14 replies to this topic

[Emperor of the East]

Hello, all. I decided to make a Tech Tree for a Rhûn faction that could exist in Beta 4.5, taking lore, realism, the movies, and geography into account. The main faction units could all have a different design, and not just different color or substance. This tree is not directed at any official releases, this is merely something that one woud have to code and insert into the 4.5 Beta, and some things come from the beta 4.7 version existing in official releases, but his is only for my copy of 4.5. I am not saying that I will do this to my copy of it either, this is just an If-Then idea.

Rhûn

Heroes
Brodda, a low-ranking Easterling Chieftain - spy for Rhûn
Fuinur, a Black Númenórean who rose to power among the Haradrim - can increase damage done by Haradrim and Corsairs
Várar, the Variag loyalty King of Khand - gives leadership to Variags
Ûvat, the Mahûd Beastmaster of Far Harad - can increase speed of Mahûd and Mûmakil (if Nazgûl is okay with me borrowing the name given on the beta 4.7 to do list)
Castamir XXI, the Corsair Captain Jackson of Umbar - uses fire, poison, and seawater to damage enemies and enforce Corsairs
Alatar, the Blue Wizard of Rhûn and middle-ranked Istari - can forge metal attacks on foes via his magic
Pallando, the Blue Wizard of Harad and lowest of the Istari - can summon organic materials with which to knock down rivals
Khamûl, the Nazgûl and undead unifier of the Easterlings - uses Nazgûl powers including one to summon Easterling Illusions
Indûr, the Nazgûl and undead Mahûd King - uses Nazgûl powers including one to summon Mahûd Illusions
Lorgan, the King of the western steppes and Sea of Rhûn - best hero for the main faction units
Sûladan, the black serpent of Near Harad - best hero for the Harad minifaction units

Units
Easterling Swordsmen - basic infantry, carry steel scimitars and brass shields
Easterling Bowmen - basic archers, carry wax wood composite bows and steel-headed wax wood arows
Easterling Spearmen - basic spearmen, carry long steel-headed wax wood halberds and brass shields
Easterlings with Axes - heavy infantry, carry short steel-headed wax wood halberds using two hands to wield
Easterling Horsemen - heavy cavalry, Spearman-Archers on horseback, brass-scale-clad horses
Easterling Charioteers - elite cavalry, warrior and driver, warrior can be upgraded into swordsman, bowman, spearman, or axeman
Easterling Wain - siege cavalry, driver and four warriors, four-horse wagon, decedents of the Wainriders
Variags of Khand - elite infantry who can toggle between steel-headed axe and ivory composite bow with steel-headed cane arrows, can mount and dismount horses
Axe-men of the Far East - elite infantry with waraxes, wear blood red clothes
Scorpion Siege Bow - Heavy siege weapon, flings solid brass javelin or solid brass nugget the size of a human liver at enemies
Cult Magic Carriers - Battlefield support, uses conjuration, necromancy, and destruction magics against Rhûn's enemies
=====
Haradrim Warriors - basic infanrty, carry obsidian broadswords and bamboo shields
Haradrim Archers - basic archers, carry bamboo composite bows and obsidian-headed bamboo arrows
Haradrim Javeliniers - ranged infantry, carry obsidian-headed bamboo javelins, can be death for enemy cavalry that try to plow them.
Haradrim Horsemen - basic cavalry, Warrior-Archers on wicker-woven-bamboo-clad horses
Mahûd of Far Harad - heavy infantry, half-troll-like, use bone instead of obsidian, can toggle archery and spear-shield combo
Corsair Pillagers - multi-task infantry, can toggle between dual iron daggers and firebombs
Mûmakil - troop transport, can use trampling and tusk weapons to clear paths of enemies
Black Mûmak - heroic troop transport, more effective version of the common Mûmak, only ten at a time

