14 replies to this topic

[Emperor of the East]

I had a small what if for the Easterlings, and it is not requesting any changes to SEE.

I have been pondering that they are from the East, not specifically Near or Far. I have noticed that the Easterlings are second only to the Dwarves in technology.

Middle earth's northwest looks a lot like Europe, so the east probably looks like Asia.

That said, maybe the Easterlings had black powder weapons similar to the Ming dynasty arsenal. It didn't include guns, but it did have many creative devices.

I'm just curious about how other people will respond.

EDIT: The arsenal I am talking about consists of Siege cannons with exploding cannonballs, hollow things with black powder inside (I am guessing the sparks generated at impact ignite the powder); Hexagonal baskets with 32 rocket-propelled arrows inside, lit by tying the 32 fuses together at the beginning I would assume; and hand cannons with anywhere between 3 and 10 barrels, arranged into an x-number-sided figure (i.e. 6-barrel would be a hexagon).

That is what I am saying is a possible, but non-canonical, concept. Canonically, the Easterlings already have scimitars, spears/axes (halberds?), composite bows (the bow most people think of when they think "bowmen upon horses"), chariots (chariot scythes?), and the "cults" started by Romestamo and Morinehtar.

Edited by Emperor of the East, 04 August 2011 - 06:36 AM.

[MattTheLegoman]

I respond usually in a negative manner with people trying to say Middle-Earth's cultures are the same as our cultures.

Sure the Easterlings might some similarities with the Chinese/Mongols/Russians/Persians, but they are there own culture, only comparable because of geographical, time period, and the fact that they also 'come from Eastern lands'.

Middle earth's northwest looks a lot like Europe, so the east probably looks like Asia.

never say that again please

Anyway,
There could of been many Dwarves in those eastern parts with contact with the Easterlings as there were 7 fathers of the Dwarves placed in different locations in Middle-Earth. In the West, I gather there could only have been 2 main clans of Dwarves. Sometimes I wonder what a slant-eyed Dwarf would be like and what sort of alliances they would have with the people of Middle-Earth.

That said, maybe the Easterlings had black powder weapons similar to the Ming dynasty arsenal. It didn't include guns, but it did have many creative devices.

This I like. Because the best way we can add more information to the Easterlings from what Tolkien gave us, is to add various parts from many of the cultures we have, don't even need to stick to Asia either. Your idea could be something like 'Dark-fire Magic' or something else, It made me think of the magic bombs from 300 Spartans.

[Arthadan]

In the last Roleplay game (pen and paper, not computer), it was the Stonefoots (one of the Seven Dwarven tribes) which had something similar to black powder. They were the ones living further wast and never leave their mountain (thus their name). Saruman, before settling in Orthanc, went to the east and help them fighting Sauronic forces, learning also their secrets. Later, during the War of the Ring, he use the black powder to make his Orthanc Fire.

I have noticed that the Easterlings are second only to the Dwarves in technology.

Well, Noldor Elves can forge jewells, make magical stones to lit, forge magical weapons, ropes... and for them is normal craft closer to technology than to magic, but the rest ofthe Peoples of Middle-earth can't understand or replicate their craft. They learnt from the very Makers of the World, the Valar andt they are immortal (in a sense). So I'd say they are the most advanced. Then we have the Númenóreans and their offspring, the Dúnedain, who learnt from the Elves of Aman and thus from the Valar.

Remember that in the books and in the movies as well, Easterlings wear bronze armour instead of steel, thus they are technologically inferior to other Mannish Peoples (and thus to Dwarves and Elves).

In late Third Age, I'd say the ranking would be:

- Elves
- Dwarves / Dúnedain
- Rest of Mannish Peoples / Orcs

Edited by Arthadan, 10 April 2011 - 11:20 AM.

[KingElessar2384]

Elvish technology was based on harnessing the power of nature. In Galadriel's case, being one of the Last of the Noldor, her form of technology is considered more advanced compared to a regular Silvan elf.
Also in the west, The Firebeards and the Broadbeams were two dwarven clans in the Blue Mountains. There was also an eighth clan of dwarves: Petty-dwarf (Mim from Children of Hurin) but they were hunted to extinction.

[mike_]

How sure are you that the Rhunic peoples didn't use steel armor overlaid with brass like the Greeks did?

Also, Tolkien pretty much admitted that Middle-Earth was a prehistoric version of Europe. Your arguments are invalid

[Arthadan]

How sure are you that the Rhunic peoples didn't use steel armor overlaid with brass like the Greeks did?

The ancient Greek hoplites armour was made of bronze (see Wikipedia article here). I have checked the books and it's the Haradrim who wore bronze armour, about the Easterlings nothing is said. So, why do you say they are an "advanced peope"?

Also, Tolkien pretty much admitted that Middle-Earth was a prehistoric version of Europe. Your arguments are invalid

No, he didn't. He said:

The theatre of my tale is this earth, the one in which we now live, but the historical period is imaginary.

So, we have a world ruled by the same natural laws but with imaginary creatures... and cultures.

[KingElessar2384]

I think Rhunic armor was made of a compound of Brass and iron. The skill of the East was almost as advanced as Gondor. Rhun was also among the richest countries in Middle-earth with gold, copper, and iron deposits in the mountains. The armor was made with dragon-like designs, which the Easterlings believe would intimidate their foes.

