37 replies to this topic

[khamulrulz]

i do think that the elves have enough ranged units though, which is why i would go with a melee spam unit.

[isledebananas]

It did seem that all the Elves we saw in Lorien, sans Galadriel and Celeborn, possessed bows but I don't think those were just regular citizens. Even though I wouldn't put it past most Elves to possess some sort of wartime armament to be used when necessary. However, to me it seems more likely they all have daggers or short swords like Sting hidden on their persons just in case. I don't think it would be weird for them to be like unarmored warriors with similar blades too. Frankly I think the spam of the Elves should be limited. While a few guys grab the basic weapons and go to battle to distract the enemy some stay behind to get fully geared up which makes sense to me seeing as how they have been dealing with attacks for thousands of years they would have some plan in place.

[khamulrulz]

yeah. spam units of all factions should be limited, because when you're playing as lorien the whole point is to build the elite archer units, not gardeners. i think nazgul or sul or another guy high up in the dev team hierarchy proposed that there should only be one spam unit per farm/other spam building, and they are just creeps around the building providing base defence.

edit: this would make more sense, because you have the workers at a resource building protecting the resources they are getting (miners protect the mines, gardeners protect elven farms, etc)

Edited by khamulrulz, 06 January 2010 - 06:57 AM.

[isledebananas]

Hmm I don't know if its possible to make each resource building produce one spam horde. That would also be troublesome since if you needed more in a certain area you would have to wait for the ones from farther away resource structures to make it there which might make there point useless since they are supposed to be quick bodies you can throw out there. Also each resource structure possessing a slave horde would cause problems if there was long ranged siege not to mention potential lag.

I think a cap on the max you can have at one time is the best way to go. Also that cap maybe should be changed depending on the faction. For Elves since their numbers movie/lore wise was less during this time the cap number would be smaller than say Rohan who should be able to get lots of peasants out.

Furthermore I think all resource structures should have a reclaim unit function for the spam units. Similar to how you can send in orcs to a slaughterhouse to make it gain resources. This would be in addition to the fact that the amount of spam hordes affect the resource per turn of structures. If your workers are out fighting they aren't producing resources makes sense to me. The amount they effect the resource would also change depending on the faction. For example the percent effect of one Elven spam horde would be greater than a single Rohan spam horde, but since Rohan's max is greater if they had their spam at the cap the overall percent effect would be greater for Rohan than Elves.

[khamulrulz]

how about this: when a farm or other main resource building comes under attack, then it stops producing resources, and a battalion of the spam unit comes out. it makes sense. if enemies are close, the peasants in a farm (or snagas in a furnace) would stop their work and attack those enemies.

[isledebananas]

I think the mod team is going more for utility when it comes to the spam units. They should have certain qualities:
1. They must be cheap and have small production time so they can be spammed.
2. Be able to respond quite quickly to the various ground enemies around.
3. Have the numbers to make up for their weaker stats.

I do have a problem with them being slave units since they won't be able to respond to enemies outside their target acquire range. Also, it will clutter the base a bit more as well which is a problem.

Concerning your new idea I also have a few qualms. How would you get it to start producing resources again? With anything that modifies the resource output for a structure I think that decision should be up to the player. If spam hordes affect the resource output by being on the field then there should be a choice to make them or not. It shouldn't be automatic. Its true that sometimes workers might come out to fight but its also true they may stay inside to finish producing resources to get to the real fighting troops. This is why it should be a decision in my opinion.

[Námo]

Good points, bananas.

[Kraft Singles]

Why do Elves need a spam unit at all?

From a lore perspective.
Elves are immortal and at the time of the War of the Ring, they were few in numbers. It just doesn't make sense to me that they would have enough people to spam them about.
(correct me if I'm wrong though. I'm not that big of a lore guy)

From a gameplay perspective, Spam units are going to be a pretty essential early unit. Mordor can spam orcs, Moria can spam goblins, Isengard has scouts, Rohan has peasants, etc. This gives them a good advantage early game. They can defend well enough and more importantly, they can deal a fair amount of damage. However, Elves are borderline overpowered as is. They have a lot of powerful heroes, powerful units and some pretty good upgrades. Why bother giving them a spam unit? Force the Elven player to make some choices early game. Do I build some archers and a hero? Or do I build a third barracks, stable, and a good hero? Put the Elven player on edge. Imo, elves are a late game faction. Takes a while to save up for all those heroes and awesome upgrades. So why not give them a bit of a disadvantage early game?

Each faction should have a distinct advantage and disadvantage. For Dwarves? It's the lack of Cavalry and Heroes. For Mordor? It's the lack of any real early game power. Give Elves a distinct early game disadvantage.

