Jump to content


Photo

Elven Siege


  • Please log in to reply
26 replies to this topic

#1 isledebananas

isledebananas
  • Members
  • 182 posts

Posted 15 December 2009 - 08:37 AM

In the Rohan section siege was discussed and it came up that the Ents don't really fit well with any faction beyond a summon. Though Ents seem to have a stronger connection to the Elves I'm sure if they could have convinced them to go to war Galadriel would have done so. The second reason for me personally is that Elves are already incredibly strong faction with Ents as their siege its just freaking tough. Elves imo have the best units to complement Ent siege which are those incredibly powerful archers. So I thought for Elves they should have probably the weakest siege units. They seem to be more the recipient of sieges throughout the ages more so than going on the siege which might account for such a weakness. They also unlike dwarves and men don't seem to be into gadgetry in general which is what your getting into with heavy siege.

I read on one of these topics that people wanted the ballista on the elven siege boat to be used on the Fortress expansions and wall sections as the siege upgrade opposed to the Ents. Then I remembered the new Wain Riders and how they have that chariot in the back. Perhaps for Elves a similar thing but with a bigger wagon for a elf manning a ballista. This would be built from the stables, I always thought elves should have another horse unit anyways. They would have about 5 units in the battalion and have pretty good range but less damage since the weapon itself is weaker.

The second one would be I guess a bit of a rip from the old RA mod. Basically a group of Elven singers/healers who can attack buildings. Their siege would either come as their only method of attack or an ability. The siege attack will be kind of magical. They will either do some hand movements/singing and then a giant boulder will come out of the ground and be launched at the building or like some kind of sideways pillars will jut out from the ground close to the building and smash it or the building will just kind of shake as if there is an earthquake under it. I mostly get this idea from Galadriel's description of throwing down the walls of Dol Guldur. Certainly while she is supposed to be incredibly powerful the destruction these singer/healers would do is not of that caliber.

The third one would be as described above Galadriel herself. I just think its hilarious with the karate chop action Galadriel we currently have :p . Its just not Galadriel to see her doing something like that. She is basically their heavy siege imo with I guess Elrond(spells) and Glorfindel(being a living tank). Her attack would either be an ability or a natural attack. The natural attack would be similar to how other siege function but faster and less damage but no visible projectile she waves her hands when you target something and a few seconds later it takes damage. The ability would either be cast on area or specific target and do a constant hp drain on the building for a duration of time while the building kind of shakes similar to the thing mentioned in above paragraph. To further weaken Elven Siege I think Galadriel herself should be made into a summon. That seems similar to lore imo is that she only comes out in certain situations since she herself is not a warrior. Perhaps a spell book power that can only be cast in an area around Celeborn. To compensate for the shorter time she spends on field she will have really strong auras and abilities. Perhaps even an aura that gives bonus damage against buildings to all units.

#2 khamulrulz

khamulrulz

    title available

  • Members
  • 469 posts

Posted 15 December 2009 - 08:58 AM

i'm fine with ents being with the elves, but a ballista would be nice (i'm thinking a more conventional ballista, built from a level 2 eregion forge). it would be able to get a silverthorn upgrade.
Posted Image
Posted Image

#3 Ring o' Fate

Ring o' Fate

    The Ghost.

  • Project Team
  • 1,627 posts
  • Location:PA
  • Projects:Trying to find meaning...
  •  The guy that is just a ghost.

Posted 15 December 2009 - 09:03 PM

The Elves already have some of the strongest troops and heroes in the game. It would be an imbalance for the Elves to have the best siege. Or any built siege weapons. I personally think it should be like TEA: Elves have certain heroes (IE Galadriel) as siege and things like Ents summoned via the Spellbook for siege as well.
A changed man is only the same man with a different outlook of life.

