48 replies to this topic

[Nazgûl]

This is something I've thought about since... the dawn of SEE, actually, but for once I am going to investigate on the publics opinion before we do it...

Answer me this:
- What is the logic (really) behind a maiar like Gandalf having to "learn" or "discover" his abilities, the longer he fights? We're talking about a maiar here... a "god" - not a new born mockinbird. But this goes for anyone really, regardless if it's Aragorn or a lesser hero like Shagrat... why should they have to wait to be able to use their powers? They're friggin heroes! This is my thought on this...

1) Make heroes less "tanks", meaning, reduce the high armor to more realistic levels. This will fit rather well with the "flee system" that Sûl coded, that makes heroes retreat to base when they're badly damaged, and it all ads even more to "realism" - one of the corner stones of SEE.

2) Remove the stupid (!?) pre req to "learn as you go", and have ALL heroes start at level 10, to differentiate them more from units. Heroes are heroes cause they have experience and abilities that others don't have.

3) Counter this with adding well balanced timers for all powers, just like the Balrog's. Whip has a quick reload, while Ignite is a bit longer and Scorch is much longer. The more powerful the power or spell is, the longer it takes to reload. Not very advanced and a lot like it already is, but with longer timers for some things. This is a lot more "realistic" than the learn as you go solution.

4) This will enable us to have heroes recruitable from ANY stucture, rather than cram them all into the faction's fortress keep!


Like - not like?

Edited by Nazgûl, 19 September 2014 - 11:35 PM.

[drogoth232]

Its a great idea! The examples you give are good. Although the main "epic" heroes stay in the Citadel, but you already knew that.......

Why didnt I think of that for my mod!!!

It gets the Droggy seal of Approval!

[Kwen]

I think you're going to have to balance costs out hardcore as well. I mean, who wants to pay 3000 for a weakened Legolas (for example) Yes their powers will all be available, but some heres do not have these 'uber' powers. And having them start at level 10 would be almost useless in comparison to other heroes.

It's a good idea, But I would almost prefer a different way to make heroes stand out and be unique. Because training a hero requires a certain level of strategy that would be removed. I mean, in the early game (might not apply to SEE's changed game economics) a player needs to decide whether or not to go for units, or buy a hero quick. Then, they have to send that hero out and creep to help him gain levels, so he has a tactical advantage in battle.

Perhaps if you make all their powers unlocked at level 1, then make the experience being simply a slight increase in strength/health

I agree with the idea that heroes should know all their powers by default, but I think that the experience shouldn't be removed entirely, because it's quite a large piece of strategy being clipped.

[njm1983]

I love the idea, I really have always felt heroes shouldnt be tanks but more fragile and the abilities they have are what makes them unique and have staying power above and beyond that of regular units.

Kwen makes a good point about the strategy of building a hero, it will simplify it a bit. however I believe the leaderships stuff that each hero will bring to specific unit types will make up for that lack of strategy and get players to think about unit hero combinations to get more out of em.

In short: I support....

P.S. Naz would you happen to have a dl link you could send me to dl the maps directory I sent you a while ago? If SEE can get itself going again I might resume some map work. The first step is mucking around with what SEE already has.

[Gfire]

Yeah it seems good.

What if you had Anduril still be an upgrade or spellbook passive ability required to use AotD? That would make a lot of sense. Perhaps other similar features if it makes sense in the situation. For the greatest heroes, probably.]

Anyways, in some games the heroes sort of take a role as more of an RPG character who grows and learns abilities, but that doesn't make a lot of sense for SEE. The only heroes it would really make sense to level up would be the Hobbits.

Also, would the timers start all reset so you must wait in order to use any power? Thus, you couldn't use your "level 10" power as soon as you came out of the fortress/other building, but would have to wait some time. I think this would be best.

As an additional suggestion, have you thought about making it so that when you use any power it adds the time to all your recharge timers, so you must think about which powers you wish to use and it is more dynamic? So like, if you are constantly using your quick-recharge power you will never be able to use your long-recharge power, but you must wait a while in order to use those powers. I think this would require more thought and effort from the players while making heroes less powerful (balanced with stats and timers, of course.)

Do you think that heroes would steal a lot of kills and prevent other units from getting experience? I suppose it would be the same as a level 10 hero now, but would be more common. Is this an issue? Should heroes have shared experience to nearby units or something?

[Kwen]

I think that heroes stealing kills would really only be an issue with fast shooting archer units, like Legolas... Even he could stand a bit of a slowdown in attack speed, don't you think? Wouldn't he cramp shooting THAT fast all the time?

[Gfire]

I guess the train archer ability makes up for it, though.

[Ganon]

Wouldn't he cramp shooting THAT fast all the time?

...Cramp?!
Dammit man he's an elf!

Edited by Ganon2020, 25 October 2010 - 04:03 AM.

[Nazgûl]

Thanks guys for all the posts... a lot of useful ideas here! I'll make a nice mixture of it all =)

@Kwen: Any chance you could do (or donate) some modeling for/to SEE? I seem to recall we used to talk about SEE stuff together a while back... ? Mostly, I'm in need of some Rohan units... Let me know if you're interested in participating with your work in SEE =)

@NJM: How about I give you access to the Google repo (repository)? You could constantly download the latest version of the mod, AND upload any changes you make to maps for us to download, and thus we have a secure backup online (besides on our PCs)

Edited by Nazgûl, 25 October 2010 - 01:07 PM.

[njm1983]

That would be ideal Naz, Having the ability to back up like that will save me from many headaches. Having gone back and looked at some of the work I had done Im still bummed I lost some cool maps. being able to tinker a bit might get the creative juices flowing, not too mention getting to play around with some of the new stuff will be really cool. Any way Pm me the link and Ill get started asap.

