39 replies to this topic

[Mathijs]

This is a topic about T3A. There are other topics in other areas that are about Revora as a whole. 

[DIGI_Byte]

well what can you do with T3A?
keep it focused on a dead engine, or archive it and hope for another LOTR game that you can mod?

it comes down to what is T3A, is it BFME?
but BFME is dead.
it started when EA took down the servers

[Mathijs]

You don't have to do anything with T3A that involves changing what T3A is. There are other, far better suited areas on this site. Revora is made up of divisions, each with a niche. This division is, as you asked, dedicated to modding BFME. It is not yet dead, BFME modding is not yet dead (as evidenced by the couple of active mods still on here and other websites). This topic was meant for suggestions within T3A as a BFME modding community to improve its functionality and revive parts of it. Why should we, according to your suggestion, turn T3A into another attempt at indie/engine creation when that is exactly what we are doing in the Unity section elsewhere on this network? Please, do not drag this thread so far off-topic.

Edited by Mathijs, 22 February 2013 - 02:59 AM.

[DIGI_Byte]

I wasn't the one dragging it off subject
Revora is doing things and unity is one start and will hopefully be a pillar of Revora

but the topic was about T3A and what its about, I was speaking broadly because T3A is a major part of Revora, and your right, T3A is about modding BFME, but is that all?
in respects BFME is a dead game, sure there are some active mods but they are closer to pet projects the anything else and that's fine.
but don't base your entire belief that BFME modding is still alive and active because a few hundred people are around in T3A and the german site etc

I want you to visualize how many BFME mods are still active and compare them to other games, on ModDB... 33. that's it and half of them arn't active
the issue isnt how can we revive BFME modding, but what does T3A need?

to stick to the topic, what would T3A need? is it lacking in anything? it has a lot of BFME tutorials on its archives that pretty much cover a lot of things
only thing it lacks is probably how to strip a game and code factions from scratch, I personally tried to do a BFME game and lacking a competent coder I went to the tutorials and couldn't find anything for a beginner

EG: I asked for some coding advice/lessons to understand what does what and so on, and I was told to go and learn myself, well that's fine and dandy for some people but its not really helpful, even the beginners that get helped in T3A had more understanding to coding then myself

EDIT: with that in mind, I want to ask what will T3A stand for in another 10 years?
another site dedicated to modding a 'classic'? or will it branch out to modding other LOTR games?


but back on topic again, does T3A need any improvements? not really other then a few ground base tutorials for complete new comers

Edited by DIGI_Byte, 22 February 2013 - 07:51 AM.

[Radspakr Wolfbane]

DIGI there's a whole bunch of beginner tutorials there I think there is even an article that has all of them linked.

You can go from complete novice to advanced coder just on what is listed on the main page.

People are spoiled for choice few modding communities have that many tutorials covering that many areas.

T3A was built not just the mods we hosted but an active community that often wrote tutorials.

Our approach has always been to help beginners help themselves so we've always stopped short at doing their work for them.

Everyone here learned what learned more or less from scratch some of us learned before we even had the article system as it is now back when there were only a handful of basic tutorials.

 

 Warner Bros don't do modding I can't think of any of their games that actually support it in fact they close down mods where EA never did.

We'll never be able to support a LOTR game like that again unless the licence goes to a third party.

BFME modding still has life and though teams are often quiet they are still working.

 

The fact that the BFME series is no longer being sold is a problem but not a killer.

People still come to the series because they are good games there are still BFME online players, still modders and still mappers.

 

As for other LOTR games that can be modded so far there's a small amount of hack/modding for War of the Ring and that's about it.

The Two Towers and ROTK games haven't been made modable, neither has WITN, Aragorn's Quest, LOTR Tactics, LOTRO, LOTR Conquest and it doesn't look likely the 2 new games will be either.

 

I've got some changes in mind for the T3A site that will eventually be added that will improve usability for the site, some clean up for the forums planned.

DIGI you know the ideas I have for Revora or at least some of them they are being discussed but that's a topic for another place.

 

Short answer we need new blood, more activity for the community as a whole (just like the entirety of the modding community) and more new mods.

That's not something we can create but it's something we can encourage.

[DIGI_Byte]

DIGI there's a whole bunch of beginner tutorials there I think there is even an article that has all of them linked.
You can go from complete novice to advanced coder just on what is listed on the main page.
People are spoiled for choice few modding communities have that many tutorials covering that many areas.
T3A was built not just the mods we hosted but an active community that often wrote tutorials.
Our approach has always been to help beginners help themselves so we've always stopped short at doing their work for them.
Everyone here learned what learned more or less from scratch some of us learned before we even had the article system as it is now back when there were only a handful of basic tutorials.

