work with both

If you've got anecdotes about modding in the Red Alert days, I'd love to hear them. How did you find out about modding Red Alert, and why did you do it?

I started with Tiberian Sun, so modding RA1 wasn't something I really did. I think it extended as far as having everything armed with a Mammoth Tank's gun

How important do you feel official support is for modding games?

Mod support can help extend a product's life for quite a while. I've seen people even as recent as a year ago go out to buy YR primarily because of its mod support, and the fact that it's needed to run just about every mod now. With the older games, mod support wasn't really a necessity, because the files weren't encrypted anyway, so raw editing of the unextracted files was possible. With the newer games though, this becomes more difficult. Especially now with C&C3 and KW, which are encrypted, and therefore require the source files from EA. However, mod support itself needs to be backed up with an easy to work with engine, and developers aren't going to make a game with that in mind. If they can build their game out of it, then I don't think they'd be that bothered if some kid on the other side of the world can't change value x (unless of course they want people to mod their game).

What tools do you use when modding a game? Please specify the tools and the game so that I can correlate the two.

TS / RA2 - Notepad, XCC Mixer, FinalAlert 2, FinalSun, OS SHP Builder, Voxel Section Editor, Paint Shop Pro.
C&C3 - Notepad++ (I need the syntax highlighting ), Paint Shop Pro (to an extent, I don't do much art stuff).


I hope I've helped. Apologies if I've just spewed out a pile of crap .

[OmegaBolt]

Why did you decide to mod whatever C&C game you do (please specify)?

I decided to mod Ra2 because it was basically the only "latest" game I could play on my laptop back in '05. It's also very simple to pull off once you know what to do and of course C&Cs background allows for good C&C story modifications and not just TCs. 2D makes it easier and theres a lot of community support from the past years since release, giving endless amounts of free source stuff to play with and modding tools.

Also, if you're modding an older game (such as RA2 or TS, or Generals), why did you decide to keep modding that, and not switch to C&C 3?

C&C3 has an epic amount of files in it, I feel. Sure this allows very specific adjustments but hell I wouldnt be able to keep track. I also dislike the C&C3 mod builder EA has produced... I prefer how Ra2/TS modding went, where the community produced good modding tools to use and there was hardly any official support. That way the game devs can't make sure you only edit what they want you to edit. Home grown tools means the game is going to last longer, as time has to be spent of figuring the game out, making sure people are interested. When theres official tools people don't have get attached to the game...

How important do you feel official support is for modding games?

As I said above, it's better if there isnt any IMO. It stops people getting lazy if they have to work to be able to mod the game and it keeps the community alive. As long as the devs don't try and STOP modding, then its fine to leave it alone.

What tools do you use when modding a game? Please specify the tools and the game so that I can correlate the two.

For Ra2; Notepad for editing the INIs, XCC Mixer for almost everything else. She's a beaut. XCC Mod Creator for compiling the launchers and NPatch for extra logics. See, not one official tool in sight except for Final Alert 2 map editor, but that was made official after development.

[Apollo]

Why did you decide to mod whatever C&C game you do (please specify)?

I chose RA2/YR for my main project due to the best flexibility regards 2D modding available in it.

Also, if you're modding an older game (such as RA2 or TS, or Generals), why did you decide to keep modding that, and not switch to C&C 3?

Tried modding C&C3 and did so successfully but in the end, it's just too workful for even simple things when one must constantly recompile every minor change along existing data as opposed to just adding to existing data without recompiling them as well.

I doubt anyone praises the DOS age compiler either which really is not friendly to the average joe.

If you've got anecdotes about modding in the Red Alert days, I'd love to hear them. How did you find out about modding Red Alert, and why did you do it?

Being fascinated by the game enough to bother and downloading various mods helped to study the modding potential for own ideas.

How important do you feel official support is for modding games?

Well it is important but it seems that developers seem to think in most minimalistic sense when providing tools and thus limiting modding potential. Shamefully its also that the modding isn't initially considered so much for the game so some features/tools can not be given to modders for licensing reasons.

What tools do you use when modding a game? Please specify the tools and the game so that I can correlate the two.

Xcc Mixer, Xcc Mod creator, Notepad++ (ini), Voxel Section Editor, Hva Builder being pretty vital with RA2/YR.

[Mastermind]

I should clarify, anecdotes just means stories. I've updated the first post as well. Also, I'd actually prefer people not read all of the posts, and just give me their opinion. I don't want a consensus, I want individual views.

[DCoder]

Why did you decide to mod whatever C&C game you do (please specify)? How did you find out about modding Red Alert, and why did you do it?

