115 replies to this topic

[Radspakr Wolfbane]

It's because they're all still recovering from their sex change operations. 

 

 

Aren't we all?

[Beowulf]

At least Revora has aged beyond argument, now it's just cynical and apathetic. There was a time when there'd have been a raging debate about this... Ash would've popped in to enlighten us with his sarcasm, Fenring would've declared himself a furry transgender paedophile and Caspa would've removed Revora as a search result on Google.

Hey now. I'm two of those things still. I tend to just give a shit less about actually saying it these days. I think you're all well aware that Fen = furry. No sense in repeating it over and over. I'm not trans but I don't really feel much like a man either. I fall somewhere in between the two. However, I don't give much of a damn about labels so I just go with what feels right.

 

Anyhow, this is one of those things that people need to get over. Gender and sex are not the same thing. Gender is mental and it's an identity. And sex? Well, that's basically just the bits between one's legs. It's not a difficult concept honestly. If someone doesn't feel right in their body, who are we to say they're wrong? Gender identity is a huge part of life and if you have a poor self-image and all that, hello depression, anxiety and a plethora of other shit that nobody should have to deal with. So... when it comes to trans issues, I'm all for them having the same goddamn rights that I get and all for them being able to express their own identity without some prejudicial turd giving them a hard time for being different.

[Radspakr Wolfbane]

We had transgenders pretty much covered here by Segwayrulz so the reason we don't judge or care is probably because we've had all kinds here.

[Pasidon]

Him and his boyfriend seem to be peachy, last time I checked.  

[duke_Qa]

I foresee a future of transhuman proportions. Mankind will arise to conquer the universe when our mortal shells will be cast away. Singularity-technology will assimilate our consciousnesses into a hive-mind and we will have no secrets or flaws to hold us down...

[re-reads thread name] Ohh. trans-gender. Well never mind then.

 

But considering the liberalization of sex in our culture the last century, I'm pretty sure we will see real-life furries/whatnot once the cybernetics allows us to create fully functioning synthetic bodies. Or maybe stem-cell 3d-printed flesh grafted to our bodies once we learn how to make nerves regrow.

But I do wonder, since homosexuality has been around for centuries, has there been a lot of transsexuals throughout history? I guess if we go to other cultures than the western we might have an easier time finding examples. Western/Abrahamic religions? not so much...(Also a fun fact from the viking age laws around punishment for homosexuality. The pitcher was not guilty by default, as he was not the one who brought shame to man's image by taking it like a woman. )

 

But beyond that, gender/sex are two things. I'll have to say humans as a whole are a bunch of badly programmed critters though, but we can't blame anyone but genetics for messing us up really. A more interesting question would be, if you could by medicine change someone's perception of their gender, would it be abusive to use it as treatment?

Edited by duke_Qa, 09 August 2013 - 01:06 PM.

[Beowulf]

Technically you can alter one's gender medicinally. It's called hormone replacement therapy and they use it for people who have gender identity issues. Now, if you mean change it so that they stop thinking something is wrong, then yes, that would be ethically wrong without consent of the person you're treating. If someone specifically asks for X treatment, are we supposed to deny them? I suppose even if someone does ask, it can still be ethically wrong to provide a certain treatment. Complex shit, really.

 

Also, I wouldn't blame genetics entirely. Most psych issues develop from a person's experiences rather than simply through some faulty gene. Though, I have seen some research indicating that people with schizophrenia and autism have malformed DNA strands in a few places, which can be passed along. Weird shit honestly.

Edited by Beowulf, 10 August 2013 - 07:14 AM.

[Pasidon]

Uhh... isn't sex just a synonym of gender, and vice-versa?  

 

SCIENCE FUN TIME!

Pasidon cleans this debate up

 

Speaking of definition, I think if you follow all of these traits, then you're a male.  And the same goes for females.  Unless you're uber religious and believe the scientific definition is bogus.  If you're under that classification, I strongly advise you not bring that in any form of debate and keep it to yourself.  Sorry... that's just smart.  

 

If your body follows the book on your chosen gender's physiology, then there is little to claim they have retained their predesignated gender.  But those who follow the surgeries today do not change every necessary aspect for this definition to take hold.  It's mainly a crude elaboration of what reproductive organs a body contains, and I doubt any host undergoing a typical surgery has completely removed all traces of their previous reproductive systems.  The womb being a major component.  So by all current definition, strictly, one would most likely be a hermaphrodite, which is an organism that contains both male and female reproductive organs.   One can argue that the very DNA and tissue of the individual must also be anatomically correct, but I believe the classification of gender solely relies on reproductive organs.  Which, to date, I do not believe any human has artificially mimicked their opposing gender's reproductive system to meet any standard.  That's why that female who had a sex change operation to be male became pregnant in Oregon, or why males who become females do not have the means to naturally produce offspring.  