#4 Gfire

Gfire

    Nuju

  • Project Team
  • 2,173 posts
  • Location:I have returned from the depths
  • Projects:Finding My Way
  •  The Perfectionist

Posted 15 December 2009 - 09:09 PM

Well, this mod is supposed to lessen the need for heroes. I don't think you should need them for siege. But still, I think eagles and ents should probably be strictly summons (except for probably the elven fortress eagle.) So they need something. Maybe something like the mages in RJ, if it works with the lore. In the movies, the only form of mass destruction made by the elves was the flood. Maybe some unit with a flood ability.

You could basically do it like in TEA, but use an elite single unit along with the heroes. I think this would work better in SEE.
Greetings, community.

#5 isledebananas

isledebananas
  • Members
  • 182 posts

Posted 15 December 2009 - 09:18 PM

Technically Ents aren't the best since their glaring weakness is the fire arrows. However, Elves offer the best backup for them with 4-5 battalions of archers and 1-2 battalions of cavalry most AI bases would go down unless they use some powerful spell summons. Also the above is not counting heroes. I don't agree with them not having any siege it just shouldn't be siege machines. Elves just don't seem like a race that would be into making things like that. In Elven Alliance the heroes ability to destroy buildings was a bit too much. Like I said to limit that to make Galadriel a summon as she would be the most siege orientated hero.

The strongest siege unit for Elves would be those singer/healers. Like regular siege though they would be pretty slow and vulnerable, but have the same weaknesses as light armored units meaning basically most types of attack can easily take them down. This is opposed to regular siege which is somewhat resistant to arrow fire. Also this makes them easier to take out with the enemies own ranged siege since they lack enough hp. Meaning Elves would have to be somewhat aggressive about taking them out or lose their main siege.

That ballista cavalry thing would be while really mobile just a bit better than your current fire arrow archers at damaging buildings especially since they have the range advantage which archers should not.

#6 Prince of the Dark Forest

Prince of the Dark Forest
  • Members
  • 249 posts

Posted 15 December 2009 - 09:25 PM

Elves didn't demonstrate any siege during the WotR, maybe there is something in the lore from other Middle Earth fictions?

I think spells are the best way forward. A healer and a spellcaster (with a powers set similar to a hero, but all ranged powers with structural damage). I think I saw something like this in another mod. They had 3 spellcasters, one was specialized in fire, one in water and the other was something else...
Ignited into the world in a flash of lightning, it gleams faintly in the heart of its mother, wood. It begins as an ember, a mere wisp of heat and colour. Its chance of survival at this critical moment is minute, yet it fights on, against the unforgiving cold, against the depths of night and against its mortal enemy: rain.

#7 isledebananas

isledebananas
  • Members
  • 182 posts

Posted 15 December 2009 - 09:50 PM

Like I said it is a somewhat rip from the old RA mod. They will be in groups of 3. I keep reading that pretty much all elves were trained in combat so maybe they can have either bow or some blade to attack anyone regularly. However, since there are few of them they aren't really meant for such things. They would have an ability that directly damages buildings, an aura that heals units around them similar to a fountain, and finally maybe another ability that gives a small damage bonus against buildings to units around them(similar to the way Theoden's heroic charge works but as a damage buff).

Magic like the kind Elrond used to surge the river is something only very few individuals could do across all races save Ainur. Most other magics are quite subtle not so fierce and obvious. Only some learned Elf Lords/Ladies such as Galadriel and Elrond could do these things even amongst Elves. Even other really famous Elves mostly rulers are not even hinted at doing things of that nature even though they are said to be greater. That's why I don't like something so overtly magical being done by regular units.

#8 Gfire

Gfire

    Nuju

  • Project Team
  • 2,173 posts
  • Location:I have returned from the depths
  • Projects:Finding My Way
  •  The Perfectionist

Posted 15 December 2009 - 11:02 PM

The elves did destroy dol guldur, so they must have been able to tear down walls and buildings fairly effectively.

It's true that only some elves were able to do that. But in the film, Arwen caused the flood, and she isn't put amongst the strongest Elves, especially in BFME. I think it would be decent to have single unit spellcasters like in RJ. Being a single unit would make them more realistic and less overpowered. Then they can cause floods or whatever else to tear down buildings.