Buildings
Rhûn Wind Mill - Resources, 50 added to population cap each WM
Rhûn Barracks - Trains Easterling foot-fighters
Rhûn Stables - Trains Easterling cavalry
Orocarni Pagoda - Trains Cult Magic Carriers and Axemen of the Far East
Rhûn Armory - Builds Siege Weapons and unit upgrades
Khandian Training Tower - Trains Variags of Khand, can fire arrows at enemies at all levels
Balchoth Yurt - Trains Balchoth units and Wainriders
Rhûnic Defensive Tower - fires arrows at enemies and can hold two hordes
Rhûn Wall Hub - builds walls at 40 resources per wall
Fortress - five times the resources, 100 added to population cap each fortress
=====
Harad Wicker Mill - Resources, 50 added to population cap each HWM
Harad Barracks - Trains Haradrim foot-fighters
Harad Stables - Trains Haradrim cavalry
Corsair Tavern - Trains Corsairs and builds unit upgrades
Mahûd Tent - Trains Mahûd units
Mûmakil Pen - Trains the common Mûmakil
Harad Watchtower - fires arrows at enemies, can hold one horde
Harad Palace - serves as bunker, unlocks Harad heroes for fortress

Expansions
Arrow Tower
Scorpion Siege Bow
House of Shieldmaidens
Wall Hub

Fortress Upgrades
Serrated Ammunition
Valley of Sand
House of Cures
Molten Copper Moat
Molten Zinc Cauldrons
Reinforced Walls
Pen of the Black Mûmaks

Wall Upgrades
Arrow Tower
Siege Bow
Large Gate
Postern Gate
Wall Hub

Unit Upgrades
Serrated Blades
Serrated Arrows
Reinforced Lamellar
Banner Carrier
Flaming Arrows
Serrated Siege Ammo
Poison Blades
Poison Arrows
Tight Wicker-Weaving

One Ring Powers
Tier 1
Vultures - Spy on enemies for a set period of time
Replenish - Heals friendly units, replaces one dead man per horde
Scorched Earth - Bakes an area of terrain into Desert, giving +50% armor and damage bonuses
Tier 2
Summon Variag Mercnearies - summons five hordes mercenary version of the Variag unit, non-obvious difference being in speed and in damage done
Arrow Volley - Fires a fleet of arrows straight downward
Build the War-wagons - increases production in chariots and in wains the way "call the horde" increases orc production
Summon Black Scorpions - summons three swarms of large black scorpions to the target location
Tier 3
Summon Mûmakils - summons two maximum-level common Mûmakils to target location
Blazing Sun - heats up the battlefield, causing enemies to lose speed by 35%
Summon Fire Drakes - summons four maximum-level fire drakes to target location
Tier 4
Sandstrom - absolute mayhem of all-sand disasters in target location
Molten Flood - splashes target area of field with molten brass, burning enemies and slowing them by 60%, but not igniting them.

This I think is something that would work in Beta 4.5. How much effort would something like this require? Would I need to get help from more experienced modders? Please share.....

...edited so that you can understand me...

Edited by Emperor of the East, 25 December 2010 - 05:43 PM.

[yams in a can]

Nazgul already explained that there will be no Nazgul in any other faction except Mordor.

They also have alot of upgrades, which I find unfair. They shouldn't have both an upgraded damage one and a poison one, even if only of them can be equipped. Poison arrows almost make no sense...

I will only support Easterling mages if there are orc mages....

Dragons make no sense for the Easterlings, because they lived in the northern waste. Scatha the worm was from the Grey Mountains. That does not reach the Easterlings. Their is almost no reference of Easterlings on horseback. They have used wains and chariots, but I have not heard of horseback. For that sake alone, they should not have horseback archers at all...

The Balcoth are forever dead. They would not exist as elite, or Tolkien would have mentioned them at Minas Tirith. Only the Easterling Axeman were even at the Siege of Minas Tirith, as I have read. As well, realize that the Wainriders and Balcoth were 2 completely different branches of Easterlings. Either way, they would not have existed at the time of the War of the Ring.