[Damrod]

As for me I never really use spam units at all. I focus on building up defenses, and then the army comes next. It seems to me spam units are only really used by the AI, and even then they are only really effective at hampering other team's expansion. I would suggest that elven gardeners not be added simply because they are very unnecessary and would be more work then they are worth. Besides, what's wrong with hobbits?

[isledebananas]

Kraft in a way your right(lore wise) but I think the development team thinks all factions should have spam. I thought in line with you and felt that Elves while having the strongest spam units(given their racial superiority) would also be capable of making the fewest say only like 4-6 or so hordes max. Whereas others would have more considerably more some even capable of making infinite for example Mordor, Moria, and Isengard.

Also, to reflect their fewer numbers of Elves each one would come with a hidden(not seen on Palantir slots) global aura that effects their own resource structures reducing their resource output by a certain percentage perhaps 15% each. This shows Elves need pretty much all they can spare at work to be a viable faction. 6 Hordes reducing the resource output of each building by 15% means your only getting 10% of the former output total per turn. For other factions the percent reduction should be smaller and for Mordor, Moria, and Isengard there should be no drawback since they are even able to produce stronger orcs in mass quite easily. However, they can be sent back into the resource structure to be reclaimed for resources and to remove that aura of theirs.

Besides after listening to someone complain about Elven Siege I thought it best to weaken them in that area. Out of all the ages the Elves have existed I only know of one successful siege they pulled off without the aid of outside influence and that is Dol Guldur after Sauron's fall.

[khamulrulz]

the reason why there are spam units is because they are a fast form of defence if you are under attack, especially if your opponent has strategically taken out some of your infantry-producing buildings. i just thought that the "worker" way of doing it - they work in the resource buildings, and come out to fight, would be cool. you would have to pay more money to replace dead peasants and continue to get resources from that farm.

[Arveanor]

I'm alright with spam units, even though they are virtually useless, but I really don't think that they should deplete your resource gathering abilities AT ALL. And how can you put a limit on a spam unit? the idea is to send unlimited amounts out rapidly to spam the enemy. Explain to me how elves can possibly have an unlimited supply of powerful warriors but a tiny supply of gardeners/farmers? this makes no sense.

[isledebananas]

I made my point earlier how Elves would be more efficient because they are in decline. They would only send a few out to buy time while the rest of the Elves go arm themselves. Since most Elves should be familiar with some kind of combat this makes sense as opposed to other factions where there is a big difference between civilian and true combat troops. A well equipped peasant wouldn't pose much danger in fact probably less than a poorly armed Elvan civilian.

I don't think the spam units are supposed to be traditionally spam units in the fact they can be a near infinite supply. They are supposed to be cheap and quickly produce-able units. Only Mordor, Moria, and Isengard can I see having a true infinite supply seeing as how they literally make soldiers out of pits without end. They could easily just make disposable troops without much burden on their economy. For most other factions having workers not working after some time should realistically cause an income problem.

Since the Elves are in decline they need all hands available doing their duty is why I thought they should get the biggest resource decrease per horde. Dwarves or Gondor would be next followed by Rhun and then Rohan and Harad. The 3 other Evil factions would as I said realistically have no such problems.

[Predi]

I think a spam unit for the elves is not so fitting. The elves where few in number, so they wouldn't use their workers for fight. Maybe something different or them could work. How about this: all Mallorn tree would start with a Flet like on level 3, so that could work against earl rushes. Awww, not good. The trees will be replaced with elven farms. Maybe the farms than could have a tree with a Flet from the start. So the base wouldn't be defenseless against a few horde of goblins/orcs.

Furthermore, I think the elves should be much more stronger. They live for centuries, they have great knowledge and experience. They should be the strongest warriors in the game. Maybe stronger than the dwarves. But to compensate this, they shuold be fewer. Like the swordsman should be in 5x2 formation, ghaladrim archers 4x2, noldor warriors 5x1. And please give them bigger range! Remeber, in the movie Legolas shot down the wargs from like a mile away? (That could be a new ability for him, temporarily doubles the vision and shooting range at level 7 maybe) So the elves should be like all elite units compared to the others but but they should be much much more fewer.

Come to think of it, this second part of the post shouldn't be here, but in different topic, but oh well, it wouldn't hurt anybody here either. I'm too lazy right now to post it elsewhere.

Anyways, have a nice day!

Edited by Predi, 17 January 2010 - 10:40 AM.

