37 replies to this topic

[khamulrulz]

I think that since all other factions have "civilian" spam/base defence units that are made from resource buildings, the elves should be no different. I never liked hobbits being used as the cannon fodder of the elven faction, because hobbits rarely fought, and should just be kept as a tier 2 summon for the gondor faction (see spellbook thread), as well as merry for rohan, pippin for gondor, and frodo and sam as the good ringbearers.

in the intro of the game, and several cutscenes of the campaign, you see elven civilians running around. i think that these could be given battle anims, and would just attack with their bare hands, being the weakest spam unit, but being able to heal. because the elven farm is now the elven resource building, it would make sense to have elven gardeners come in, and hobbits taken completely out of the elven faction.

Edited by khamulrulz, 06 December 2009 - 02:58 AM.

[Lord Fox]

i do agree with you that the elves shouldnt be using hobbits as spam units and that they should have their own ppl be spam ( as you suggested the gardeners).
Although i dont think the hobbits should just turn into a summon, after all they have their own hobbit house homes made and implaced into the game already.
If this new spam unit would be but into effect i think the name should be changed from gardeners to somthing more warlike sounding. They should atleast be given a weapon, i mean who sends troops to battle unarmed? if rohan are able to arm their ppl quickly then the elves should get some ability to atleast be upgradeable to weapons and armor. just my 2 cent =P

[Gfire]

"Elven Caretakers" that's what I added to the game at some point.

There's a nice model of Elven Worker that I used. Not sure if it has all the animations and things it needs, though. It had a hammer. It was like the porter except without the cart. You'd have to rig up more versions though, probably, like the Rohan Peasants. It had proper anims for repairing buildings, I think. Very similar to the peasant.

It never looked right to have units coming out of the Mallorn tree, though. There's no real exit point. Unless you could make them walk down the ramp, or something.

[khamulrulz]

hmm... the thing is that although the hobbit house is in the game, it doesn't have build-up anims or level-up differences, so it wouldn't be that much of a loss to be honest.

and yeah the gardeners/whatever-you-want-to-call-them should probably get daggers. nothing too much though - they should still be weak even for a spam unit.

[Gfire]

Short swords, kinda like sting was, would be cool for them. They'd pull them out while attacking, but have hammers or no weapon otherwise. Much like the villagers in AoE. They'd walk around without tools, and have baskets and knives come out of nowhere when you gave them orders. If they were to hunt deer, a bow would appear in their hands. Fighting they used daggers, and building they used hammers. It could be pretty much like that.

I don't think they should be weak even for a spam unit. I think they'd be stronger than an undrafted peasant. They'd probably have worse armor than a drafted peasant, but probably better attack. Stronger than snagas, surely.

[Lord Fox]

stronger then a vicious orc or a drafted peasant who has a sword and a shield? no i would think that with a dagger, as kham stated, a gardener should still be weak even for a spam unit. Probably really weak since they probably only were cloth or leather clothing.

[Gfire]

A vicious orc? I thought they were unarmored orc slaves with crude axes.

Elves are immortal, so even those who are gardeners at the moment would have learned a lot of skills, including fighting, quite well, over time. And elves and naturally way more skilled than men or orcs.

Making them weaker doesn't make sense to me.

[Lord Fox]

lol and axe should still beat daggers, orcs a supposely immortal to? and the gardeners are probably unarmored to. =D you could say elves learn lots of skills but you can only infer that they learn how to fight (well). an elf could just have spent alot of their time learning about plants and healing and such, farming and basic things.
I really like khams idea of healing and that should balance out with their weakness.

[Gfire]

It doesn't matter, elves are stronger than orcs. It's shown very clearly in the films. Afaik, there's no lore to back up the idea of immortal orcs.

I don't think an orc axe beats sting.

I just don't see how any elf could be weaker than an orc snaga.

IIRC, all the elven units heal automatically. This would be another point that makes the gardeners stronger than orcs and men.

[khamulrulz]

honestly, i don't see these guys hunting or repairing buildings (only builders repair buildings), but this argument about which spam unit is better is completely pointless. the whole point of these units is that they are cheap and expendable, and pretty much suck.

about snagas, they are basically the scum of middle-earth, and would not be vicious or immortal.

since the elven gardeners had no combat training, they would have the worst attacks, and are unarmored (similar stats to undrafted peasants), but their knowledge in healing lore enables them to auto-heal just like other elven units.

[Námo]

... there's no lore to back up the idea of immortal orcs.

Correct. Orcs are men 'corrupted' by Morgoth, so Orcs are mortal like Men.

Edited by Námo, 02 December 2009 - 01:47 PM.