Besides this, some heroes could also help out as siege.
Greetings, community.

#9 Arthadan

Arthadan
  • Members
  • 215 posts

Posted 16 December 2009 - 10:06 AM

For Elven siege, I'd go for a unit able to climb walls and then with special ability of opening the door or the enemy fortress 8they keep it open as long as they are near it without moving, as when capturing a building). Far more believable according to the lore than an unit of spell casters tearing walls apart.
Posted Image

Posted Image

#10 isledebananas

isledebananas
  • Members
  • 182 posts

Posted 16 December 2009 - 03:39 PM

I guess we need the hookup from Namo on this one since he is the best lore expert. I can only recall the thing about Galadriel throwing down the walls of Dol Guldur. Beyond that I don't recall any siege. I also know that magic of that caliber even for Elves of her "might" is rare.

#11 Gfire

Gfire

    Nuju

  • Project Team
  • 2,173 posts
  • Location:I have returned from the depths
  • Projects:Finding My Way
  •  The Perfectionist

Posted 16 December 2009 - 04:55 PM

Something like that could work, Arthadan, but SEE requires siege weapons against pretty much all structures. Especially considering the elves don't have fire arrows, they need something to destroy basic structures, not just get into the base.
Greetings, community.

#12 isledebananas

isledebananas
  • Members
  • 182 posts

Posted 21 December 2009 - 05:51 PM

I think I came up with an idea about what to do. Since such overt "magic" is mostly the work of Ainur it won't be something the elves themselves possess except aforementioned heroes. Instead the singer/healers will cast spells that buff units around them similar to Theoden's charge. I base this off of Gandalf in Two Towers when he heated Aragorn's sword. Now I know Gandalf himself is an Ainur but even "Gandalf the White" wasn't Olorin in his true full power. It was a subtle magic which I think is possible for Elves even if they aren't very powerful.

They will have two abilities that affect the attacks of units around them. One will either give a small amount of siege damage to the units or a damage multiplier vs buildings to those units(note not the same as siege damage). The second ability will imbue weapons giving them flame damage since as someone said Elves don't have fire arrows.

Furthermore I know both Sulherokkh and Nazgul have been saying about how they wanted to change the fire arrow system to be more realistic. All factions should have a brazier carrying unit who has the ability to buff units around them for a short period of time with fire arrows or they permanently have this ability but that's a bit overpowered. It seems more realistic since from them is where the units would get the actual fire for their arrows. Also to account for the time to light arrows on fire the ability would slow down the attack speed of units affected except the Elven version(since there's wouldn't be a brazier carrier). Now all archers could have a different arrow upgrade that gives them bonus damage.

#13 Gfire

Gfire

    Nuju

  • Project Team
  • 2,173 posts
  • Location:I have returned from the depths
  • Projects:Finding My Way
  •  The Perfectionist

Posted 23 December 2009 - 01:06 AM

Gandalf is actually a Maia.

Heating up weapons makes some sense, except, erm, they will not be bale to hold them anymore. :p

In age of empires 2 there is an upgrade called sappers which makes villagers have a +15 damage bonus against structures. (To put this in perspective, their regular attack does 3 damage.)
Greetings, community.

#14 isledebananas

isledebananas
  • Members
  • 182 posts

Posted 23 December 2009 - 05:34 PM

Actually both Maiar and Valar are considered Ainur. The difference names account for their strength and importance in cosmology.

The difference was with Aragorn the whole blade was heated up for the arrows only the tip would get warm. If they can heat up weapons its not too much of a stretch that they can do so to still allow the weapons to be wielded. I guess its more similar to the Witch King lighting his sword on fire albeit not as powerful or dramatic.

Yeah that example from AoE 2 is kind of what I mean ;an ability that momentarily buffs units(probably only archers) with either small amount of siege damage or gives a multiplier against buildings. To make it an aura or upgrade I think would make it too powerful as many think Elves are strong enough as is they should have some weakness and siege seems to be it. I also don't recall other than Dol Guldur the Elves making a major siege success by themselves meaning no help from other races or Ainur.