Corsairs were purely pirates. A Corsair Ballistae would not work. They were ship oriented, and do not perform sieges.... The way the corsairs are, is already good. No need to add other Corsair Units. The Variags of Khand would not have been elite. They would be the similar as the Haradrim. They would be cavalry units. Rhun does not seem the type for spies, as they are pretty barbaric...

Easterlings don't need a siege tower either. That would be for masters of siege. That's why they should just have ladders, if needed at all. All the forces need for siege is a Rhun battering ram and catapult.

All in all, in my opnion Easterlings would be the infantry of the faction, and the Haradrim would be the cavalry and archers. Corsairs would be the ships, and harassers, basically inn units. The Khand people would be the tier 2 cavalry(elite).

[KingElessar2384]

Are you sure some of those names are legit? Tolkien only specifically name 2 Nazgul ( WK and Khamul) Indur was a noncanonical name, created by GW;) Also, Brodda and Lorgan(I know Naz is already using this name) lived in the First Age and since this is a movie mod, Naz would probably want people who lived during the Third Age (unless names for these people are undefined or difficult to find, so canonical ones would have to be used). Scatha the Worm would probably have not had an alliance with the Men of the East. Other than that, this is a pretty good list.
Thx

[Nazgûl]

It's always amazing to see how much time players spend making up their own tech trees, considering we have basically everything planned and lined out already...

[Námo]

Are you sure some of those names are legit? Tolkien only specifically name 2 Nazgul (WK and Khamul) Indur was a noncanonical name, created by GW;) Also, Brodda and Lorgan (I know Naz is already using this name) lived in the First Age ...

Correct.

Khamul is the only canonical name for a person from the War of the Ring ('Witchking' is strictly a title and not a proper name).

Like the other wizards, the blue wizards would NOT use their true Valarian/Quenya names in Middle-earth. They can be given more correct names (titles) in Sindarin [I have posted those somewhere in the Lore forum].

All the other names are names of deceased persons; some of them died about 6.500 years before the War of the Ring.

The popular invented name of Sûladan (for the 'Serpent King' or whatever) gives a rather hilarious meaning: as he not of the Corsairs, according to Tolkien linguistics the only possible translation would be 'gambler playing with false aces' (yes, it's true!) ... definitely not the best name for someone supposed to wield the authority of a king.

... since this is a movie mod, Naz would probably want people who lived during the Third Age (unless names for these people are undefined or difficult to find, so canonical ones would have to be used).

It's not a problem to make some authentic names in the form of titles (like the 'witchking') using some of the old Mannish tongues. 3 to 4 for Easterlings proper, eventually one for the Axe-men of the Far East, and one for a Variag hero, if you interpret those as some distant descendants of the Northmen, turned mercenaries for the realm of Khand.

The number of such names using authentic Tolkien linguistics actually depends on the 'composition' of the faction(s), i.e. to what degree they reflect the lore (the languages that Tolkien created reflect certain cultures, so they are sort of bound to certain peoples ... so it would not be proper to use them indiscriminately).

I'll post those names in the Lore forum someday, but if Nazgul wants them, he can just ask; anyway, changing Hero names are just editing a few entries in lotr.str.

------------

P.S. Above reference to possible 'names' (titles) only refers to an Easterling faction. For a Haradic (Khand/Umbar) faction it's much easier, using respectively a-adunaic and b-adunaic, yielding a dozen various titles useful as hero-names.

Edited by Námo, 22 December 2010 - 05:28 PM.

[yams in a can]

There are absolutely no legit Easterling or Rhun people...

Herumor and Fuinur are Black Numenorian Lords that have been said to rise to great power among the Haradrim, but no fate is recorded. Realize that was in the Second Age.

The only legit Harad/Rhun hero that can be put in is Suladan, because he stated to be at the Battle of Pellenor Fields, before Theodan whooped hiis ass!