[Arveanor]

From a gameplay perspective, Spam units are going to be a pretty essential early unit. Mordor can spam orcs, Moria can spam goblins, Isengard has scouts, Rohan has peasants, etc. This gives them a good advantage early game. They can defend well enough and more importantly, they can deal a fair amount of damage. However, Elves are borderline overpowered as is. They have a lot of powerful heroes, powerful units and some pretty good upgrades. Why bother giving them a spam unit? Force the Elven player to make some choices early game. Do I build some archers and a hero? Or do I build a third barracks, stable, and a good hero? Put the Elven player on edge. Imo, elves are a late game faction. Takes a while to save up for all those heroes and awesome upgrades. So why not give them a bit of a disadvantage early game?

Each faction should have a distinct advantage and disadvantage. For Dwarves? It's the lack of Cavalry and Heroes. For Mordor? It's the lack of any real early game power. Give Elves a distinct early game disadvantage.

Kraft, while I'm all for various advantages and disadvantages, you simply can not realistically give any faction a true early game disadvantage, because with all this mod's attempt to kill the rush, it has really only slowed the rush, rather then killing it. By being weaker during the early stages of the game, the elves will automatically be weaker in the later stages, as they will not have as great an economy, and will be working to come from behind as they try to build stronger units for more, using less resources, and then trying to keep those strong units alive against a well established enemy army.

A well equipped peasant wouldn't pose much danger in fact probably less than a poorly armed Elvan civilian.

I know how elves are superior fighting units, so I agree that they should be strong, but a drafted peasant, equipped with armor, a weapon, and a shield, would still probably kill an elven noncom. I just really don't see the elf being able to easily bypass the formidable defense of a large shield, armor, and a wildly swinging blade or axe, sure if its a fair fight with even equipment, or if the elf can hide and come from behind, the elf will definitely win, but in a one on one fight, where the man has proper equipment, and the elf has a dagger, I have to put my vote on the man.

I don't think the spam units are supposed to be traditionally spam units in the fact they can be a near infinite supply. They are supposed to be cheap and quickly produce-able units. Only Mordor, Moria, and Isengard can I see having a true infinite supply seeing as how they literally make soldiers out of pits without end. They could easily just make disposable troops without much burden on their economy. For most other factions having workers not working after some time should realistically cause an income problem.

Sometimes, quite often, actually, realism must be sacrificed in games in order to preserve the spirit or balance of the game, Do you want to sit around for months waiting for a fullsized barracks to be completed? Me either. I understand these comparisons aren't exact, but I'm just trying to make a point here, realism doesn't always work, and we know that we can't take this mod too far, we can't make it too complex. If players have a damaged income while defending their base, they are going to have the issue of fighting an uphill battle as the odds continue to get worse, even if its a stalemate. Generating resources could probably be seen as the number one goal of this game, everything else is centered around it, and when pulling out a few pathetic guys in a last-ditch attempt to save your base results in the loss of 90% of your income, even if your economy had been twice as strong as your opponents, you'd be working out of a whopping 20% of your opponents income, this is not a recipe for success, it basically assumes that if you are attacked, and if you have to call in additional troops for defense, then you will lose. A spam unit needs to be cheap, by nature, but when that spam unit costs 15% of your total economy, they very rapidly become as expensive as a top rate hero, so how does this help anyone?

Now let me try once again to give a point I threw out there earlier.

Explain to me how elves can possibly have an unlimited supply of powerful warriors but a tiny supply of gardeners/farmers? this makes no sense

Now think about it, the elves can, with the exception of CP, which governs most everything, deploy an infinite supply of troops that are highly trained with incredible armor. I'm talking about sentries, swordsman, lancers, and various flavors of archers. Why do you think that a dwindling race needs to have a limited supply of farmers and other civilian types, but have a limitless flow of the aforementioned soldiers?

bananas, you have some awesome ideas that are really cool, but this one just is not practical, which is actually kind of sad, as some realism can be a refreshing thing.


Edit: sorry about the massive wall of text.

Edited by Arveanor, 17 April 2010 - 06:10 AM.

[Hobbit Hunter]

Well as much as I would indeed like to see an Elven spam unit that is actually made out of elves I have to admit that making thme any more powerful than the other factions' spam units would appear to be a fairly big mistake. I am all for realism but you can't go around giving people better early game units just for the sake of realism. So my two cents would be that a gardener unit would be nice but it must still be as weak as everyone else's spam units.

[GoldDrag]

Perhaps as strong as a Woodcutter?

[essyweb]

hmm... the thing is that although the hobbit house is in the game, it doesn't have build-up anims or level-up differences, so it wouldn't be that much of a loss to be honest.