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US Debt Battle


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#21 Námo

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Posted 04 August 2011 - 10:41 PM

Market Bloodbath, "Happy Birthday Mr. President" Edition:

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#22 Námo

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Posted 05 August 2011 - 07:13 PM

Even with the numbers on job-creation in July released today (+117k, but most likely to be revised downwards soon); the current employment recession is by far the worst recession since WWII in percentage terms:

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#23 duke_Qa

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Posted 05 August 2011 - 10:55 PM

I too feel like they need to stop acting like 5 year olds in the sandbox. For goodness' sake, we're all citizens of the same nation. They might be able to spin some kind of golden parachute into a bill somehow but at the end of the day their prosperity is directly proportional to the nation's. If America goes down the shitter, we all do. Except for maybe the very very top CEOs and such. I hope.


Which is why I personally think the internet soon has to start a "kill the rich" meme of sorts. Nothing super-communistic, but a virtual hive-mind Damocles sword of karma :sleep:

If you as a rich bastard go around spending your money on nothing but increasing your personal wealth, stealing from less fortunate men and spitting on those that have allowed you to ascend so far on the economic ladder: You should fear for your life, even if its just a bunch of anonymous people online doing their best to scare the shit out of you and make your life a living hell.


Anyway, the stock markets have been flailing a bit the last two days, seems to be some sort of after-shock of the US debt deal popping out of the picture and the mediocre situation we got running in the EU. Hopefully it won't fall much more after the weekend.

Edited by duke_Qa, 05 August 2011 - 10:58 PM.

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#24 Beowulf

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Posted 06 August 2011 - 12:00 AM

There's nothing wrong with being rich. It's perfectly legal to horde your money. As I noted at PPM in a similar discussion, the rich account for one percent of the US population and that one percent alone pays twenty perfect of the tax revenue, while 47 percent of US households contribute nothing. No, Duke, the rich don't ruin the country; the people not paying taxes ruin the country. Shit like that is why I'd like to see a hybrid flat/progressive tax system implemented in the US. The more you make, the more you pay, but instead of taxing so high, drop it down to bottom being 10 percent, then twelve, fourteen, fifteen and the top paying seventeen percent. Then drop all that special bullshit; you pay X amount based on income. PERIOD. No fuss, no muss, no lost revenue and everyone contributes fairly.

But what the fuck do I know?

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#25 Elvenlord

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Posted 06 August 2011 - 12:09 AM

But don't the top 1% account for 40% of the wealth? So shouldn't they pay 40% of the tax revenue?

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#26 Beowulf

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Posted 06 August 2011 - 12:22 AM

Why should they? The other 99 percent don't pay the other 80 percent of the taxes. Why is there so much hate towards the wealthy? Because they have that wealth? I'll give you that they're often dicks, greedy or a hellish mix of both, but they do contribute a great amount of tax revenue. If one percent carries twenty percent, they're already contributing their share. What we need is everyone contributing and fewer ridiculous tax breaks. Do you know how much tax revenue is lost in deductions and credits every year? It's in the ballpark of a trillion. That's a shitload of fucking green that could be used to improve the country.

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#27 Elvenlord

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Posted 06 August 2011 - 12:25 AM

I agree with you deductions and such should be taking out, but I'm not understanding your logic. If the top pay 20% of the revenue, how can everyone else not pay 80%? And explain to me why the wealthy should only pay half percentage wise when that means everyone else has to make up that difference?

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#28 Beowulf

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Posted 06 August 2011 - 01:26 AM

If you read my earlier post, I noted that 47 percent of American households do not pay taxes. So no, 99 percent doesn't make up the other 80 percent. Knowing that, only 52 percent of households pay the other 80 percent. Then add one more percent on the top and you get the rest of the revenue. So, given that, why should only 53 percent of the US pay the tax revenue? The people harming the country more are those paying no taxes at all. The upper one percent is doing fine and so are the 52 percent of middle class households. It's that 47 percent that needs to be paying instead of just reaping the benefits of the mess that is supposed to be a tax system.

