30 replies to this topic

[Gfire]

I was just wondering about strength of Cavalry. Which normal cavalry unit is strongest. As far as single units go (though horde sizes may vary) Rohirrim should probably be strongest.

By Normal, this means standard Horde Cavalry. No War Wagons or Wainriders, Mumakil, and whatnot. I'm talking about Rohirrim, Knights, Kataphrakts, Warg Riders, Rivendell Lancers, etc. There are quite a few and I think that the basic cavalry balancing is important.

There are a few factors that apply to the strength:

Health/Armor
Crush (damage and power, min speed and deceleration)
Normal Attack (damage and speed)
Speed

Horse Archers are a little different, and toggle weapon cavalry have an interesting strength that makes them more unique and versatile.

Here are my ideas:

As I see it, Heavily Armored Cavalry would be Kataphrakts and KodA. Gondor Knights are probably next. Rohirrim, Haradrim Lancers/Raiders (or whatever) and Rivendel lancers are probably lighter, and Warg/Wolf Riders little armor (only for the rider and not for the warg/wolf).

Speed is, for the most part, reversed of that. Rohirrim are the fastest, but Warg Riders are probably second. (NOTE: At the battle of the fords of isen, the Warg riders were sort of like an anti-cavalry, being low, and able to slash at the horse's sides) Haradrim, being light, are probably pretty quick, too.

One idea is that heavier armor makes it take longer to get up to speed, and longer to slow down, but not bring down the maximum speed by too much. This seems realistic to me.

Crushing power depends on weight. Heavier units will be slowed down less when crushing, and require less speed to crush. Other "strong" units, like Rohirrim and Rivendell Lancers could have higher damage (spears) but be slowed down more and require more speed to crush. Some units, like Haradrim, could just at crushing (especially if they use scimitars.)

[Spears and lances would increase crush damage, but heavier armor would increase crush power and decrease deceleration]

Rohirrim should be the most maneuverable, with the shortest turn time, and should be able to get up to speed pretty quickly. I think wargs should be able to get up to speed very quickly (fastest of any,) but not outrun Rohirrim in a slightly longer distance.

Heavily armored cavalry would take longer to get up to speed and longer to turn.

[KingElessar2384]

Word! I agree the Rohirrim should be the strongest cavalry unit as we see in lore and movies
Lore:
(1- Rohirrim descended from Eorl and the Eotheod(Northmen) and their skill with horses is the best (excluding Elves) in Middle Earth.
(2- Gandalf said that Gondorians were kind to horses but did not have skill in caring for them (meaning the rohirrim are true horse lords)
Movie:
(1- At Helm's Deep, the Riders charged right through the pikes without seriously getting maimed.
(2- Through strength is shown at Pelennor Fields; they scatter the orca and made a brave attempt on the mumakil.
That's all
Thx

[Taralom]

Crushing power depends on weight. Heavier units will be slowed down less when crushing, and require less speed to crush. Other "strong" units, like Rohirrim and Rivendell Lancers could have higher damage (spears) but be slowed down more and require more speed to crush. Some units, like Haradrim, could just at crushing (especially if they use scimitars.)

Not really. It depends on speed more. You need kinetic energy, which is mass times speed^2 (E = mv^2). Therefore, if you would get your horse to speed up faster, you would be able to crush more.
Also, the moment you crush, you experience inertia because of decelleration, driving you forward and sometimes even off your horse. That is because of your mass, making it difficult for you to wear heavier armour on horseback.

So, lighter cavalry > Heavy cavalry in crushing. Heavy cavalry was always meant to counter cavalry of others, to prevent them from flanking your own infantry.


Other than that, I support the idea of Rohirrim as strongest cav in the game.

[isledebananas]

I have to agree with Taralom's assessment. Heavily armored knights with armored mounts weren't that much there for crushing since there speed was reduced. They have more force since they are faster than unmounted units, but also have more weight than traditional cavalry. However, this isn't good for chasing down enemies and trampling them. Its more just to crash into an enemy force and endure a more protracted battle. Basically unlike other cavalry they are meant more for being in the thick of things rather than mobility.

So while Rohirrim and other light cavalry should be better at running and trampling; should be weaker as units. Your also right in that max speed, acceleration, and turn rate would be better for lighter cavalry. Much less armor, hp, and damage(melee attackers only) as compared to heavy cavalry though. Heavy cavalry would also be a lot slower overall. Horses with heavily armored passengers or armor themselves are usually quite slow and don't even run just kind of trot. They should do more damage when they trample I think, but trample fewer units since they don't have as much momentum. Though perhaps not accurate in a realistic sense just to add some differences and give some advantage to heavy cavalry beyond mere stats.

[Elvenlord]

If they were heavier, wouldn't that mean it would also take more to stop them?

