37 replies to this topic

[Nazgûl]

After years of debate, discussions, ideas, planning and desperate brainstorming from all over, Sûl and I have finally decided upon the future of the Ring Hero system in SEE... Here are the basic facts, without going into too much detail!

0) Gollum: the neutral Ring Keeper mode (having the Ring) and the recruitable Ring Stealer mode (looking for the Ring), remains! =)

1) Galadriel will be removed, as ring hero for good factions! This was always my plan, but left for another beta than 4.5... That's why we currently have two Galadriels in game as a temporary setup! =p

2) We will NOT have ANY ring heroes for any good faction what so ever! Simply cause it's NOT right to have any one possible from the good factions to wield The One Ring (except Gandalf, if he turned evil, which we wouldn't do)! It's agaist the fundamental lore! (If we can't find enough time for this beta, we'll use Tom Bombadil as a new temporary solution!)

3) Frodo and Sam will be removed from Lothlórien faction, and made into "ring heroes" for all good factions (and Pippin/Merry will be moved to Gondor/Rohan)! The idea is that when you gain the Ring, you'd gain access to Frodo & Sam, with Sam most likely as a slave unit of Frodo, protecting him, and from here on, you'd need to pass several waypoints on the map, before exiting off screen and start a timer. If the evil factions have not defeated good before timer runs out, it would mean Frodo have reached Mount Doom and destroyed the Ring. This might possible mean instant defeat OR having a tremendeous bonus for all good against evil, and possibly also having evil units in fear... More details later in production.

4) For EVIL faction however, we aim for loads of possibilities that involve the Spell Book and ultimately having the faction's most powerful unit become the weilder of the Ring. This is all in sync with Sûl's interpretation of what The One Ring truly is - the incarnation of the true powers of Sauron, and as such, the Ring (which would be Sauron in "contained" form) would make use of a powerful weilder like these (all MAIAR) units would be:

- Mordor obviously gets Sauron's humanoid form as the ultimate goal of the Ring itself! It wants to be found and brought to its master's domains, so that Sauron can gain his humanoid form and have all his powers restored...

- Isengard will have a terribly upgraded Saruman with unbeleivable powers, doing Sauron's wishes...

- Moria would naturally summon the Balrog from the depths of Moria, as one of Sauron's most powerful "tools" ever imaginable...

- Rhûn/Harad would have Alatar, and if we split this faction in two: Alatar for Rhûn and Pallando for Harad (See below from Encyclopedia of Arda). First idea was a Dragon, but I'd like to keep dragons low in numbers in our version of Middle Earth... We still have Drogoth for Moria faction, which can't be scrapped really since it's such a good model and fits the fotress middle monument theme. And not to be forgotten, the somewhat "lore hostile" summon of Smaug. So we should definitely not add more than absolutely needed in terms of Dragons =p

Alatar: Alatar was one of the original three Wizards selected by the Valar for the journey from Valinor to Middle-earth (the other two being Curumo and Olórin - Saruman and Gandalf). When these three had been chosen, Yavanna selected Aiwendil (later called Radagast) to join them, and Alatar selected his friend Pallando to travel with him into the Outer Lands. Alatar and Pallando arrived in Middle-earth dressed in sea-blue. For this reason, they were together given the name Ithryn Luin, the Blue Wizards. With Saruman, they journeyed into the far east of Middle-earth, but while Saruman returned to the west, Alatar and Pallando did not. Of their fate, we know almost nothing.

Pallando: A Maia of the people of Oromë and a friend to Alatar, Pallando was selected by the Valar as the last of the five beings to be sent eastward across the Great Sea to become Wizards. Alatar and Pallando were together known as the Ithryn Luin, the Blue Wizards. They wandered far from the northwestern shores of Middle-earth, exploring the distant eastern lands. Their fate is never told, but it seems that, like Saruman, they fell into darkness, and Tolkien hints that they were responsible for the founding of strange cults in distant lands.

This would make the mod very true to the movies and the lore, and it would extend gameplay in the best possible way. I can't guarantee we can pull it off, but we will surely try our best! More details later on. We have far too many things to attend to before we get here, so it might not be until Beta 4.8.