[Lauri]

Gotta love it when someone is wrong

Sûladan is by no means legit, he's invented by Games Workshop (or they got the name from somewhere else again)

IIRC, Tolkien only ever mentioned that there was a Haradrim Chieftan\Captain\Whatever in the Battle of the Pelennor Fields
No names were given

[Gfire]

I don't remember the exact quote, but that whole part about Theoden and him was fairly vague... I don't think it even confirmed his existence, much less his name.

[Lauri]

It confirmed the existence of a Haradrim chieftan in the Battle, but no names were given (IIRC, no "evil" leaders were given names in that battle, bar Gothmog (who in return weren't given a race))

[KingElessar2384]

I don't remember the exact quote, but that whole part about Theoden and him was fairly vague... I don't think it even confirmed his existence, much less his name.

Suladan is referred as the Black Serpant in the lore. As Theoden is dying, he farewells Merry and says that he has felled the Black Serpant.
P.S.
at Naz's post.
Thx

Edited by KingElessar2384, 22 December 2010 - 06:42 PM.

[Námo]

The relevant quotes from "The Battle of the Pelennor Fields":

Southward beyond the road lay the main force of the Haradrim, and there their horsemen were gathered about the standard of their chieftain ...

"their chieftain": this probably only denotes, that he was chieftain of their horsemen. the term chieftain usually refers to the head of a tribe, and 'Haradrim' or 'Southrons' were just a denominator for all the various peoples and tribes living to the south of Gondor.

... he was filled with a red wrath and shouted aloud, and displaying his standard, black serpent upon Scarlet, he came against the white horse and the green with great press of men ...

"black serpent", not "Black Serpent"! - not a name, but just a reference to the banner, cf.

... Right through the press drove Théoden Thengel's son, and his spear was shivered as he drew down their chieftain. Out swept his sword, and he spurred to the standard, hewed staff and bearer; and the black serpent foundered. ...

This phrase seems to indicate, that the "black serpent" is a reference to the banner-carrier only ... although Théoden's last words could also be a reference to the captain:

"... I go to my fathers. And even in their mighty company I shall not now be ashamed. I felled the black serpent.

So, the name Sûladan is never given in the lore of Tolkien, neither is "Black Serpent" as a name. As far as I remember this also holds true regarding the movie [and please remember, that Peter Jackson in fact made great efforts in order not to stray away from the lore] - Games Workshop did in some cases make such horrible extensions to Tolkiens lore, that they in fact are offending the beautiful works of both professor Tolkien and Peter Jackson; the name Sûladan is one of those cases.

[Emperor of the East]

Nazgul already explained that there will be no Nazgul in any other faction except Mordor.

They also have alot of upgrades, which I find unfair. They shouldn't have both an upgraded damage one and a poison one, even if only of them can be equipped. Poison arrows almost make no sense...

I will only support Easterling mages if there are orc mages....

Dragons make no sense for the Easterlings, because they lived in the northern waste. Scatha the worm was from the Grey Mountains. That does not reach the Easterlings. Their is almost no reference of Easterlings on horseback. They have used wains and chariots, but I have not heard of horseback. For that sake alone, they should not have horseback archers at all...

The Balcoth are forever dead. They would not exist as elite, or Tolkien would have mentioned them at Minas Tirith. Only the Easterling Axeman were even at the Siege of Minas Tirith, as I have read. As well, realize that the Wainriders and Balcoth were 2 completely different branches of Easterlings. Either way, they would not have existed at the time of the War of the Ring.

Corsairs were purely pirates. A Corsair Ballistae would not work. They were ship oriented, and do not perform sieges.... The way the corsairs are, is already good. No need to add other Corsair Units. The Variags of Khand would not have been elite. They would be the similar as the Haradrim. They would be cavalry units. Rhun does not seem the type for spies, as they are pretty barbaric...

Easterlings don't need a siege tower either. That would be for masters of siege. That's why they should just have ladders, if needed at all. All the forces need for siege is a Rhun battering ram and catapult.