 

I believe there needs to be official classifications of genders based on a more liberal caste system.  Your gender should remain what it was at birth, unless a natural hermaphrodite is later altered to a singular, clear sex.  To clear up this nonsense, one who undergoes an artificial sex change should be tagged under the term 'pseudo'.  For example, a female who has their reproductive organs changed into male would then be a pseudo-male.  That is a safe system to use until science has advanced so far, the very fabric of an individual can be altered.  Even then the system may still be valid.  

 

But Pasidon... that hurt's people's emotional state since they don't want to be labeled anything but what their chosen gender is!  Too bad.  Science cares naught.

[Irenë Hawnetyne]

I believe there needs to be official classifications of genders based on a more liberal caste system.  Your gender should remain what it was at birth, unless a natural hermaphrodite is later altered to a singular, clear sex.  To clear up this nonsense, one who undergoes an artificial sex change should be tagged under the term 'pseudo'.  For example, a female who has their reproductive organs changed into male would then be a pseudo-male.  That is a safe system to use until science has advanced so far, the very fabric of an individual can be altered.  Even then the system may still be valid.  

 

Why? Some refer to themselves for clarification as transwomen (MtF) or transmen (FtM), but most prefer to be referred to as their chosen gender, and though you have a scientific point, it makes no difference to their being referred to as, say a transgirl or a girl. So, really, classification to your downstairs and child-bearing capabilities is rather insensitive and unnecessary, even until the point at which they are operated on for other issues. It makes no difference other than to offend them.

[Pasidon]

That's the fun part, Ren.  The scientific point of view is the only rational view (sorry, Jesus).  And if you're a reproductive Frankenstein who is insulted or disagrees with my methodology, I win.  I like winning.  You can scratch my eye holes out with farts about how you're a man trapped in a woman's body, or a newly converted woman as much as you like... emotional who-ha is no match for Robert Hooke and his team of super scientists.  ... All dead, but still victorious over sensitive nancies.

[Irenë Hawnetyne]

I'll try not to get personal about this. The scientific view for you is not the social view. My point is that, it doesn't matter how you classify people, because it makes no difference to anything aside from their ego.

[Pasidon]

Social view?  Who cares what people think?  They're the idiots who made this an issue in the first place.

[Irenë Hawnetyne]

Maybe the people often being alienated for it care. And they might not be making a big deal out of it.

[Mathijs]

Uhh... isn't sex just a synonym of gender, and vice-versa?  

Sex is biologically predetermined by chromosomes at conception. Gender is the cultural perception of what it means to be a man or a woman. So no, they're not synonyms.

[DIGI_Byte]

Transgender is the state of one's gender identity (self-identification as woman, man, neither or both
As it says "self-identification" is the primary focus of this.

it comes down to people who feel at 'heart' they are one gender or another. some people with more 'unhinged' grips on reality seem to feel they are an animal, like a fox, cat or dog but that is a whole other thing

Transgender is focused on the Gender, IE Male, female, both, or neither and it has been linked to hormone levels and other imbalances of the body and mind, similar to masculine/feminine personality traits and sexuality preferences as it all falls under the same area.


Basically, if you feel this way about yourself, then good for you. just don't hit on me or make me feel uncomfortable

Also, avoid surgery for your own good, financially and medically it is a nightmare but do what you wanna do.

 

Edited by DIGI_Byte, 10 August 2013 - 01:32 PM.

[DIGI_Byte]

Now this...
http://www.forandaga...ange_Operation#
is a controversial topic

side A, if you are mentally dilusional you shouldn't get surgery because you're clearly not in the right mind
Side B, if you want to get something changed, why can't you do it if its only to express yourself
age old topic of Mental Wellness Vs Personal Expression
that old topic can go into body mutilation, self harm, body modification, assisted suicide and 'legal' euthanasia

[Phil]

Practical question: Should there be extra restrooms for those that don't fit in either female or male?

[Mathijs]

I'd say that as long as you look like the symbols presented on the restroom door, you're good to go. 

[Beowulf]

Practical question: Should there be extra restrooms for those that don't fit in either female or male?

No. All we need is unisex and then it's a "one size fits all" as it were.

[Pasidon]

Get rid of restrooms.  Disgusting inventions...

[Irenë Hawnetyne]

I agree with Mathijs, but I feel for the androgynous getting funny looks no matter where they go.