This is what I'm talking about, I went to the archives to find these magical tutorials and I found 2 that are somewhat new
now what you said contradicts itself you cant say there is a bunch of beginner tutorials then boast that everyone else learned from scratch so any new comers should learn from scratch the same way

ofcourse you wont be doing the work for the newcomers but all the tutorials under coding and INI dont stick out as a beginner apart from 2
http://www.the3rdage...=&order=&type=1
how is a newcomer supposed to know what Gamedata.ini is and other things of the sort?

now if I'im completely blind to them and I cant find them on the list, then maybe that's room for improvement because it really should be organized in stages
but that attitude that other people should learn the hard way like you and many others did isn't the right attitude to have

the truth is apart from the very few who are willing to learn the code from scratch already have, new blood or people who are completely dumbstruck confused when coding blind are more likely to turn away, and if they ask on the forums, they either get told to look it up or its so quiet that they give up
I learned that from my first hand experience, at best I set up factions and stripped the game to its core


its also important to probably make a guide that distinguishes between modding for BFME 1 vs 2 so those coding 2 can go to BFME1's tutorials confident they will work and knowing what wont work
to bring in new blood you do have to spoon feed to a degree else they will walk away not knowing what to do

at the end of the day people are after guides that can guide them from complete start to finish in detail, and if that's spoon feeding then I encourage it
they are supposed to be guides and the trouble for anyone, is getting started.

so rolling in that excuse "Everyone here learned what learned more or less from scratch" is not the right attitude

Edited by DIGI_Byte, 22 February 2013 - 06:27 PM.

[Ridder Geel]

I suppose that we might have to put aside some time to review all the tutorials and make sure they are in the correct category...

Well what kind of tutorial do you suggest? Everyone who comes to modding BFME wants to do something different... -.-' (I say its a good thing, but then is it expected that we write a tutorial for every possible modification to the game?)

[DIGI_Byte]

its the core basics that everyone here takes for granted and already 'assumes' you know
simple things,

Beginner - code - 0 - Understand Modding BFME       (teaches core basics like file names, uses etc how to find this and that)
Beginner - code - 1 - Clearing the game - Optional     (resetting the game to its core, stripping all assets, factions and units to its basic 2 factions)
Beginner - code - 2 - Your first custom Unit
Beginner - code - 3 - Your first custom Building
Beginner - code - 4 - Your first Hero
Beginner - code - 5 - Your first custom Spell

etc etc

I was reading this PDF
http://www.the3rdage...tem-744?addview
its fucking genius and Pretty close to what we need to be focusing on
I didn't have this when i was doing BFME, if i did, WOTG might actually be alive

Edited by DIGI_Byte, 22 February 2013 - 06:50 PM.

[Ridder Geel]

I see... We have things similar to that.. but perhaps not setup in a way that new people would realize that that's the best way to start...

[Radspakr Wolfbane]

Some of that is where my plans for site changes come in it will just take me a while to familiarise myself with the site's code.

[DIGI_Byte]

When going over the tutorials, it should be important to outline BFME vs BFME2 when doing anything
most people would choose BFME2, but BFME1 would probably be the primary focus as a lot is cross compatible

[Radspakr Wolfbane]

Most code based tutorials work with both and all tutorials indicate which game is supported and often if alternative codes are needed they are added to the article.

 

The reason we don't spoonfeed new members is because if they are just given the answers there's no incentive for them to learn anything else.

We want people to keep coming back and learn more and improve if someone isn't able to learn the basics then they aren't going to be much of a modder.

SAGE coding is pretty easy to learn but it does take longer than other languages to learn because it's not a markup language like HTML or XML and not a scripting language like LUA,AS or C.

It can take a few months to really familiarise yourself with all the different code modules by giving all the answers beginners learn nothing.

[Ridder Geel]

True i suppose, but perhaps the articles are no clear to the new members, as in which ones they should start with to begin with modding BFME, that might be why some give up before really even trying.

On another note, I'm working on a WIKI with all the BFME II modules, it shows what each of the modules contains, and later will explain how they work

[DIGI_Byte]

True i suppose, but perhaps the articles are no clear to the new members, as in which ones they should start with to begin with modding BFME, that might be why some give up before really even trying.

On another note, I'm working on a WIKI with all the BFME II modules, it shows what each of the modules contains, and later will explain how they work

That sounds Delicious
a Wiki might not be a bad idea either, a more global format then the current setup?
but more importantly it leaves room for improvement, your making me want to start coding for BFME2 again

[Ridder Geel]

Well the wiki is not going to be a replacement for the tutorials obviously, it's more a easy "to the point" reference for when you are coding. I discussed with Phil what would be the best way to present my research on those modules, and we concluded that T3A's site was not the best way to present it, so Phil set up a T3A wiki, which I'm filling with information

So yes i suppose it can be considered a more global format.

At the moment I believe that only me and Phil can edit the pages, but when it goes public we might give other people the ability to edit the pages, that all depends on how complete I manage to get it by myself, since it is a whole load of work...

[Radspakr Wolfbane]

Can you or Phil give me access to it as well I can probably add things to it.

[Ridder Geel]

Well you would need to get an account in it I think..

But sure I'll PM the link to it to you, and then we can discuss what you may possibly want to add

Perhaps you know specific BFME 1 stuff, since I'm currently focused on BFME 2/ROTWK.

[DIGI_Byte]

and i could test it out from a new comers perspective since i never got to learning it

[Ridder Geel]

Hehe, Ok, well I'll let you know when it's really ready for the public, right now it more or less a dump place of all the modules with their parameters

[zezkersar]

You make it sound like a giant blob of information is a bad thing! We have ctrl+f for a reason xD