All in all, in my opnion Easterlings would be the infantry of the faction, and the Haradrim would be the cavalry and archers. Corsairs would be the ships, and harassers, basically inn units. The Khand people would be the tier 2 cavalry(elite).

I don't think you understood me, because I clearly said that this tech tree was only for my copy of Beta 4.5, and not for any of the official releases. Perhaps I should have put this in the "modding SEE section", so you would understand that this is not directed at everyone, and that this Tech Tree is only for my copy of Beta 4.5

Meanwhile, Tolkien made it clear that the Easterlings have horse-riders, indicated by this passage from Fellowship of the Ring: "and out of the east, men were moving endlessly, swordsmen, spearmen, bowmen upon horses, chariots of chieftains and laden wains; and then again in The Two Towers when he said, "and beside them horsemen riding in may companies [...] these were not men of Gondor, they were men of other race, out of the wide East"

Balchoth as elite? That's the exact opposite of what I put them in there as. I put them in as a primitive and less effective version of the regular Easterlings, making them auxiliaries. As for the Wainriders, the Lore says that their culture survives in the Easterlings, and I already quoted where that info is from.

Easterling Mages existed in Tolkien's works because the two Blue Wizards were said to be founders of "secret cults" and "magic traditions". Orc Mages on the other hand, do appear anywhere in Tolkien's Writings.

The Fire upgrade is so that the Rhun and Harad archers can set things on fire the same way everyone else's archers do: by bombarding with fire arrows. And the serrated stuff is only for Rhun, and the Poison stuff is only for Harad. Both would increase the damage each one does.

I would rather avoid battering rams, because they are slow and can only attack buildings. Catapults are indeed powerful, but their aim is a medium portion off. A Ballista works for Rhun because it has accuracy, it can be used against units and buildings more robustly and more reliably than any catapult, and one can make its ammo out of almost any weapon-making material. And that is pretty much stating that this is the only siege weapon they need.

Brodda being a spy is just a reminder of the fact that he is a low-level functionary among the leaders if Rhun. You can find information on that in the Thain's Book. And only the Balchoth are barbaric; the regular Easterlings are a precision army, as opposed to a brute force army like we see of Mordor.

In order for each race to be limited to one or two troop type(s), every single piece of evidence that Tolkien put out for Rhun and Harad being two independent and well-functioning factions that enjoy working together, would have to be all wrong.

The Variags of Khand would be mercenary units because in the books they are neither Easterlings nor Haradrim, they are allied to both.

And, I highlighted the arguments that make sense in blue, so that you know what kinds of changes I will be making

*proceeds to make the changes necessary*

[yams in a can]

Just because they made magic cults does not mean there are mages. There were many magic cults all over the world at times. The cults the wizards could have been could been to worship the wizards. Tolkien did in fact say that orcs could use magic. They would have been either way, as Orcs were originally Elves far back...

You have got me on the Easterling horse archers.

Balcoth were all gone by the time of the War of the Ring, so they should not be there.

They may have low level people, but that does not mean low level people were spies. They could just be a weak hero.

I actually support the division of Harad and Rhun, but for beta 4.7, I am saying that Easterlings would focus on melee infantry, Haradrim with archers and cavalry. Khand can be inn units with the tier two cavalry .

Wainriders culture would be in the Easterlings culture, but there still would be no wain riders. So, the Easterlings would ride chariots and wains, it seems.

[Námo]

@yams in a can: Tolkien's last and final conclusion concerning the origin of orcs: they were corrupted men, not corrupted elves.

@emperor of the east: SEE actually has a whole forum for personal re-modification of the mod: http://forums.revora...?showforum=2246

[Emperor of the East]

@emperor of the east: SEE actually has a whole forum for personal re-modification of the mod: http://forums.revora...?showforum=2246

I noticed, and I am predicting that this topic might eventually be moved there.