[khamulrulz]

i'm not sure if it was confirmed that it was men or elves that morgoth corrupted, but orcs were definitely mortal.
i think it's nice now that if the gardeners get implemented, then all the spam units will be realistic (poorly-trained "citizens" rather than warriors) and from their respective factions (i.e. no more hobbits for the elves)

Edited by khamulrulz, 02 December 2009 - 09:44 AM.

[Námo]

i'm not sure if it was confirmed that it was men or elves that morgoth corrupted ...

It was indeed ...

... but Tolkien did not take a final decision on the question of the origin of Orcs before 1959-60; in The Silmarillion as published we still find the assumption, that Orcs might be corrupted Elves, but Tolkien has in some later writings very clearly rejected this as an impossible idea.

The lore I refer to is the essay Origin of Orcs which exist as a sort of appendix to a major work entitled Essekenta Eldarinwa or Quendi and Eldar, which Christopher Tolkien describes thus: "with the appendices Quendi and Eldar runs to nearly fifty closely typed pages, and being a highly finished and lucid work is of the utmost interest".

The essay Origin of Orcs can be found in History of Middle-earth Vol. X: Myths transformed, section X - I shall very likely quote from this later, but that will be in an appropriate topic.

[khamulrulz]

haha lol i am awed my your unrivaled lore mastery.
back on topic though... i hope elven gardeners are taken into consideration by the team, because hobbits just don't fit.

[Arthadan]

... there's no lore to back up the idea of immortal orcs.

Correct. Orcs are men 'corrupted' by Morgoth, so orcs are mortal like men.

You're forgetting about Boldogs, my friend

[Námo]

/off-topic (*sigh*), but a nice remark deserves a nice reply.

Morgoth had many servants, the oldest and most potent of whom were immortal, belonging in their beginning to the Maiar; and these evil spirits like their Master could take on visible form. Those whose business it was to direct the Orcs often took Orkish shapes, though they were greater and more terrible.⁴ Thus it was that the histories speak of Great Orcs or Orc-captains who were not slain, and who reappeared in battle through years far longer than the span of the lives of Men.*

⁴ ... 'But always among them [Orcs] (as special servants and spies of Melkor, and as leaders) there must have been numerous corrupted minor spirits who assumed similar bodily shapes' ...

* [footnote to the text] Boldog, for instance, is a name that occurs many times in the tales of the War. But it is possible that Boldog was not a personal name, and either a title, or else the name of a kind of creature: the Orc-formed Maiar, only less formidable than the Balrogs.

So Boldogs are not Orcs, but Spirits taking the shape of Orcs ...

... and please don't ask me now about the Bullfrog

Edited by Námo, 02 December 2009 - 02:51 PM.

[Arthadan]

Back on topic, in "Laws and Customs among the Eldar", Tolkien states that Elven women and men were more similar (regarding strength and nimbleness) than Men. And both did get some weapon training. So, we can have males and females and they should be the best spam units. Regarding the name, I proppose "elven militia" (since they're not just gardeners, they do have some military training).

And now, going on with the off topic...

What about the Bullfrogs then?

No, seriously. Boldogs could beget with normal Orcs (as Melian did beget with Thingol), producing Maiar-blooded Orcs. It's unclear if they would be mortal or not.

Edited by Arthadan, 02 December 2009 - 02:27 PM.

[Lord Fox]

Well my bad,
im not well informed on the LOTR world and i just try to pick up what i know off lik wikipedia and such. i just thought i read somewhere that some orcs lived like really long. o well srry.
hehe i would still shizt in my pants if i saw an orc coming at me, i dont really care what type of orc it is, gotta run to get the fudge away XD

so not to be off topic or anything but... does anyone recommend and good sites where i could learn more about lotr and actully get my facts right next time XD?

[Gfire]

If you really want to learn the lore, read the books. That's the closest you can get.

tolkiengateway.net seems to be pretty accurate for the most part, focusing on the books and not the films, and not assuming anything. It is a wiki, though, so there are bound to be flaws. And of course, it's fairly incomplete, not including all the information from the books. But it's what I use mostly for looking stuff up. It's pretty reliable for basic stuff.

[Arveanor]

what about an archer based peasant? elven hunters anyone? maybe something similar to the defenders of lothlorien as I seem to recall there were plenty of them hiding out high in the mallorn trees who were hardly trained warriors, but I may be messing that up...

but it would still make some sense to have ranged peasants, and it would provide something unique for the elves, which I've seen naz speak of as a good thing on many occasions.

Theres my two cents, Namo, be sure to pick it apart as you see fit