28 replies to this topic

[Nazgûl]

Atm, we have run into problems coding the mod again... this due to Sûl's somewhat "messy" files. Geniouses often are a tad "unorganized" ;p
This means that atm I have no idea how to solve certain things with coding, but I'll find a way... In the mean time I'm still trying to collect all assets needed for SEE. Coding progress is one thing. Asset progress is another. Combine them, and you have a finished mod

For the future Harad faction, I'm in need of a Harad fortress. Preferably as cool as the Rhûn fortress that TT made. Now while trying to explain the concept to TT I found that it was much harder to explain than the Rhun version. It's also much more complex for TT to model, since these structures contain so many details. And I'd like to use a lot from the existing structures (tents) to make the fortress fit and blend in with the nomadic desert people that Harad has been cast as in SEE. Unfortionately, this would require a lot of tedious modeling for TT, and I feel it might not be worth it as I can't really explain in detail what I envision for them. We'll see what he comes up with... But as a pretty good (to me at least) alternative, I came up with this kitbash of models in WB. Now I just need to find someone to bash them together.

In coding, I could make this fortress upgrade with Flags for bonuses, Tusks for protection and the lit Torches for fire arrows...
Naturally, I'd reskin the flags from TRAFFIC red into a more subtle dark red... and the roof of the arrow towers into the brown haradrim cloth.. =)














These are the models I used - all from BFME1

Edited by Nazgûl, 14 November 2010 - 09:16 PM.

[Elegost]

Cool fortress ! Dis you plan to include kind of "wall hub " or a wall expansion for it ? I have an idea : since it's a nomadic life style , you could make walls bordered with tusks , a bit like Rohan , weak walls whose the first role is to surround the camp , like in BFME Rohan 's camp .

[Nazgûl]

There is actually a finished wall model in WB (WorldBuilder) for Harad... It's sorta looking like the small walls outside the entrance to this fort, but with small tusks as well.

[isledebananas]

I think the concept with Harad should be different. That looks more like Mordor with some bones thrown on. I do think you can change the style of building just for the fortress. It makes sense that the Fortress would look far more sturdy and less nomadic than the rest of their structures. If Nomadic people really intended to make a Fortress I think that it would be different from their traditional structures. Usually though true nomadic cultures might be more likely to use terrain that would be easy to hold rather than make something. The Fortress its very nature goes against being nomadic if you think about it. Nomadic structures should be easy to assemble and disassemble, which the latter isn't very good attribute for a fortress to have. Tents especially would look weird taking more than 3 hits from any siege machine.

Since its tents you could make it a lot weaker than the other factions fortress, but you would have to give some benefits. Its weak on hp and defence, but perhaps cheaper and quicker to build. However, what is the benefit of that? Technically you can build more fortresses, but why would you want to since they aren't really good at holding ground since they are weak.

I think the basic design should look like the Angmar Fortress, but made out of mud brick. Instead of those spikes perhaps the mumak tusks could take their place. The upgrades though I think should be more tent like basically cover it with fur or hide to reduce siege damage and fire. Something like that I think would make more sense when you think of "fortress". The current one you show looks like it involves a lot of metal and wood which isn't easy to find in desert areas, but mud and sand made hard through compacting then drying is something they do have.

Edited by isledebananas, 15 November 2010 - 01:00 AM.

[Lauri]

I'v never seen that lower-right building in BFME1 before.. Looks like EA kit-bashed it from BFME1 into another building in 2 though, so in case I do it, shouldn't be much of a problem

[Nazgûl]

@Bananas... I hear you, and I don't disagree. However, this is about trying to avoid creating a new model, and use what we have at our disposal. Many parts would be reskinned to match better. The corner towers could be sandish stone, etc. Using the Angmar fortress could work indeed, but that would require removal of those gigantic spikes, and preferably change them into tusks indeed. A somewhat bigger task than this (I think), since editing BFME2 and RotWK models is more work than diting BFME1 models (Has to do with textures not being imported).

@Lauri: That's the "church" model. I think it's in BFME1....

[ttandchotmail]

@Bananas... I hear you, and I don't disagree. However, this is about trying to avoid creating a new model, and use what we have at our disposal.

For the future Harad faction, I'm in need of a Harad fortress. Preferably as cool as the Rhûn fortress that TT made. Now while trying to explain the concept to TT I found that it was much harder to explain than the Rhun version. It's also much more complex for TT to model, since these structures contain so many details. And I'd like to use a lot from the existing structures (tents) to make the fortress fit and blend in with the nomadic desert people that Harad has been cast as in SEE. Unfortionately, this would require a lot of tedious modeling for TT, and I feel it might not be worth it as I can't really explain in detail what I envision for them. We'll see what he comes up with... But as a pretty good (to me at least) alternative, I came up with this kitbash of models in WB. Now I just need to find someone to bash them together.

If you recall the Rhun and Rohan forts didn't happen overnight and now it appears as though you have given up over 2.

Much more complex for TT to model because these structures have a lot more detail? More detail? Where?

