45 replies to this topic

[empireruler]

on Ulfsarks ...

Gotta dispute you on that

You are most welcome ...

... very good with some substantial debate, I think both Ulfsarks and Berserkers need some more explanation - I'll be away on some business for a few days, so for now just this:

• Don't trust Wikipedia etc. too much - there are some 'Viking Romanticism' on some of those sites (IMO the above picture looks like that). Usually you get the best information on 'Viking reenactment' sites (I'll post a list in the research topic soon) or from scientific research (not easy accessibly as most are in scandinavian languages)
• Odin himself did not have some chosen warrior-class, he did only support some of the strongest and legendary heroes (and those we know by their proper name) and he could sometimes be treacherous even to those, minding only his own designs. However all Viking warriors did worship Odin as the God of battle.

... and thanks for your keen interest in my ancestors

You are quite welcome.

I found some info on ulfsark from a scource which refers to scholarly works and norse poems.

Here is the link Ulfsark

Here is some info from it about ulfsark

The etymology of the term berserk is disputed. It may mean "bare-sark," as in "bare of shirt" and refer to the berserker's habit of going unarmored into battle. Ynglingasaga records this tradition, saying of the warriors of Óðinn that "they went without coats of mail, and acted like mad dogs and wolves" (Snorri Sturluson. Heimskringla: History of the Kings of Norway. trans. Lee M. Hollander. Austin: Univ.of Texas Press. 1964. p.10). Others have contended that the term should be read "bear-sark," and describes the animal-skin garb of ther berserker. Grettirs Saga calls King Harald's berserkers "Wolf-Skins," and in King Harald's Saga they are called ulfhedinn or "wolf-coats," a term which appears in Vatnsdæla Saga and Hrafnsmál (Hilda R. Ellis-Davidson,"Shape-Changing in the Old Norse Sagas," in Animals in Folklore. eds. J.R. Porter and W.M.S. Russell. Totowa NJ: Rowman and Littlefield. 1978. pp. 132-133), as well as in Grettirs Saga (Denton Fox and Hermann Palsson, trans. Grettir's Saga." Toronto: Univ.of Toronto Press. 1961. p. 3).

The berserker is closely associated in many respects with the god Óðinn. Adam of Bremen in describing the Allfather says, "Wodan --- id est furor" or "Wodan --- that means fury." The name Óðinn derives from the Old Norse odur or óðr. This is related to the German wut, "rage, fury," and to the Gothic wods, "possessed" (Georges Dumezil. The Destiny of the Warrior. Chicago, Univ. of Chicago Press. 1969. p. 36). This certainly brings to mind the madness associated with the berserker, and other Óðinnic qualities are seen to be possessed by the berserk. Ynglingasaga recounts that Óðinn could shape-shift into the form of a bird, fish, or wild animal (Snorri Sturluson, p. 10).

The berserker, too, was often said to change into bestial form, or at least to assume the ferocious qualities of the wolf or bear. Kveldulfr in Egils Saga Skallagrímsonar was spoken of as a shapechanger (Hermann Palsson and Paul Edwards, trans. Egil's Saga. NY: Penguin. 1976. p. 21), and Hrolf's Saga tells of the hero Bjarki, who takes on the shape of a bear in battle:

Men saw that a great bear went before King Hrolf's men, keeping always near the king. He slew more men with his forepaws than any five of the king's champions. Blades and weapons glanced off him, and he brought down both men and horses in King Hjorvard's forces, and everything which came in his path he crushed to death with his teeth, so that panic and terror swept through King Hjorvard's army..." (Gwyn Jones. Eirik the Red and Other Icelandic Sagas. NY: Oxford Univ. Press. 1961. p. 313).

Dumezil refers to this phenomenon as the hamingja ("spirit" or "soul") or fylgja ("spirit form") of the berserker, which may appear in animal form in dreams or in visions, as well as in reality (Georges Dumezil. Gods of the Ancient Northmen. Los Angeles: Univ.of California Press. 1973. p. 142).

The berserk was sometimes inherently possessed of this immunity, or performed spells to induce it, or even had special powers to blunt weapons by his gaze. Many tales say of their berserkers, "no weapon could bite them" or "iron could not bite into him." This immunity to weapons may also have been connected with the animal-skin garments worn by the berserk. As we saw above, while in animal form, "blades and weapons glanced off" Bodvar Bjarki. Similarly, Vatnsdæla Saga says that "those berserks who were called ulfhednar had wolf shirts for mail-coats" (Ellis-Davidson, "Shape Changing," p. 133). This concept of immunity may have evolved from the berserker's rage, during which the berserk might receive wounds, but due to his state of frenzy take no note of them until the madness passed from him. A warrior who continued fighting while bearing mortal wounds would surely have been a terrifying opponent.