[isledebananas]

I do agree about not having a level requirement. Most heroes didn't actually advance their experience or skill during the War. However, some of them did learn things through their battles, but not all at the same pace. For example, the Hobbits learned a lot whereas people like Aragorn learned little. So your right in that some heroes should start at level 10, but others should start at some reduced level.

The ability requirement is a bit different though. Some of their abilities are innate whereas others only came through special items or something specific happening. For example Gandalf could only do certain things after becoming the White, and Aragorn only after getting Anduril. I think that part of it should still account for something. The system for becoming Gandalf the White is already in place, but nothing for Aragorn. Perhaps some upgrades for heroes would have to be purchased.

Modifying their stats is something I highly approve of. It adds for lots of possibilities when it comes to spells and abilities. Sometimes abilities for some heroes are lacking because they aren't exactly "spell" heavy and mostly use physical abilities. Having an ability that boosts armor earlier would have been too powerful and unnecessary, but now with weaker armor stats makes sense. Its also realistic for certain warriors to charge in and be defensive tanking all the damage by raising their shield or parrying blows.

When it comes to ability timers I don't think much modification is needed. Having those strong powers too early can be countered by upping the cost of heroes. Perhaps some slight modification is needed. However, could it be possible that ability timers recharge faster when not in combat? That makes sense to me in that you can gather yourself faster when not in the middle of combat.

I don't think being able to get heroes from any structure is good idea. To remove the problem of stronger heroes too early I think certain buildings should produce certain heroes. For example Faramir at lvl 1 Barracks, Boromir at lvl 2 Barracks, and Aragorn at lvl 3 Barracks. Also, some of those would require additional building requirements such as Blacksmith.

[khamulrulz]

I think that heroes should level up (if you want to make them more powerful, simply make them level up faster). This is important, because they would be hugely over-powered against early game units if they had their lvl 10 powers. Also, some of the powers I put in my tech tree thread take into account actual progress in the character throughout the story.

For example, in my tech tree Merry and Pippin both get armor upgrades as part of their Lvl 8 abilities, because in RotK they become an esquire of Rohan and Citadel Guard respectively. Aragorn has something similar at Lvl 7 where he gets a damage upgrade because he now has Anduril. Gandalf becomes Gandalf the White at Lvl 7, with greater powers.

But my main point is that some abilities are more suited to early game, taking out units or granting leadership bonuses, whereas others would be hugely out of place. Imagine oathbreakers, or Word of Power, or Tornadoes and floods popping up everywhere at the start of the game. I feel that players should have to work to gain these powerful abilities.

[Ridder Blauw]

Thnx for your answer but I think were sure we're gonna do it anyways.
Heroes will be tuned down as in SEE they aren't supposed to be tanks.

[Nazgûl]

Yes, besides there are more options to trim this:
- Have long timers for powerful powers and short timers for weaker powers
- Powers could START with timers, so you'd still have to wait before you could use Saruman's lightning etc...
- Some powers could easily require other things as pre-req, just like Gandalf's horse requires the Rohan Stables in the current public beta (4.5). Nazgul's Fellbeasts could require a specific building to be built first and Aragorns Anduril could require the Armory. Oathbreakers could be Spell Book only and Anduril could enable Aragorn to get the King of the Dead as summon instead, etc etc.
- Moving heroes to other structures makes them enter game later... like having to build Warg Pit to get Sharku, or Orc Pit to get Gothmog... just like Treebeard is spawn from the Ent Moot only. This would remove the term "early game heroes" since that concept is no longer needed, as I want SEE to be about faction units and large battles, where heroes are support to units instead of the other way around. Powerful heroes should be powerful from start, but we'll balance that put according to these plans which makes using Word of Power on 15 orcs doing a rade at your base, a waste =)

Edited by Nazgûl, 03 November 2010 - 04:43 PM.

[isledebananas]

Other than mounts I don't think most other spells should require a certain building. The problem would be that if any of these buildings get taken out then use of that power would be removed immediately until its rebuilt. Perhaps if the building has an upgrade that allows the ability like Anduril Upgrade - Allows King of the Dead Summon or certain Spell Book Powers are also requirements for certain abilities?

I think the balance issue will be cost. Naturally more powerful heroes with more powerful abilities will cost far more and are more difficult to get. The problem with this is you can't rush to get them since that will leave you vulnerable to early aggression. Even later saving up that money will require you to turtle and save up. This allows the opponent to either do the same or amass an army. Now when they attack your base with swarm of units and Gandalf pops out you kind of need the Word of Power available otherwise you get swamped. The cost will determine if the ability timers should start with cooldown. If the cost is high then the ability needs to be there, but if the cost is lower then it can be on the timer.

I don't know if no one noticed earlier. Is it possible for timer's to recharge faster when the hero is out of combat or slower when in combat? I think that would balance things out as well and makes sense people aren't machines casting spells left and right takes a toll on how easy it is to cast something else.

[Ridder Blauw]

We shouldnt do to much with upgrades. Theres a limit so if we go give upgrades for each hero we might end up with the limit in the way.

[Nazgûl]

Yes, and scrapping CaH would free some of those... =)

[Ridder Blauw]

We need to talk on MSN I might know a different way to work against hero spamming powers.

[Nazgûl]

I'm at work =/

[isledebananas]

Your right I wasn't suggesting upgrades for every hero. Simply for some of the ones that have really devastating powers. For example Aragorn would have an upgrade Anduril making him overall stronger and giving him the King of the Dead Summon. This could be at the blacksmith which currently has only 3 upgrades so really its not crowded.