Edited by Nazgûl, 05 November 2009 - 01:18 AM.

[RalphDamiani]

This is an excellent system if it can be worked out, to say the least!

[RalphDamiani]

Now for minor lore nitpicks, if you don't mind, although everything sounds good enough as is.

I think Saruman would be powerful enough to supplant Sauron, if he ever acquired the Ring. Those mighty among the Eldar and the Maiar would not be corrupted in the same fashion the king of Men were. They would probably become Lords of the Rings on their own, as Sauron's malice would corrupt and torment their souls, perhaps with greed and lust of power, but not enough to enslave them to his will. Both Galadriel and Gandalf allude to this, when they are offered the Ring.

In the case of Alatar and Pallando, that is disputable, for they could have been lost in many ways before that. They could be evil spirits, dark sorcerers (like the Mouth of Sauron, whose origin we never learned), Necromancers or even treacherous allies like Saruman, although Tolkien expressed they probably failed in different ways. Most likely they would challenge the Dark Lord themselves.

The Balrog is one that irks me the most, I don't see it wielding the One Ring or having a particular interest to rule over others. It seems to me they are spirits of destruction and hatred, weapons of war devoid of this sort of ambition. My suggestion would be a similar system in which once goblins acquire the ring, they need to travel the map in order to deliver it to Sauron, which then could arrive himself. Keeping the Balrog strictly as a devastating spell seems more in line with the lore.

But either way works just great!

Edited by RalphDamiani, 05 November 2009 - 01:40 AM.

[Nazgûl]

Hehe yeah and too much micro management. You also need to read the idea more closely... I didn't say you have to kill Frodo/Sam before they leave the map, you have to defeat the good faction before the timer runs out. This timer could be any value... like 30 mins... 60 mins... We'll balance that, and you'll have enough time to really make an effort to win. Should the timer run out, we'll try to have some sort of prolongued end for the evil faction, by putting all units in fear mode and making them easy targets, but still having to destroy them before game ends. Remember though that it's all about the Ring and should you obtain it, that means you should be "half way" to victory. Gollum can still be used to steal the Ring back though, and also... like I said - Frodo/Sam would have to make certain waypoints on map before leaving, which makes them possible targets.

This is complicated enough and if we pull it off, it will be the closest thing to the movies ever possible. I think many fans would love it, but off course not all of them/you. But it doesn't matter what we do, as there will always be another opinion

I like the idea of us knowing very little of Alatar and Pallando, and for this useage, they fit perfectly, because of that...

About the Balrog... it all have to do with them all being Maiar, and the fact that ultimately, they'd still be servants of Sauron, so basically HE would be wielding THEM, through his ring of power, rather than them wielding the Ring. But I bet Sûl can explain this better, as it's his interpretaion of the lore - I just happen to share it completely

[yams in a can]

Firstly, I am pretty sure, in the lore, that for a person to ever wield the ring, only applying to Maia, they would have to defeat Sauron, and the only way to do that is to destroy the ring, so... ??? I still like Saruman for the idea, and I think it should be implemented. Remember, Saruman would not work for Sauron with Sauron's ring, so he would not be a ring hero if he was still serving Sauron.

I love how you came up with the Gollum idea, no understanding to why you ever thought about getting rid of him. For the balrog, it could be used as an offering, summoning him and Smaug, as they could not use it. It would make much sense for them to serve the goblins due to them using the ring as an offering. Maybe a blarog riding Smaug . The balrogs did ride dragons! They just rode dragons without wings, and those drragons were HUGE, as all were.

[Nazgûl]

Eeer? I never ever said I was getting rid of Gollum? =p

[khamulrulz]

love it. for saruman, he would replace the fortress saruman, right? i hope the same is done for alatar, because i want the blue wizards as regular heroes.

imagine two balrogs for moria at the same time: one with the ring and one as a summon

i hope the ring heroes get really awesome powers

[Archon]

I think once the Ring is brought back to the fortress, "normal" Saruman will be uber-buffed and turned into "Ring-Hero" Saruman.