[Gfire]

Right. They would take longer to get moving and possibly move more slowly but get slowed down less when crushing.

Edit: Woah, just realized I was the one who started this topic.

[njm1983]

Hmmm... good debate here. If we use extremes as an example... then Fully armored knights may only achieve a speed of say 15mph thats not really gonna obliterate a battalion - sure itll do some damage but Id expect the soldiers in the battalion to be able to withstand it or avoid getting mowed over rather easily.

Just imagine the the Rohirrim riding into the hordes of mordor at 1/4 the speed, but much more heavily armored. Id expect to see the the rohirrim break the initial lines but the further in they got theyd be slowed and swallowed by the hordes. Now the only advantage for them at that point would be being armored and ability to take punishment.

Now Lightly armored units would be coming at you at 25mph or more, once that hits im pretty sure a battalion will be trampled over since that has more of a chance to actually knock soldiers down, than the slower speed.

Ill support these ideas.

Gondor Knights- Heavy armor - slower speed, and acceleration. minimal trample damage
Rohirrim - Light armor - fast speed, and acceleration. great trample damage

Im sure its possible to get better turning from uits on horseback - instead of the start / stopping in the current 4.5. I believe the dwarven battlewagon makes wide turns perhaps something in its coding will enable us to use it in all cavalry type battalions.

[Elvenlord]

I think you're overestimating how much armor would slow down a horse. There's a reason heavy cavalry charges were so effective against infantry (until pikes, that is). Light might be able to hit harder at first, but they'll slow quickly and be killed off sooner rather than later.
For the record, rohirrim would be more like medium cavalry rather than light. Most wore at least maile, after all. Light would be virtually no armor.

[KingElessar2384]

It's funny, this topic was started about a year ago and a year later it starts to have more than one post
Also Rohirrim should have a little more resistance to pikes(not too much) but they could get injured but not exactly "killed" yet. This symbolizes Rohan's powerful horses;)
Thx

[yams in a can]

The basic comparison of Rohan's horses to regular horses is this: The horses of the Eorlings were the Elves of horses.

Honestly, all the Rohirrim, Theodon, Eomer, Eowyn, Gandalf, and any other Rohan hero should be faster than the Nazgul. The Nazgul's horses should take the least trample damage, because they way they were trained.

Heavy armored horses will still be stopped easier than faster moving horses. It will put more strain on the horse, so it will slow down much faster with the armor and people getting trampled. Armor, though, will always beat any quality, in BFME ;D. Rohirrim were especially good in BFME 2 patch 1.04 and ROTWK because of their incredible armor values. In ROTWK, they actually did less damage then Gondor knights, and people still skipped Gondor Knights all together...

Rohirrim should have the following----> Best trample, fastest speed, strongest damage, and strongest resistance to pikes. These guys had been exclusively Cavalry, so they would have the most experience in dealing damage from a horse. Their glorious horses would account for their trample, speed, and resistance. Rohirrim should also have an extra bonus against ALL other cavalry. This will show their dominance over the other cavalries....

[isledebananas]

Well heavy cavalry doing well against infantry of the past ages makes sense since basic infantry were mostly fodder. The heavy cavalry were some of the best equipped people on the field. Knights had special horses and lots of great armor not to mention superior training. That they could mow through groups of less powerful individuals with ease is no surprise. However, comparatively the basic infantry is different in Middle Earth. Other than basic Orcs, Elves, and Haradrim most basic infantry is quite well equipped or have natural defense against such things. Gondor, Rohan, Dwarves, Rhun, and Isengard all have pretty strong well armored basic infantry. Rohan would have the weakest infantry, but the rest are quite well trained or naturally strong. Not much speed or force was necessary in taking out scores of infantry in realistic situations, but in Middle Earth it seems quite necessary since when they go to war they come prepared.

Also, who in Middle Earth actually has heavy cavalry? Other than Knights of Dol Amroth, Morgul Knights, and Kataphrakts(perhaps Rohan Royal Guard?). I don't think the current age really has heavily clad cavalry in a more traditional realistic sense. Certainly the riders might have lots of armor but the horses are not so well clad. The above 3 seem like they could have heavily clad horses but its a sort of maybe deal. I think most cavalry in Middle Earth is medium cavalry with some armor on as Elvenlord said. Only perhaps Haradrim, Moria, and perhaps Isengard have light cavalry.

The difference should be that generally the overall best tramplers should be medium cavalry with Rohirrim or the Royal Guard being the best. By best I mean they can run over lots of units with ease without being slowed down much. The medium cavalry decided to be the weakest(whichever faction that is) should perhaps not be as good as some of the heavy cavalry. Heavy cavalry though not being able to trample as many and slowing down faster should do far more trample damage than any of the others. I imagine while the armor does help with keeping momentum and inertia that it makes it more difficult to safely keep footing and things of that nature because of the very fact that weight other than natural body weight is controlling the horse and riders movement forward. The more damage coming from the simple reason that being hit by so much steel and muscle should definitely leave a bigger dent.