I'm unsure what exactly you mean by the structures have a lot of detail because I don't see any more detail in these haradrim models than any other factions structures.

For the record I don't find any part of modelling TEDIOUS if I did I wouldn't have been modelling for the last ten years.

Your trying to avoid creating a new model?

But at any rate this was my concept of the Haradrim Fortress/Keep with all 3 expansions.

[Nazgûl]

Sorry, didn't mean to offend... Just thought me might save some work this way. You missunderstood completely... or I didn't make myself clear. Noone doubts you talent TT. It's just hard to explain what I had in mind, and my GUESS is what it would be somewhat tedious trying to replicate what I can't fully explain =p

I'm sure you came up with something cool, unfortionately I can't wiev the video as nothing happens when it loads.

Edited by Nazgûl, 15 November 2010 - 04:16 PM.

[njm1983]

Holy crap! That is the most awesome and unique fortress I've seen. Sorry Naz but we gotta go with this model it's so sick!

[Lauri]

click a few seconds in on the vid, and it'll reload and show (didn't work from start for me either..) And I have to say it looks pretty cool

[Prince of the Dark Forest]

Still doesn't work for me... I wanna see! XD

[drogoth232]

HOLY FREAKING GOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That HAS to be included. It falls on the top of the list of SEE'ish (I know, its like SEE, its like its image). I cant explain it, but it, its.... Unexplainable.....

Just my two cents, but it looks amazing!

[isledebananas]

That kind of stretched hide thing going around the top just under the Mumak skull is great. I had a similar idea in my head to suggest, but couldn't articulate it. My only criticism would be the expansions don't seem to be well integrated with the fortress they just look like they are there next to it not part of it. Those concave things work a lot better than the other two though. Also, I would say the Mumak skull on the top maybe should be replaced with some serpent figure or a banner. Perhaps even left empty to allow a monument later on.

[yams in a can]

Sweet ttc :O.

That so cool and different. I feel that yours absolutely represents Harad.

[Nazgûl]

I think I need to make myself more clear, as I've seem to magage to offend TT...

1) I have no doubt what so ever in TT's talent as a modeler. Especially with "dead" things like structures, objects and his awesome Star Wars work, etc... As we all know and have seen in screens, he has delivered some awesome materials for Rhûn and Rohan - all made from scratch and so far unique to SEE.

2) For the Rhûn and Rohan stuff, it was easier to explain, or "articulate" if you will, as to what I envisioned for them, and in both cases TT made it more than 100% accurate. In this case, it is extremely hard to explain in detail how I'd like the fortress to look. Not cause TT couldnt do it, but mostly cause I can't sit, via MSN, on the other side of the globe, and make TT fully grasp what I'm after. It's not a lack in his ability - it's a limitation in my possibility of communicating the concept ;p

3) There's also the problem of number of polygons in a structure, to avoid too much risc of lagg, and TT's been told he should keep it under a ranther low number. THIS is what makes the modeling of this concept somewhat "hard". Again - not cause he can't do it, but it should be somewhat tedious to produce something so detailed, when you have to keep it within certain amount of polys. With details I mean all the little elements that the Rhun and Rohan fortresses dont have, like logs in different angles, hanging tent cloth, torches, spikes, tusks, etc... The other ones are more symmetrical. This concept is more of a "mess" and that's what I'd like to keep in the final product.

4) To ad to the work load, and to once more relate to the Rhun and Rohan fortresses - all models from BFME2 lose their textures when imported into a 3D modeling client. That's partially why TT made both models from scratch instead of using meshes from the existing BFME2 assets. Then he used the textures and imported and mapped them onto his scratch made models. To do the same for Harad would be rather complicated - not technically perhaps - but in terms of being accurate to the envisioned concept I have Which brings me to the final point...

5) The scratch made Harad fortress displayed by TT on YouTube is awesome indeed! It looks really cool and I admire the piece of art it is, but unfortionately it is a little bit too far from what I envisoned for them. So to avoid having TT spend hours upon hours trying to replicate something that is not articulated well enough from me, I made that simple mish mash (aka kit bash) of a few EA models, into something that with a little reskinning, should look pretty close to what I always envisioned for Harad... always as in ever since I played BFME2 for the first time, 2006. Somewhat hard to let go of such old visualizations But I agree this model is cool though, and it could be used, in another form, as a structure of other sort. Perhaps even a new Mumakil tent...

And again, I'm sorry TT if I offended you, but I'd like to think that you misunderstood

[ttandchotmail]

Ooooookay I was more cofused than offended on your first post but after you third post the balance has definately shifted. The highlighted sentence in the quote below. How is that NOT offensive? How did I misunderstand that?

For the future Harad faction, I'm in need of a Harad fortress. Preferably as cool as the Rhûn fortress that TT made. Now while trying to explain the concept to TT I found that it was much harder to explain than the Rhun version. It's also much more complex for TT to model, since these structures contain so many details. And I'd like to use a lot from the existing structures (tents) to make the fortress fit and blend in with the nomadic desert people that Harad has been cast as in SEE. Unfortionately, this would require a lot of tedious modeling for TT, and I feel it might not be worth it as I can't really explain in detail what I envision for them. We'll see what he comes up with... But as a pretty good (to me at least) alternative, I came up with this kitbash of models in WB. Now I just need to find someone to bash them together.

