6 replies to this topic

[njm1983]

I found this Map online, It appears to combine recent versions of middle earth and Beleriand, in a way that I think is pretty accurate. I wanted to ask if it is accurate?

Ive been racking my brain as to the locations of Belegost and Nogrod during the 3rd age for some time, whether they were sunk in the gulf of Lhun or not. this map atleast confirms they both should exist in some state during the 3rd age.

[mike_]

Very cool map. IIRC those old Dwarf cities weren't abandoned in the Second and Third Ages, but had diminished greatly from their prosperous state in the First Age. I want to say that Thorin and the survivors of Erebor lived in or near them in the Blue Mountains...

[MattTheLegoman]

Beleriand looks very large in this map. I have seen another that has the 'extension' quite small.

[Naugrim.]

Thorin did live in the Blue Mountains, however he calls his halls "poor lodgings in exile", so he probably didn't live in either of those great dwarven cities. Even if they were old and fallen apart, he probably would have had a higher opinion of them.

[_Haldir_]

Yeah, Beleriand in that map is quite out of proportion i think. Although it's not in English, this is probably the best map i've seen of the whole of Arda.

As for Nogrod and Belegost, i don't believe it's ever been stated in the canon whether or not they survived the sinking of Beleriand, or where they were exactly located. Though personally, i'd say that if they hadn't sunk with Beleriand, that the breaking and shifting of the Blue Mountains would have atleast collapsed them or buried them beneath the mountains. Otherwise, there's no real reason why the Dwarves wouldn't have attempted to return there sometime during the Second/Third Age, rather than flee to Khazad-dum as they did. And as Naugrim mentioned, it's unlikely that the halls in the Blue Mountains inhabited by Thorin would have been either Nogrod or Belegost.

[njm1983]

Yeah your map is much closer to what I had thought it should look like. Appears more accurate etc, Though this increases the likely hood that the cities survived. They are much farther north now. Even with the Dwarves leaving to migrate to Moria its never stated that all the dwarves just left. Just that some did.

As for thorin, Did he stay in the north or south? Its a valid question since he mentions coal mining, theres no mention of mining in the northern part but rather its in the south.

[Námo]

I wanted to ask if it is accurate?

Ive been racking my brain as to the locations of Belegost and Nogrod during the 3rd age for some time, whether they were sunk in the gulf of Lhun or not.

The only reliable way of aligning the map of Beleriand (First Age) with that of Middle-earth (third Age) is this:

Locate The Hill of Himring (First Age) and the island rock of Himling (Third Age) - those are identical geographic locations.

Measure the distance from Himring to the north-south axis of the Blue Mountains ... then apply this scale to the map of Beleriand.

As basis for determining the locations in the Third Age, use Tolkien's socalled 'First Map' as this is the most authentic, and basis for all later maps produced by his son and others. The relevant part of Middle-earth can be seen here:

Please note, that the course of the river Lhun was altered later, one of its sources originating about in the middle of the part of Ered Luin north of the Gulf of Lune, like shown on this map by Karen Wynn Fonstad:



Without going into details, you'll then be able to approximately locate the two renowned Dwarven stronholds on the Third Age map, as follows:

Nogrod from the middle of the northern range of Ered Luin to the northernmost part.

Belegost in the range of Ered Luin south of the Gulf of Lune. Tolkien has shown Belegost on his 'First Map' ;-)

These locations are clearly mentioned in the text of The Silmarillion ... Cristopher Tolkien didn't get his map of Beleriand quite right on concerning the two Dwarves strongholds - a fact he has confirmed later, in History of Middle-earth.

Edited by Námo, 28 December 2012 - 08:05 PM.