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#29 Elvenlord

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Posted 06 August 2011 - 01:51 AM

How much of that 47% are people who do not have money to pay taxes? Especially with our current unemployment rate? I agree 47% is high, but come on. There's always going to be people who do not have the money for taxes. No, the problem here is things like GE not paying taxes yet getting a huge return.

I mean really. The Bush tax cuts cost us trillions, yet you think the some lower class people not paying taxes is the problem?

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#30 Beowulf

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Posted 06 August 2011 - 03:15 AM

How much of that 47% are people who do not have money to pay taxes? Especially with our current unemployment rate? I agree 47% is high, but come on. There's always going to be people who do not have the money for taxes. No, the problem here is things like GE not paying taxes yet getting a huge return.

Exactly, how many of that 47 percent doesn't have enough to actually foot their tax bill? I'm fairly certain that of that 47 percent of US households, many of them are capable of paying some amount of taxes. There will always be those too destitute to be able to contribute comfortably, but I seriously doubt it's 47 percent of US households. And those not paying will invariably hurt since it's a constant. However, I will agree that companies not paying out taxes by dodging the system costs revenue, but it's only one part of the overall problem.

I mean really. The Bush tax cuts cost us trillions, yet you think the some lower class people not paying taxes is the problem?

Not the problem, but A problem. Yes, those not paying any taxes at all are having a negative effect, regardless of social standing. But here, you're stigmatizing the rich again as if taxing them more is the best solution. IT ISN'T and never will be. You're just sticking more of a burden on another 'class' for stupid reasons, all the while forgetting exactly how much they contribute.

Edited by Beowulf, 06 August 2011 - 03:15 AM.

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#31 Elvenlord

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Posted 06 August 2011 - 03:38 AM

Oh yes, another burden while corporate america is sitting on a record amount of cash. Right. I'm not saying tax them more than everyone else, but rather pay the same rate as everyone else instead of less. I mean really. Getting away with owning 40% of everything but only paying 20% of the total.

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#32 Námo

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Posted 06 August 2011 - 05:47 AM

Some perspective on the rich and the poor:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkebmhTQN-4


Poor relative to whom? ... please stop the whining. The US as a nation has become poorer, and it's official as of today:

AAA > AA+


And BTW, blaming it all on Bush version 2.0 doesn't help, as long as you have an even more incompetent Bush version 3.0 in the White House.
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#33 Beowulf

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Posted 06 August 2011 - 06:32 AM

Oh yes, another burden while corporate america is sitting on a record amount of cash. Right. I'm not saying tax them more than everyone else, but rather pay the same rate as everyone else instead of less. I mean really. Getting away with owning 40% of everything but only paying 20% of the total.

You realize that the more you make, the more you pay. The upper one percent is in the 35 percent tax bracket, which is more than anyone else pays (or doesn't pay). Like I said before, there's more to the revenue problems than just a company dodging taxes or households paying nothing. It's a complicated issue and just raising taxes or taxing another class isn't going to solve anything faster. The more taxes you implement, the more breaks that are invented, making shit that much worse.

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#34 Námo

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Posted 06 August 2011 - 07:15 AM

... I personally think the internet soon has to start a "kill the rich" meme of sorts. Nothing super-communistic, but ...

If you as a rich bastard go around spending your money on nothing but increasing your personal wealth, stealing from less fortunate men and spitting on those that have allowed you to ascend so far on the economic ladder: You should fear for your life, even if its just a bunch of anonymous people online doing their best to scare the shit out of you and make your life a living hell.

Oh, that meme already exists in abundance among many "progressive" leftists, just take a trip to Nancy Pelosi's San Fransisco ... Brave New World of the progressive left, and the most bankrupt state in the US.
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#35 duke_Qa

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Posted 06 August 2011 - 11:00 AM

I don't really think its envy that drives these left-wing people to attack the rich. It is the fading smoke that the corrupt and incompetent have been cloaking themselves with, that leaves them open to criticism. I have nothing against rich hard working people. I do however have something against those that earns hundreds of millions for doing nothing and creating nothing. Shuffling money around for the sake of gaining more money is not improving upon anything in this world.