Long ago, there was a program called Oscar... among other stuff, Red Alert I's rules.ini was in it. After a short while using it to cheat, I turned to modifying it for less silly purposes. Then dug around in TD with a hex-editor and hexed some maps right there, without the extract-edit-leave in directory step... When TS came out, and the rules had all those new logics, I was hooked. Then RA2. Then YR. Then I got internet access and found the modding communities. There I learned things and stayed, messing with all those games when I was bored. But I never really intended to release any mods, just to screw around with stuff for my own amusement. Nowadays, I don't really mod anymore, I spend my free time analysing YR's guts in a disassembler and documenting things I find. (And tearing my hair out at some stupid code I find.) Why C&C and not other games? Actually C&Cs are just part of the games I modify in my free time But they are my favourite.

Also, if you're modding an older game (such as RA2 or TS, or Generals), why did you decide to keep modding that, and not switch to C&C 3?

I stay with the pre-Generals games because I find 3D RTS to be less interesting than 2D ones, and because Generals and later games don't run so well on my aging system. Plus there's nostalgia for the great old days...

If you've got anecdotes (stories) about modding in the Red Alert days, I'd love to hear them.

No, unless you count that bit about hex-editing things right in the mix, but I have a collection of code snippets from YR that would feel right at home at TheDailyWTF.

How important do you feel official support is for modding games?

How much time was spent reverse-engineering the formats in TS/RA2? MIX, SHP, VXL, TMP, VQA, [IsoMapPackx] ? Official support would probably have made that unnecessary (though it's perfectly possible to publish a totally crap editor as "official" and pat yourself on the back). All we got was a Westwood sticker on FA2, great. Look at Unreal series for official support done right.
If the game wasn't built with modding in mind (or your team consists of slackers who don't know the difference between Debug and Release mode in their compiler, hi there Westwood), tacking on hastily-made band aids won't help much - de-hardcoding things will waste time over and over, and you will suddenly have all these extra features to test... Gets extra fun if the game code was written sloppily in the first place and evolved into a great ball of spaghetti over the years, and even the things that seem to be straightforward to modify blow up in your face (RA2 ImmuneToRadiation, I'm looking at you).

What tools do you use when modding a game? Please specify the tools and the game so that I can correlate the two.

I don't only use the tools, I also make them (For YR) I use XCC Mixer, a text editor (EditPad Pro), a mix editor I coded myself, FA2 sometimes (nothing but terrain layout, the rest I code in a text editor), and disassembling tools like IDA Pro. Art modifying is not my forte, so I don't really use shp/voxel editing tools. The other tools I wrote, INI Checker and AI Editor, even though outdated, are still being downloaded often, so I guess other people use them. Currently I'm working on a C++ program to modify YR's code at runtime so patching the executable itself is not required. (Writing assembler in hex is fun, for certain definitions of "fun".)

[Mastermind]

The tools and tutorial people are almost a sub-culture of their own, and being one of them, I know the feeling. It would be kinda neat to see some of the code snippets you're talking about, TDWTF is almost a daily routine for me. Thanks for all the responses, and keep them coming. I'm working on putting together my first draft right now, but there's still a while before the final draft. So, keep the stories coming.

[KaRsKiN]

I think one of the main reasons people modded originally is to cheat the game

I know i did, using SunEdit, i think it's called to make invincible Titans

Heck, even the other day i edited the stats of the Heavy Tank in RA1 because i was stuck!

Now thats putting modding skills to good use!

[Medalmonkey]

Why did you decide to mod whatever C&C game you do (please specify)?

Well, when I started playing Command and Conquer the voices where what got me at first. After I heard the infantry talk, watched them go to war, and saw them die, I fell in love with the game. After playing for years, I thought I could improve the game play, by just adding a few simple units to the game, so I would draw and write stories about the units I wanted to add (This was like 10+ years ago). Eventually I got photoshop and started to make graphics. When Tiberian Sun came out I was in love with the music, and the units. I never really started to mod the game until Red alert 2 though. It was Godwin, and Detail who got me into modding the game (Infantry are my favorite.)

Also, if you're modding an older game (such as RA2 or TS, or Generals), why did you decide to keep modding that, and not switch to C&C 3?

I like pixels, I've never been a fan of 3D renders.

If you've got anecdotes (stories) about modding in the Red Alert days, I'd love to hear them. How did you find out about modding Red Alert, and why did you do it?

I used to always add new units into red alert 2, and play against my dad on network. It was fun because it was like a homemade mod, that no one else ever had. I remember my dad hated playing against me because I already knew the stats of all of the units I had added, and what would kill what, so I always had a huge advantage.
I came across Editing Source and Sleipnirstuff a long time ago, and started checking out what people had done, and wanted to do it myself.
The only real reason I modded Ra2 was because.... Its fun! I like making stuff, what can I say? Infact from time to time, I still make new infantry for RA2.
I just made this frame yesterday:

How important do you feel official support is for modding games?

I like modding community's because its just a group of people who all pretty much try to make the game as good as possible. I love people who are always trying new things.
I've always thought that games that let you mod them are much more fun. Its just like saying "Hey I made this, come play it, and change it!"

What tools do you use when modding a game? Please specify the tools and the game so that I can correlate the two.

MS Paint, Notepad, Photoshop, Image Ready, Animation Shop.