I can't understand that after only 2 nights of starting to put the model together you would post this. You knew that the Rohan and Rhun fortresses took weeks if not months to do and after only 2 nights starting to put the walls to the fort together you go and post this. How exactly is a model with less than 100 000 000 polygons too complex for me? What DETAILS are you talking about? I can not see the Haradrim buildings having any more detail in them than any other factions buildings.

2) For the Rhûn and Rohan stuff, it was easier to explain, or "articulate" if you will, as to what I envisioned for them, and in both cases TT made it more than 100% accurate. In this case, it is extremely hard to explain in detail how I'd like the fortress to look. Not cause TT couldnt do it, but mostly cause I can't sit, via MSN, on the other side of the globe, and make TT fully grasp what I'm after. It's not a lack in his ability - it's a limitation in my possibility of communicating the concept ;p

Like I said before IT'S ONLY BEEN 2 NIGHTS, probably 30 minutes in total! On the last night you gave me the sketch you made and I looked at it and said no problem and the next day I find this thread with your posts in it.

3) There's also the problem of number of polygons in a structure, to avoid too much risc of lagg, and TT's been told he should keep it under a ranther low number. THIS is what makes the modeling of this concept somewhat "hard". Again - not cause he can't do it, but it should be somewhat tedious to produce something so detailed, when you have to keep it within certain amount of polys. With details I mean all the little elements that the Rhun and Rohan fortresses dont have, like logs in different angles, hanging tent cloth, torches, spikes, tusks, etc... The other ones are more symmetrical. This concept is more of a "mess" and that's what I'd like to keep in the final product.

IT'S ONLY BEEN 2 NIGHTS! I have been told that a fortress model should stay under 5000 polygons ( with ONLY the walls of the fortress having been made in a file the count comes to a little over 5200 polygons ). If you thought this number was a rather low number then why didn't you just say so instead of pointing it out here on the public forums. You knew I had no knowledge of making PC game models before SEE and knew I was only taking the words of others on the forum here.

4) To ad to the work load, and to once more relate to the Rhun and Rohan fortresses - all models from BFME2 lose their textures when imported into a 3D modeling client. That's partially why TT made both models from scratch instead of using meshes from the existing BFME2 assets. Then he used the textures and imported and mapped them onto his scratch made models. To do the same for Harad would be rather complicated - not technically perhaps - but in terms of being accurate to the envisioned concept I have Which brings me to the final point...

What are you talking about!? The reason I created new models was that the Rohan model you supplied was a mess with hundreds of polygons pushed and squeezed into the model where nobody could see them. The Rhun fortress was made because your alterations needed to be made and it was easier to edit parts I had made instead of trying to find and select the parts Digi made. I told you this on both occasions. Models may lose the textures when importing but the UVW coordinates are still there you just need to drop and click the materials back on. The textures had absolutely NOTHING to do with why I created the forts from scratch. Textures are the last thing a modeller looks at. The model is what comes first not the textures.

And again, I'm sorry TT if I offended you, but I'd like to think that you misunderstood

Just for future reference if your going to apologise don't write immidiatley afterwards that the other person misundertood. That is also insulting and therefore not an apology.

Edited by ttandchotmail, 17 November 2010 - 05:06 AM.

[Nazgûl]

Right... I think we should probably stop right here. My point is not getting through and I have clearly stepped on your toes, which was not my intention. I accept the fact that you are pissed at me, and I'm sorry for upsetting you. My point was to avoid having you do things over and over just to "please me". That just doesn't feel right, so I was trying to find a simpler solution instead of having you do "how about this one" over and over again due to me not being able to provide good scetches. It's not a matter of me/us waiting a certain amount of time for a model to be finished, but rather me not wanting you to do more work than needed. I was just trying to save time and effort. I know I wouldnt want to do a lot of work for a project when there's no real build plan other than vague ideas from the initiator. ALso, this concept could be unsed as a blue print for you, if you'd still want to do it, instead of that crappy scetch I sent you.

Anyways, this is getting out of hand and as always I don't want conflicts to escalate. So with your permisson I hope we can use the stuff you already made, and we'll just cancel any further work for the sake of avoiding further unnescessary conflicts. Sorry for this mishap, and thanks for all the work you provided. It's awesome =) If you want us to remove it, we'll do so, in case you want to use your models elsewhere. Just let me know in that case.

I'm closing and moving this topic. If you need to discuss this further, drop me a PM.

[Nazgûl]

*reopened*

 

Note tomyself: Something like this could work too... I defenitely want to go with the arabic theme/style for Harad, so a mosque-ish temple design feels right.

 

[MattTheLegoman]

It would need to keep a similar theme to the nomadic tents we already have for Harad. Although I could see something like that in Umbar perhaps? =D

[sherv]

Nice, but i think tent is cooler