It is likely that the berserk was actually a member of the cult of Óðinn. The practices of such a cult would have been a secret of the group's initiates, although the Byzantine emperor Constantine VII refers in his Book of Ceremonies to a "Gothic Dance" performed by members of his Varangian guard, who took part wearing animal skins and masks: this may have been connected with berserker rites (Hilda R. Ellis-Davidson. Pagan Scandinavia. NY: Frederick A. Praeger. 1967. p. 100).

Some images of ulfsark and berserker:

[Radspakr Wolfbane]

I'll say it again the lore debates belong in the Research Topic.
This topic is for working out the tech tree itself.

[The 10th Rider]

I think maybe the vikings should be similar to the goblins in some ways, start with cheap drone-ish units, can get pillage, and towards the end of the game they could get units like berserkers and stuff

[Gfire]

I think, in a sense, that kinda works.

[The 10th Rider]

Maybe another thing we could do is they could have a building where you can pay tribute to one of the gods to make powers related to that god recharge faster. It'd be like paying to make your powers recharge.

[Gfire]

Well, some sort of sacrifice thing might be cool to please the gods. Or in some factions you could do human sacrifices.

That could get really overpowered in late-game, though, when there are lots of resources. Perhaps, so as to keep it balanced, we could replace the signalfires with capturable Alters. I don't know how human sacrifices would play into that, though.

[Gfire]

Forgot to say this, but I think BFME1 Easterling anims will be best for Hoplites. I had a look at them the other day.

[empireruler]

Well, some sort of sacrifice thing might be cool to please the gods. Or in some factions you could do human sacrifices.

That could get really overpowered in late-game, though, when there are lots of resources. Perhaps, so as to keep it balanced, we could replace the signalfires with capturable Alters. I don't know how human sacrifices would play into that, though.

The Norse did not perform sacrifice. You could have the greeks with animal offerings, but not the Norse. The only faction that would have human sacrifice would be the Aztecs or the Mayans.

[Gfire]

Ummm... okay.

[The 10th Rider]

What if you could select from a resource building to put those resources towards tribute to the gods?

[Gfire]

Well, if the Norse didn't make sacrifices that doesn't make any sense. You're contradicting yourself here.

[Námo]

The vikings DID use sacrifices to the Gods. Sacrifices are called Blót in old Norse.

More info in the Viking Research Topic, in this post!

Perhaps a good point to continue the debate would be from this point:

Well, some sort of sacrifice thing might be cool to please the gods. ... Perhaps [...] we could replace the signalfires with capturable Alters.

Downscaling the height of the signal fire and removing the fire from the top would fit perfectly with the sort of Viking Altar called Hörgr. ... that would of course only work if all the factions could utilize such altars ...

Edited by Námo, 31 May 2009 - 11:13 PM.

[{IRS}Athos]

Altars! It's spelled with an "a"!!! You people pay no attention to spelling... Just because spell-check approves of it, doesn't mean it's the right homophone. Why, I ought to... *mumbles out of the topic*

...

Edited by ithilienranger732, 31 May 2009 - 11:08 PM.

[Námo]

Not a good idea to mumble when you are teaching correct spelling ... spelling corrected now, and thanks, Ithilien

[Gfire]

Ah... Firefox's spell check is so bad

The altars should be pretty generic, though. Then maybe when captured it could be customized with some faction-specific decorations.

Or different for different maps. In a map set in Scandinavia could have a Hörgr and on a Greece map, it might be a temple, or something. Then they can still be redecorated. This will be the most realistic, I think. Quite a bit of work, for not a lot, though, so probably not something included in an early version.

I don't know how this lines up with Greece's buildable temple idea, though.

Also, I think hunting lodge, or some time of hunting resource would make the most sense to gaining resources (along with a scavenger-type power, or something,) for the Norse. This would line up with animal sacrifices.

BTW, is it possible to "buy" spell power points? This could be a use of sacrifices.

Human sacrifices (for an Aztec faction, or something,) could be done kinda like the orc bloodthirsty power, but it could give power points (I don't think Bloodthirsty does.)

I have an idea for a Norse power, though; Raid (though I don't know how mythological this is, maybe better as a hero power or a fortress upgrade or something,) targeted units gain +%50 damage (or something,) and pillage for resources. It would be like war chant/rallying call.

Edited by Gfire, 01 June 2009 - 04:37 PM.

[empireruler]

Sorry, I got confused and thought you were talking about the Norse performing human sacrifices. As for resources it would make sense for the Norse to have a Hunting Lodge that could possibly train hunters (could passively gather resources, weak archers?, capture animals for sacrifice?), but the Norse could also have a mine as a replacement for the farm. The Hunting Lodge could have hunter's physically gathering animals roaming around the map, either for sacrifice or resources, depending on which you directed them to perform.

For a generic temple that would fit on either Greek or Norse, you could have a sacred grove, rock, or mound, which would have rune stones and statues surrounding it. This could provide a solution for Vikings capturing Greek temples or vice-versa

Edited by empireruler, 03 June 2009 - 08:12 PM.