[Pendaelose]

Why did you decide to mod whatever C&C game you do (please specify)?

I mod ZeroHour. Mostly because I saw something that I almost loved and wanted to see it become what I wanted to play. Then I realized that if I like these changes other people may aswell.

Also, if you're modding an older game (such as RA2 or TS, or Generals), why did you decide to keep modding that, and not switch to C&C 3?

because I didn't enjoy CnC3 at all. Its so much harder to build up excitment for modding something you hate. And, just as important, I hadn't finished the work I started on ZH, finishing my current project is a little more important than what I'll work on next.

How important do you feel official support is for modding games?

It certainly helps. If a game developer wants to be taken seriously as premier studeo they won't get far without mod support.

What tools do you use when modding a game? Please specify the tools and the game so that I can correlate the two.

Zero Hour... I use the Renegade tool kit, to include GMax/RenX and W3D viewer. I also use Paintshop Pro, Final Big, XCCMixer, and notepad.

[Allied General]

Why did you decide to mod whatever C&C game you do (please specify)?

I chose RA2/YR because I use to have plenty of laughs playing custom FA2 maps online. I tried various mods and decided I could mod.

Also, if you're modding an older game (such as RA2 or TS, or Generals), why did you decide to keep modding that, and not switch to C&C 3?

Machine can't handle it and I'm not great at compiling code, 3D artwork. Seemed too much work.

If you've got anecdotes about modding in the Red Alert days, I'd love to hear them. How did you find out about modding Red Alert, and why did you do it?

Eclipse Network forums, the older members like Godwin and Blade were very helpful in such days. Then PC broke until I rejoined community by finding cnc guild.

How important do you feel official support is for modding games?

Useful but also limiting. Too much hardcoded rubbish, only mods which gain attention must seem to have like 10+ members, 3D total conversions of old ww games which I believe are hyped too much.

What tools do you use when modding a game? Please specify the tools and the game so that I can correlate the two.

XCC tools, CNC tools developed by Banshee and co and good old notepad for ini coding

[Mig Eater]

Why did you decide to mod whatever C&C game you do (please specify)?

I have always been creative, making things out of old boxes as a kid etc so when I got a PC I just moved from real too virtual boxes so to speak. A friend game me Command & Conquer soon after I got my first PC & then not long after Tiberian Sun was released. I just messed around with TS doing random things but it taught me the basics that where then later used making full mods for Red Alert 2.

Also, if you're modding an older game (such as RA2 or TS, or Generals), why did you decide to keep modding that, and not switch to C&C 3?

I guess the main reason would be unfinished business, I haven’t finished my RA2 mod yet and I’m not going anywhere until it’s done.

How important do you feel official support is for modding games?

Initially it helps but if people are motivated enough they will find ways of doing what they want even with out official help. RA2 community is a pretty good example as there has been pretty much zero modding support but more can be done with the game then any other C&C title because of just a few skilled people.

What tools do you use when modding a game? Please specify the tools and the game so that I can correlate the two.

I could write a huge list here, as I will use anything & everything I can get my hands on to help me, I often use four different voxel editors just to make one model for example. The most commonly used ones are XCC Mixer, Will’s Voxel Editor, DMZ’s HVA Editor, Photoshop & Notepad ++ tho

[Aro]

Why did you decide to mod whatever C&C game you do (please specify)?

I Never really just suddenly decided to mod C&C, it was just something that grabbed my interest. I'd always been interested in mapping since I discovered the RA1 Map editor. From that point onwards, any other C&C game that found it's way onto my shelf I would look for some kind of map editor for it. I've been mapping now from TD to Generals, around 7 years, but only in the past 2 years have I learned some great tricks. 3 Years ago, I joined up in the C&C community, and looking at what everyone else was doing, I thought that I'd give it a go. Now I'm enjoying it, one of my favorite hobbies.

Also, if you're modding an older game (such as RA2 or TS, or Generals), why did you decide to keep modding that, and not switch to C&C 3?

The first two games I really actually made mods for where TS/FS and RA2/YR (RA2 Being the first), so I'm used to them, whereas modding for C&C3 would be out of my interest range. I Dislike the game itself, therefore modding it wont be much funner. Plus, until I finish my projects, there is very little chance I'll be moving on to any other game to mod.

How important do you feel official support is for modding games?

It's Dependant on the mod. If the people who're running the mod(s) are publicity whores, then the official support is very important. I Like the C&C community because I have people to help me get my projects up to an even better standard. One of the things I like about C&C communities is that there are always new things, and I like to see that, people using their skills and or imagination to produce some excellent work, which can be used in mods from either now or possibly many years from now.

What tools do you use when modding a game? Please specify the tools and the game so that I can correlate the two.

While making Twisted Insurrection, I've used a huge amount of tools, I couldn't possibly list them all. For me, the most commonly used tools would be:
EditPadPro for Hex editing and INI editing.
FinalSun.
XCC Utilities.