Edited by KingElessar2384, 11 April 2011 - 08:03 PM.

[Elvenlord]

Mike never said they were an advanced people, Arthadan. Don't put words in people's mouths. Also, greek armor evolved, I doubt they were still using bronze later on, like when the Romans came along for example.

That quote does point to it being the same world and land, as in the one we live, but with different peoples. Way to undermine your own argument.

[Arthadan]

I think Rhunic armor was made of a compound of Brass and iron. The skill of the East was almost as advanced as Gondor. Rhun was also among the richest countries in Middle-earth with gold, copper, and iron deposits in the mountains. The armor was made with dragon-like designs, which the Easterlings believe would intimidate their foes.

Since Tolkien did not write about this matter, we can guess as much as we want. You say the are "almost as advanced as Gondor", but there is nothing in the books to support you (and same goes for the metal deposits in Rhûn).

We do know that the most advanced Men were the Númenóreans because they learnt from the Elves, and the Elves from the Valar. On the other hand, the Men of the East never had good relations with the Elves, so they never had access to the "higher knowledge".

However one thing is for sure, the dragon armour is 100% Peter Jackson's and not Tolkien's.

Mike never said they were an advanced people, Arthadan. Don't put words in people's mouths. Also, greek armor evolved, I doubt they were still using bronze later on, like when the Romans came along for example.

Sorry about the cofusion regarding the "advanced people". My point is the Greek never used "steel covered with bronze".

That quote does point to it being the same world and land, as in the one we live, but with different peoples. Way to undermine your own argument.

Not at all! Same world, but not same people. So assumptions about our real world don't apply and we cannot say "Chinese had black powder, so Easterlings should/could have it". Same goes for them having silk and being rich merchants (other than Dorwinion wine, I don't remember any other reference about Easterling goods).

Edited by Arthadan, 11 April 2011 - 09:35 PM.

[Emperor of the East]

Well, the Easterlings did wear brass armor, but the Elves wore brass armor to, and the Mirkwood elves wore only leather armor, and the Lorien Elves only wore a medium amount of brass, but the Easterlings were covered head to knee with brass scales, giving them lighter weight armor with more protection, but no armor on the Easterlings' backs.

So I re-recon that the Easterlings are better at making weapons than the Gondorians but less advanced in armor making. The Easterlings were able to develop the chariot and the halberd, a spear-axe-hook combo. The Dwarves are ahead of all races in terms of armor, they invented chainmail and discovered mithril, which is stronger and lighter weight than steel (gondorians use plate steel). All three I recon were better armored than any Elf culture.

[Elvenlord]

Also, Tolkien pretty much admitted that Middle-Earth was a prehistoric version of Europe. Your arguments are invalid

No, he didn't. He said:

The theatre of my tale is this earth, the one in which we now live, but the historical period is imaginary.

So, we have a world ruled by the same natural laws but with imaginary creatures... and cultures.

I'm talk more about this. The quote completely undermines what you said right before it. The rest is fair enough.

[Lauri]

(gondorians use plate steel)

Source, what? Movies?

[Vortigern]

So I re-reckon that the Easterlings are better at making weapons than the Gondorians but less advanced in armor making. The Easterlings were able to develop the chariot and the halberd, a spear-axe-hook combo. The Dwarves are ahead of all races in terms of armor, they invented chainmail and discovered mithril, which is stronger and lighter than steel (Gondorians use plate steel). All three I reckon were better armored than any Elf culture.

Small point, but chariots are actually less advanced heavy support than cavalry. Historically, the people who used chariots were always outdone by the people with cavalry. Cavalry were more manoeuvrable, faster, better for skirmishing and much more versatile (remember, chariots are only any use on open, flat ground). Their only disadvantage was that chariots could carry someone whose only purpose was to carry a bow or spears, but a good cavalry skirmisher could do just as good a job. Anyway, the point is, using chariots is probably a sign of a less advanced culture, one that doesn't understand horse-breeding and has thus been unable to breed horses strong enough to carry a man. Bear in mind that humans have had domesticated animals and made attempts at breeding since the stone age.

By the way, 'reckon' is when you have an opinion on something, 'recon' is short for reconnaissance. Spelling is important.

[Arthadan]

Well, the Easterlings did wear brass armor, but the Elves wore brass armor to, and the Mirkwood elves wore only leather armor, and the Lorien Elves only wore a medium amount of brass, but the Easterlings were covered head to knee with brass scales, giving them lighter weight armor with more protection, but no armor on the Easterlings' backs.

Please give a single Tolkien quote at least for the Easterling "covered head to knee with brass scales".

Edited by Arthadan, 12 April 2011 - 09:53 PM.

[Emperor of the East]

Of course, to get us back on topic, when I say "ming dynasty weapons", I mean siege cannons with hollow, gunpowder-filled rounds, long baskets with 32 arrows that each have a firecracker tied to it, and 2 inch thick wooden shafts with 3, 4, 5, or even up to 10 gun barrels glued to the end. Very archaic, with everything needing a hand held match. Nothing self-igniting.

I am asking what if the Easterlings used these weapons in their arsenal? What we can draw from the books says that black powder never existed to start with (in fact, this powder is never mentioned).

Edited by Emperor of the East, 16 October 2011 - 09:37 PM.