[Gfire]

Personally I think it would be simpler to just return the animals for resources and then sacrifice resources.

A few map-specific temples/altars would be more realistic, though. Really brings a great historical feel to it, don't you think?

Generally, in Norse Mythology, the Dwarves were great miners (Such as in AoM where the Dwarves are better than humans at gathering gold, but worse at food and wood), so you could have a Dwarven mine summon power, that would connect to the tunnel network... It wouldn't be as good as the current Dwarven power, if you would have hunting lodges as standard resource structures.

[The 10th Rider]

We should lay down some concrete Tech Tree:

Some Building:
-Light Infantry
-Light Archers

Some other building (more expensive)
-Berserker w/axe (heavy infantry)
-Heavy spearmen

Stable:
-Light Horsemen
-Horse drawn Catapult

Forge:
-Upgrades
-(siege unit) Hammer wielding vikings w/fire bombs

Farm (resource building)

Watchtower

no walls

-more stuff

I think we should have a power like the summon eagle power:
Summon Huginn and Muninn

[Gfire]

I don't think berserkers are heavy

[Námo]

Just a short reply until I get time to write some more substantial info in the Viking Research Topic:

I think this is an extremely interesting idea IMO map-specific structures are far too little exploited:

A few map-specific temples/altars would be more realistic, though. Really brings a great historical feel to it, don't you think?

... otherwise no opinion on the debate concerning the resource system - for a start I think it would be wise just to keep the farms and concentrate on other aspects.

...

some notes on this post in highlighted text:

We should lay down some concrete Tech Tree:

Some Building:
-Light Infantry
-Light Archers
... why only light archers? there are substantial evidence from both archaeological finds as well as descriptions in the sagas, that the vikings did make extensive use of strong longbows (see note at the end of this post). So, there should definitely be some elite archer units, too!

Some other building (more expensive):
-Berserker w/axe (heavy infantry)
-Heavy spearmen
Berserker should be an infantry elite unit (Berserker used in the general meaning of the word as used in scandinavian languages - a strong and well trained full-time warrior, belonging to the hird (personal guard) of a King or Jarl - old norse have like 5 or 6 different, more specific terms for such warriors, more on this in a later post in the research topic) Berserkers did have helmets and armour, and used different sort of weapons including swords and axes.
Normal infantry did mostly use spears and axes, including the Dane-axe: a long-shafted axe wielded with both hands (and shifted from side to side to make defense more difficult) with the shield carried on the back of the warrior (some challenge for a gifted animator )


Stable:
-Light Horsemen
-Horse drawn Catapult
I think siege should be created in something else than a stable, especially since the vikings in general did not have specific buildings for horses - usually they were just kept in some part of a longhouse, or outside. Siege weapons were usually constructed on the site of the siege, thus there would hardly be need for pulling them by horses.

Forge:
-Upgrades
-(siege unit) Hammer wielding vikings w/fire bombs.
... well, anything else than "Hammer wielding vikings w/fire bombs" - although poorly documented, the vikings did use different kinds of siege weapons, like fire, siege ladders, battering rams, ballistae, mangonels and catapults (see Siege of Paris (885-886))

...

I think we should have a power like the summon eagle power: Summon Huginn and Muninn.
Huginn and Muninn are the Ravens of Odin, used by him for bringing news of what happens in Midgård (old norse: Middle-Earth) - they are used for spying, not attacking, so they would be more like the palantir power.

...

note on bows used by the vikings:

Remnants of bows dating as far back as the Stone Age have been found in Denmark, and bows made in the classic longbow shape and proportions, made of elm, have been found in Denmark and dated to the Bronze Age. One such longbow, found on the Danish island of Sjealand, has been dated to approximately 2800 BC. Another, found at Viborg on the central Jutland peninsula, has been dated to between 1,500 and 2,000 BC.

Prior to the Viking Age, Germanic tribes sometimes celebrated victories over foes by throwing their defeated enemies' captured weapons and gear into lakes or bogs as an offering to their gods. One such offering - a ship filled with weapons and sunk in a bog as a votive offering to the gods, dating from the third century AD - was discovered at Nydam, near the southern end of the Jutland peninsula. The Nydam ship provided a particularly rich archeological find from a history of archery standpoint, for it contained a total of thirty-six partial and complete bows. Most were classically proportioned longbows, some over six feet long, made of different woods, including yew. The limbs of a few of the longbows were tipped with sharpened iron nocks, apparently to allow the bow to be used as a close range stabbing weapon if an enemy closed with the archer.

Two bows found in Viking era burials provide archeological evidence of the types of bows actually used by Viking warriors. Both are large, classically shaped and proportioned longbows made of yew. One, found at Ballinderry in Ireland, was six feet one inch long. The other, found in a burial at Hedeby in southern Denmark, was six feet three and one-half inches long. This latter bow was sufficiently well preserved to allow estimation, from its size and proportions, that its draw weight was probably around one hundred pounds -- a powerful bow, indeed.