And also, I'm fairly certain the Balrog will be removed as a summons.

[khamulrulz]

what i meant by "replacing" saruman was that when you get the ring, the fortress saruman would change into the ring hero - that way there aren't two sarumans running around like the current situation with galadriel.

Edited by khamulrulz, 05 November 2009 - 01:50 PM.

[Arthadan]

I agree about Sauron and Saruman as Ring heroes, even the balrog fits the bill.

But for Alatar and Pallando, I'm not so sure. One of them would be OK, but since Tolkien pointed out several posibilities for them (mainly corrupted as Saruman or killed fighting the Shadow), having the two of them corrupted is too much. Anyway, unlike Saruman, Sauron and the Balrog, they were not in northwestern Middle-earth and were not looking for the One; so having them appearing from the other side of the world just because some guy million of kilometres away find the One is kind of strange. Using common sense and following the lore, if any warrior of harad or Rhûn in a Mordor army would have found the One, a Nazgûl on fell beast would have been sent to pick it and deliver it to Sauron (or Sauron himself would have gone to take it himself).

It could work like this: once the Harad or Rhûn faction has the One, they have access to a new hero (a nazgûl riding a horse rather than a fellbeast for balancing issues). Then, same as Frodo & Sam (he has to exit the map with the One passing by several waypoints and when it's done a counter would begin and when it expires, good factions would have serious drawbacks OR Sauron can be recruited cheaper and/or in less time than Mordor faction).

About the system for the good factions, it sounds pretty good but also pretty complicated to do. Good luck with it!

[Nazgûl]

lol, you still haven't read it thoroughly...

[Námo]

This is all in sync with Sûl's interpretation of what The One Ring truly is - the incarnation of the true powers of Sauron ...

[Prince of the Dark Forest]

Perhaps you could give the normal Galadriel some of the Ring Hero Galadreil's powers so they don't go to waste...

[Nazgûl]

love it. for saruman, he would replace the fortress saruman, right? i hope the same is done for alatar, because i want the blue wizards as regular heroes.
imagine two balrogs for moria at the same time: one with the ring and one as a summon
i hope the ring heroes get really awesome powers

- Saruman is Saruman, and there is only ONE of him. Thus - we won't have two, no! The regular Saruman would BECOME (hence the description in my post as "upgraded") the Ring Hero, doing Sauron's biddings - again, according to Sûl's (and my) interpretation of what the Ring really is.
- There won't be two Balrogs either. The existing Balrog would only be summonable by a "science" that you gain in Moria faction when obtaining the Ring. He's already almost a too powerful unit to have as regular resummonable power... and since the Balrogs were in fact Maiar too (like Saruman, Gandalf, Alatar, Pallando and Radagast), we think the Balrog in Moria would defenitely somehow be able to do Sauron's biddings, if it would get a hold of the Ring. OR, we keep the Balrog like now, but just like in Saruman's case - we make it uber strong if the Ring is obtained...
- The idea is that all ring heroes of the evil factions would be awefully strong indeed, by channeling the power that Sauron put in the Ring... and that's why Good must find it, and destroy it

I agree about Sauron and Saruman as Ring heroes, even the balrog fits the bill. But for Alatar and Pallando, I'm not so sure. One of them would be OK, but since Tolkien pointed out several posibilities for them...

That's why I like the idea of using them for this purpose. It doesn't have to be perfect (it can't be). But I think this is good enough =)

[khamulrulz]

i like it. i just think that if saruman/alatar/balrog got their hands on the ring, they wouldn't be taking orders from sauron, but would become the new "lord of the rings". lol does the ring fit on teh balrog's hand?

[Sûlherokhh]

The ring can change size. It was even shown in the movie how it shrank to fit isildur.

[Nazgûl]

Yeah, I assume it would take any form to fit any bearer... that it chooses

[Sûlherokhh]

Saruman should become the 'multi-coloured'. It was said in the books that when Gandalf visited the now evil Saruman, he had changed the simple white garment into something whitish that shimmered in the colours of the rainbow.
Something like GaladrielTheRingHero, just not as extreme. What do you think?