#15 Gfire

Gfire

    Nuju

  • Project Team
  • 2,173 posts
  • Location:I have returned from the depths
  • Projects:Finding My Way
  •  The Perfectionist

Posted 23 December 2009 - 06:19 PM

Oh, that's right, I haven't studied that properly. (Can't make myself read from the Silmarillion for some reason.)

I was picturing swords, but with spears and arrows it would be better.

Also having a few heroes with very powerful abilities would be able to assist in siege, though probably not able to take a whole fortress down alone (you'd at least need to protect them with your archers or something.)

Also, in age of mythology, there was a god power (spellbook power,) which lit target unit's weapons on fire, increasing damage.
Greetings, community.

#16 isledebananas

isledebananas
  • Members
  • 182 posts

Posted 24 December 2009 - 12:39 AM

Gah Silmarillon shows that Elves are a bunch of hypocrites they were just as stupid around the Silmarils as humans around the One Ring.

When it comes to heroes the main siege would be Galadriel. Just the vibe I get from the books is that she seems pretty strong in the siege department. So she would be the strongest siege for them. However, as Ring o' Fate brought up Elves are pretty strong all around so to make them kind of balanced they'll have somewhat weak siege. To make up for Galadriel's strength I still believe that she should be relegated to a summon(with timer) from either spell book, building, or Celeborn's ability. It just seems she didn't come out to fight except in certain situations. Basically summoning Galadriel would be when they are doing a traditional siege( where units protect the powerful ranged siege). Any more traditional siege is too much since Elves powerful archers just make that type of siege too effective.

Since she would be a summon and their primary siege(chariot ballistae) would be comparatively weak to other factions I thought of those singer/healers. They would have the buffing powers which would allow the Elves some options and that would give them a unique siege. However, since this would only mean that there regular units are just more effective against buildings they would need to adopt a more aggressive siege style.

Yeah that whole fire damage buff I got from Age of Mythology. I haven't had a chance to play Age of Kings otherwise I probably would "steal" ideas from there too. People seem to want some "dragon" theme for Rhun so I thought the flaming weapons spell book power would belong to them.

#17 Ring o' Fate

Ring o' Fate

    The Ghost.

  • Project Team
  • 1,627 posts
  • Location:PA
  • Projects:Trying to find meaning...
  •  The guy that is just a ghost.

Posted 30 December 2009 - 06:12 PM

THANK YOU! Someone finally agrees with me about Elves having weak siege!

And yeah, the Elves are hypocrites. :p
A changed man is only the same man with a different outlook of life.

#18 *Ranger*

*Ranger*
  • Members
  • 142 posts

Posted 31 December 2009 - 01:15 PM

If the elven problem is sorted out then this will be my ultimate mod!

Oh how i hate how the elves are exploited, lol that brings back bad memories

#19 Arveanor

Arveanor
  • Members
  • 83 posts

Posted 12 January 2010 - 01:04 AM

What about making the ents only use melee with an ability that allows them to throw rocks with highly variable damage. This makes sense as while ents through huge rocks when they found them, they wouldn't have a magical infinite supply of rocks, and they'd have to be weaker this way.

I actually like the idea of chariot ballistae better than this, but if we're holding onto ents for some reason, I think this could work pretty well.

#20 isledebananas

isledebananas
  • Members
  • 182 posts

Posted 12 January 2010 - 10:58 PM

I agree with that making the rock grab an ability. That makes sense and seems more realistic instead of the infinite supply. Because most of the ground is not rock but highly packed dirt. It would take several meters to hit rock and I don't see the Ents digging. I think that should be done anyways to limit the Ents even as a summon. However I think the summon should have 1-2 more Ents in it to make up for it. Perhaps even Treebeard should be in the summon. Then relegate Quickbeam to be the Ent within the faction. I think that reflects lore since he was the Ent who wanted to be active and had already made up his mind.




1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users