[KingElessar2384]

I 100% agree with yams in a can;).
Rohirrim should have the best trample damage, strongest resistance to pikes, fastest speed, and high damage. Yes, armor did slow down the horse, as is why the Rohirrim wore mail instead of plate. Also the Knights of Dol Amroth should have a greater speed, resistance to pikes, and high trample damage (despite the heavy armor). Correct me if I'm but I think that Dol Amroth's horses are descended from elven horses, who are bred for speed. The KoDA trained their horses for speed using heavy armor. Meaning, KoDA had greater speed anyway, even with heavy armor.
Thx.
P.S: Don't forget about the Rohan Royal Guards, which are the elite and more buffed Rohirrim, meaning more of what the normal Rohirrim have. Also Theoden and Eomer should have greater speed, like Gandalf, because their horses (Snowmane and Firefoot), were Mearas, the most powerful and swiftest of the horses of Middle-Earth

Edited by KingElessar2384, 01 December 2010 - 12:45 PM.

[Taralom]

I think you're overestimating how much armor would slow down a horse. There's a reason heavy cavalry charges were so effective against infantry (until pikes, that is). Light might be able to hit harder at first, but they'll slow quickly and be killed off sooner rather than later.

I think the effectiveness of cavalry charges was not the armor, but rather the sheer size of a grown horse. I don't know if you've ever seen a full-grown horse used for police charges, but they are very imposing. The psychological effect is what does the initial damage, even before the actual charge, wavering the receiving party. The effect of the initial blast from the incoming horses is increased because of that effect and therefore attained the effectiveness of the cavalry charges.

To come back upon the armor. Armor doesn't slow the horse down initially, but the main problem that the horse has is that it has to carry more weight with the same speed. Armor tires the horse down. A good way to tackle this problem is not moving at great speed. This is why heavy cavalry is slower in games, since few have systems such as RTW that make soldiers tired.

Well heavy cavalry doing well against infantry of the past ages makes sense since basic infantry were mostly fodder.

Just in Medieval times. I definately would not like to fight hoplites or the roman legions, both of whom were very effective against cavalry

[Gfire]

Right... Heavy armor wouldn't allow you to move as fast or speed up as quickly but you would also take longer to slow down. So like, perhaps the speed could be less than Rohirrim, but as far as the percent slowed down from crushing, that would probably be lower.

I think KoDA should be able to crush the most units before becoming too slow to crush, as they have speed and weight. Rohirrim might still deal more crush damage, though, whereas Gondor Knights have swords and can't deal nearly as much damage when crushing but are fairly armored so they might not slow down too much when crushing either, but of course have less maximum speed anyway.

[Taralom]

Hey, I am just discussing Realism
Feel free to implement something else for gameplay issues.

[Gfire]

Yeah, I'm talking about realism. If it was gameplay we were worried about we should remove crushing altogether because all meta impact and similar abilities cause gameplay issues. But most players don't care and just want to see their cavalry mowing over all the other units.

[Elvenlord]

I think the effectiveness of cavalry charges was not the armor, but rather the sheer size of a grown horse. I don't know if you've ever seen a full-grown horse used for police charges, but they are very imposing. The psychological effect is what does the initial damage, even before the actual charge, wavering the receiving party. The effect of the initial blast from the incoming horses is increased because of that effect and therefore attained the effectiveness of the cavalry charges.

To come back upon the armor. Armor doesn't slow the horse down initially, but the main problem that the horse has is that it has to carry more weight with the same speed. Armor tires the horse down. A good way to tackle this problem is not moving at great speed. This is why heavy cavalry is slower in games, since few have systems such as RTW that make soldiers tired.

That's part of heavy cavalry. Knights and other heavy cavalry would use larger horses than light cavalry. Light would not use the larger horses you're describing. Add on the armor, and heavy cavalry were much better suited for charges.

[Gfire]

But spears and lances would deal more crush damage, no?

[Taralom]

Light would not use the larger horses you're describing.

Why, if I may ask?

[Elvenlord]

Light would not use the larger horses you're describing.

Why, if I may ask?

Speed and agility primarily. Larger horses would also take more effort to take care of, so, as a rule of thumb, people generally used the smallest horse that was able to do the job. From what I've seen, the largest horses were generally not actually used in war, instead they were used for farms and to pull carriages about. Medium-sized horses were what knights used(Though this is disputed, some say large horses, some say medium. Might have been both), and the smaller horses were for light cavalry. Once the knight and heavy armor started to decline, people started using smaller horses again.