225 replies to this topic

[Ash]

Ah, but you don't necessarily punish him for doing it. You certainly don't punish him forever for doing it. You might punish him with that punch in the face but then you get over it and continue being brothers and get along harmoniously. God's a twat like that - you step out of line once and that's it - you're fucked for the rest of eternity. So, that is not a fair comparison.

[Archon]

Ah, but you don't necessarily punish him for doing it. You certainly don't punish him forever for doing it. You might punish him with that punch in the face but then you get over it and continue being brothers and get along harmoniously.

And if God does want to forgive someone, but they won't accept it?

You see, God offers forgiveness to everyone, and gives you the choice to accept it. If not, it's not God's fault if you don't.

[Ash]

There's no prerequisite of acceptance on forgiveness. Not that he's ever offered me the chance. Stop putting words in your own God's mouth.

[Allathar]

Archon, you still haven't answered my question. What about the Bhagavad Ghita, the dinosaurs and the Neanderthals?

Also, what makes you believe in God, besides the fact that it's written in the Bible that he exists?

[Puppeteer]

Nor have you defined sin.

I'm abhorred by the fact that he's offering forgiveness! I'm gay, but I don't need to apologise and be absolved from this heinous crime. I don't agree with his morality/his belief that he should dictate what's good and evil.
And how dare you compare homosexuality to vandalism. This is NOT the same, and you are seriously warped if you see ANY similarity.

[Archon]

Guys, I'm going to leave this argument, not because I have nothing to say, but because I can't convince you and you can't convince me either. All we're apparently going to accomplish is a flamewar.
But regardless of your opinions, I do sincerely respect both of you and what you're saying, Ash and Puppeteer and Allathar. I don't hate you and I won't call you names and condemn you.
I hope we can agree to disagree.

[Bart]

It's near impossible to get convert believers into atheists. They are brainwashed from birth to be that, which is the only reason they are. I was raised without religion involved (meaning not religious and not specifically atheist either) and I'm an atheist because it's the only logical, natural way to think.

It's like santa claus. If at some point parents would stop telling their children that he does not exist, he would soon become as "real" as God (if we ignore the fact that we modern communication these days and that next generations could look him up on Wikipedia ). It's ridiculous, but it's what you've known forever and if anybody tries to convince you otherwise, some kind of primal instinct denial kicks in.

[Ash]

Yeah, it's typical tho. Beats a hasty retreat after he realises he's pissed a bunch of people off. When will religious gay-bashers get the hint that their views are just as offensive to the rest of us as our general dislike of God and bigotry are to them?

[Archon]

Nah, I'd just rather not piss people off more than I already have.

[Pasidon]

Ye poor soul. Rendered of divine love for taunting others with opinions.

[Vortigern]

Now that we're done arguing, can we all just say what it was that turned us off to religion? For me, it was the random bollocks that the Bible throws up every now and then, such as this gem:

Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material.

Did you know that my coat is a sin?

[Phil]

The bible is a very interesting document that shows the peoples' view on the world at the time they wrote it. There are some pretty good concepts in it, especially in the New Testament. And of course a lot of bollocks, measured by today's standards.

It's a historical document of a certain depth and huge impact, like all the other big religious texts. That doesn't make it any more or less "true" than the rest though. Really, it's a mixture of story book, historical narrative and ideological theory.

[Ash]

I've never been religious, my folks are also irreligious and I was never baptised and taught not to believe everything I read, and to question everything. I was not taught to be an atheist - far from it. I was always encouraged to learn about different beliefs and to work it out for myself. I was withdrawn from RE at Y10-11, because I of my own volition thought that it would be a profitless waste of my time that could be spent doing more productive stuff. Every teacher tried to dissuade me. If I'm unlucky enough to ever have children, I'll do the same thing for them in a heartbeat unless they specifically want to be included in RE class for whatever reason.

But as for why I originally renounced God and all the scriptured falsehoods that surround him? Basically I thought of Epicurus' questions before I even knew who Epicurus was, and I questioned his lack of intervention in some of mankind's darkest hours (I'm not just talking of the Holocaust here, though that was one of them - wars in general qualify) being a sign of his nonexistence. Also I didn't approve of God's intolerance, unjustness and general megalomania. The double standards amaze me too - why create something you abhor? Why give people the option of becoming something you abhor, if you're their creator? Think of a programmer. He creates a program, but it has a memory leak. That programmer won't be satisfied until that memory leak is fixed. If I were to create a race of beings from scratch, I'd work out all the bugs. I'd remove the possibility of cancer, murderous instinct, etc. I wouldn't lay down rules saying they couldn't commit murder or adultery or such, I'd just remove the very possibility that they could even conceive of such acts. By my logical conclusion when I thought of this analogy, God is one of three things: nonexistent, imperfect and ineffectual, or lazy. All three of which give him no more right to my reverence or respect than Gordon Brown.

Although before any of that I will confess that the first thing that led me to resistance against having any form of spirituality was the attitude of the vast majority of religious followers that I have met.

My understanding is that the greatest enemy of God is a free and open mind.

I firmly agree with DLOTS - Religion and the texts and beliefs upon which they operate were the way of explaining the world as best they could, given the lack of technology or adequate scientific rigour. As more has become understood, the robustness of religious theory has eroded considerably, yet the dogmatic still cling to their beliefs, essentially plugging their ears and saying 'la la la I'm not listening' when a scientist comes over and shoots down their theory in flames with evidence.

[duke_Qa]

Did you know that my coat is a sin?

Lawl, thats a nice one.

All in all, I don't think anyone in here gets angry because someone posted something on the internet. I personally found Archon's replies here quite moderate and well thought out, so I would actually thank him for dropping by.

But all in all, religion is there for the big questions in life, and Science and Atheism generally does not give you those answers. Psychologists and therapists of different kinds and whatnot are probably the closest thing we can get to a modern secular "priest". But they are hard to educate in large masses, and thus a certain religious base can be handy for the base psychological needs among people.


Anyway, what turned me off Religion. I guess it was when I asked some person, probably my mother, about this God fellow when I was like 4-7 years old. She told me "If you believe in him, he exists, if you do not, he doesn't". then I thought to myself: "so the [local priest] has to believe in God for him to exists, but if he stopped believing he would have wasted his entire education and lifestyle? sounds pretty fickle". So I got a "seed of doubt" back then, and as I progressively grew older and realized how the world worked, things got more and more apparent to me that there are no supernatural entities messing with our lives.

[Pasidon]

Like I say, God is like a prarie storm. Open your eyes to look at it, then you'll go blind.

Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material.

Did you know that my coat is a sin?

COAT!? Burn that blasphemy belt!

[Mathijs]

And this link somehow proves that I'm not a good person? I fail to understand that logic, Matias.

It proves nothing but the fact that you're a moron.

[Beowulf]

Matias, you're an even bigger moron for actually believing that a Christian is a moron just for a system of belief.

In any case, this is quite relevant: http://www.mentallyi...article742.html

[Pasidon]

"Well he did," she replied. "He died to save you, and me, and everyone else here."

"Well that's certainly grand news," I stated.

That's true. It is great news.

[Allathar]

But all in all, religion is there for the big questions in life, and Science and Atheism generally does not give you those answers.

Science can't give you an answer because there is none. Let's face it, we're a cosmic fart that shouldn't have existed in the first place. Yet we do. So yeah. Read your Nietzche.

Anyway, what turned me off religion was probably an open mind. I was raised quasi-religious, but things got less and less as time went.

[Archon]

It proves nothing but the fact that you're a moron.

Seriously, how petty can this get, Matias?