34 replies to this topic

[Esparado87]

Has anyone made a decent/good Barad Dur map (any bfme game)

[yams in a can]

I don't really know any other... except this one....

http://lordofthering...Barad_Dur;75218

*Esparado, yes I know I gave you this already .

[_Haldir_]

I think most people have stayed away from Barad dur because of the scale. The movie portrays the tower as being mind-bogglingly huge - so that if you were to map it, it would either seem under-scaled, or you would only see a fraction of the base (which is pretty ordinary)

Though not to deter anyone from trying it, i'm sure it could be done well

[Námo]

The name is Barad-dûr, though in many instances spelt Barad-dur or Baraddur, but never Barad Dur.

I don't know the actual scale envisioned by Tolkien, as there certainly are some conflicting statements in his writings, cf.:

The Building of the Barad-dur (from a rec.arts.books.tolkien posting dated 2 June 1996):

I was going over the Tale of Years this evening, looking for information for a different article, when I came across an unexpected puzzle.

In the Tale of Years for the Second Age (Return of the King p. 364 hardback), it states the following:

"c. 1000 Sauron ... chooses Mordor as a land to make into a stronghold. He begins the building of Barad-dur.
. . .
"c. 1600 Sauron forges the One Ring in Orodruin. He completes the Barad-dur. Celebrimbor perceives the designs of Sauron..."

What makes this curious is the clear statement given by Elrond about the Dark Tower's construction, as he described the cleaning-up after the Battle of the Last Alliance (Fellowship of the Ring p. 257 hardback, emphasis mine):

"The Dark Tower was broken, but its foundations were not removed; for they were made with the power of the Ring ..."

Now since the Ring wasn't forged until SA 1600, this means that Sauron spent approximately six hundred years building the Barad-dur ... before he had built the foundation! Moreover, once the foundation was finally laid, the Barad-dur was completed almost immediately!

... How do we explain this? How can we explain how Sauron - a Maia of Aule, no less - could spend six hundred years building a Tower, and yet build the foundation last?

Doubtless there are many possible explanations; I'm looking forward to hearing what others may suggest. For my part I've been thinking about it all evening, and I believe I have a possible answer - one clearly in character for Sauron, the master of cruelty and deceit:

Pre-fabricated modular housing.

Sauron developed the black and heinous art of building mobile homes.

... It's worth observing that, once Sauron had the foundations set up, he could also rebuild the Barad-dur with incredible speed. The Tower was "levelled to the ground" at the end of the Second Age (Silmarillion p. 294 hardback); yet, according to the Tale of Years, Sauron began rebuilding the Barad-dur in TA 2951 - and it was evidently finished by the time of the War of the Ring (TA 3018), only some 67 years later! More evidence in favor of the Barad-dur being a prefab, don't you think?

Perhaps the most convincing evidence, however, comes from none other than the Mouth of Sauron (Return of the King p. 166 hardback) when he implies that just having to live in the Barad-dur constitutes an unimaginable torture. It's also worth noting that, on the same page, he notes that he himself has plans to move to Isengard at the first available opportunity.

[NewErr]

I know that map , tho honestly I don't see the point of a Barad-dûr map , a tower in the middle of a wasteland with a lava river , but I think is just a fantasy .

I agree that proportions in the movies were huge and you can only get in a map fraction of the real thing ,but also I think rescaling it might work , like EA did with Minas Morgul tower ( clever guys ) .

@Námo
So much info per cm of post. . I love it

Edited by Valaquenta10, 17 June 2010 - 10:10 AM.

[_Haldir_]

The Dark Tower was described as existing on a massive scale so large it was almost surreal, although Tolkien does not provide much detail beyond its size and immense strength. Since it had a "topmost tower" it presumably had multiple towers. It is otherwise described as dark and surrounded in shadow, so that it could not be clearly seen.

"..rising black, blacker and darker than the vast shades amid which it stood, the cruel pinnacles and iron crown of the topmost tower of Barad-dûr..."

In the Lord of the Rings film trilogy by Peter Jackson, Richard Taylor and his design team built a 9 meter high miniature ("big-ature") of Barad-dûr for use in the film. Using the size scale for the model implemented for the films, the Dark Tower is depicted as being over 914 m (3,000 feet) tall. (citation needed)

If you take the rough estimate of 3000 ft tall, and set the spot height tool to 3000, you won't even come close to being able to see it in-game. Here's a rough indication of supposed scale:



The model found in Mordor's objects (the one used for the shellmap in BFME 1) is barely a third of this height. Even then, you won't be able to see the Eye (which is really the only cool bit). The problem with rescaling though, is that the model (i.e. the battlements and stuff), even at regular scale, still looks seriously under-scaled when you compare it to regular units . And that's at regular scale. It becomes increasingly unrealistic and undersized, the further you scale it down.

On the other hand, if you enlargened the Barad-dur model to the approximate height and scale based on BFME units, you would only be able to see the tower base, and it would take up a huge portion of the map.

The only way to have the full Barad-dur model (with decent looking scale, realistic proportions etc) and be able to see even half of the tower, is to alter the camera settings to ridiculous zoom distances. Either that, or build up the terrain to a colossal height, so that the camera climbs that high automatically. But again, same ridiculous zoom.

Even then, as Val said, you have to question the interest of another Mordor map. Mordor is boring. All those maps are the same, they're black and lifeless, sometimes with mountains, sometimes some lava..

The only way i could suggest, is to make a map of the first level of the tower. Maybe like a donut shaped layout, with a massive tower in the middle. But again, not terribly interesting

[Kwen]

Solution: Make the map IN THE EYE!!!

[NewErr]

Or make the tower with the texture on the map , like a poster or something .

[Devon]

What if you decreased the scale for all regular units and buldings?

[Kwen]

Wouldn't that just be the same as zooming out really far? But with a still huge map?

[NewErr]

People must understand it's really insane ....

[Ridder Geel]

...Insane? Lets do it!

[Devon]

Wouldn't that just be the same as zooming out really far? But with a still huge map?

Basically yes, Worldbuilder/your computer has a limit on what it can handle in regards to map size. This would allow you to fit more of the fortress in, as well as making it look more realistically scaled without having to scale the actual tower ridiculously high.

[Nertea]

I think something really cool could be done with a fortress campaign-style map - have one side the main gate area of the tower, complete with bidge extending out over the lava moat, then have the other half of the map a mass of crude orcish camps with interspersed walls, smithies (with lava flowing to them!) and stuff. In this hypothetical scenario, the player would have to fight their way up to the gate (which would constantly have stuff pouring over the bridge), levelling most of the orc camps and maybe as an objective of building a bunch of palisade structures at certain points to begin the siege. Fun stuff, I think.

[Sindarin]

Nice idea...
But at this moment i'll be w8ing some suggestion for Utumno map..anyway can be funny make a great Dark Tower Map!!!!!
:-)

[yams in a can]

Here is one bye High Elven Lord...
http://forums.revora...showtopic=67842

Edited by yams in a can, 18 June 2010 - 12:01 AM.

[Esparado87]

Could work like this?
Only problem is that barad-dur buildings vanish when the map is played (i don't think the buildings are CINE objects...)






Edit: seems the buildings wont vanish if they are normal size (unscaled) but if larger then normal size, they vanish......sigh.... :(

Edited by Esparado87, 18 June 2010 - 04:21 AM.

[Devon]

...Yeah, that looks pretty cool.

[yams in a can]

Dude, that looks pretty amazing!

[yams in a can]

You may want to ask people from Istari Productions... But hey, that map you made makes me think you could join them .