And I don't see how some pictures of "average" San Fransisco residents doing their thing is the core reason California is wobbling. California has like 37 million living in it, San Fransisco has around 800k inhabitants, about 2-3% of the total population. If anything California is probably a good example of a high-power economic state that have been affected by the recession as much as any other American state, and one with enough muscle to get out of it again. Also don't forget Arnold and republican governance, although in Californian terms they were probably moderate.

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#36 Allathar

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Posted 06 August 2011 - 04:49 PM

Appearantly, China is finally getting involved for real in the issue. Seems they want the US to take harsh measures to at least prevent the problem from getting worse.

Personally, I think this is the best that can happen - China will want to have both the Euro and Dollar stable, and isn't afraid to throw a lot of yen away to do this. Even better, if China really takes action and invests in both US and Eurozone funds (Greece, Portugal), they can keep both the yen low (good for their exports), AND getting both a political and economical foundation in both zones.
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#37 Námo

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Posted 06 August 2011 - 06:43 PM

If you as a rich bastard go around ... stealing from less fortunate men and spitting on those that have allowed you to ascend so far on the economic ladder: You should fear for your life ...

I guess your wishes might come true soon; there are other people who want to see some heads rolling, too.

The first official demand for a change as a result of the S&P downgrade has come in; Indiana State Treasurer Richard Mourdock has just demanded the head of Tim Geithner, the most incompetent and tax evading Treasury Secretary in US history, on a silver platter:

"President Obama should fire U.S. Secretary of the Treasury Tim Geithner over the debt downgrade. If Obama won't remove him, then the US Senate should withdraw its consent of Geithner's appointment to U.S. Treasury because someone in the White House needs to be held responsible for this disaster."


Well, I do agree with you, if you're referring to people like George Soros and other Wall Street vultures, and all their puppets of corrupt politicians, RINO's from both parties interested only in pork; financial analyst Max Kaiser nails them in his usual fashion, in this interview to RT given before the downgrade:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=poHeeM5-sZI


Edited by Námo, 06 August 2011 - 07:30 PM.

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#38 duke_Qa

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Posted 06 August 2011 - 08:18 PM

I rarely see the point in asking for a governmental head on a platter if he was not directly involved in some politically unforgivable act. The economic situation is a culture problem, an attitude problem, that has been allowed to run for too long. If you need heads, it should be those that have been the figureheads of such pyramid-scheme philosofies for the last two decades. Not some dude that just got a job in the administration 2-3 years ago.

Also, this last crisis seems to be much more about the differing ideologies of Republicans(+teapartiers) vs democrats(+moderates), where ideology has gone over to bigotry. Its hard to put the blame on someone there, but I would have loved it if there was a grassroot-friendly political law that allowed you to put your senator or congressman up on a distrust-vote before election day and getting him kicked out before his time. I'm sure it would have been used well these last months

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#39 Námo

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Posted 06 August 2011 - 10:04 PM

If you need heads, it should be those that have been the figureheads of such pyramid-scheme philosofies for the last two decades. Not some dude that just got a job in the administration 2-3 years ago.

All should be held responsible, the present administration too, including the POTUS himself.
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#40 Námo

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Posted 06 August 2011 - 10:31 PM

China will want to have both the Euro and Dollar stable, and isn't afraid to throw a lot of yen away to do this.

... yuan, not yen, is the unit of the Chinese Renminbi; I quess the Chinese have some problems of their own, don't count on them:

As for those saying China will gladly step in and fund a $5 trillion EFSF shortfall, they may want to read the following article from Reuters:

Italian Economy Minister Giulio Tremonti said on Thursday that Asian investors are reluctant to buy Italian bonds because it sees they are not being bought by the European Central Bank.
[...]
When you talk to Asia they say: "We don't understand what Europe is," he continued. "The second point is that they say 'if your central bank doesn't buy your bonds, why should we buy them'"?


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