12 replies to this topic

[LusiGoosi]

Well as we all know the Red Alert series and of course Mental Omega takes place in a world that Albert Einstein killed Adolf Hitler in 1924. The story has a lot of black spots and many variables. So this thread is about discussing the grey areas and how it could effect the story of Mental Omega. For examples of what could be discussed, did Franco take over in Spain? What is the effect of fascist Italy on the EA, should North and south Korea be nations. What changed to allow Russia to have the ability to attack Europe.  So on and so forth. I hope that we can all have a intelligent discussion and try not to be too political. 

[someonebutnoone]

Wonder why Hatsune Miku (Vocaloid) and Yuno Gasai (Mirai Nikki) exist in billboards in MO?
Wonder why there are just some units that doesn't seem to fit with the current timeline of 1982?

Maybe it has something to do with the Allies' repeated tampering of time. The Allies have been acting like they're above the law of sciences, continuing with FutureTech started.
Every good and bad stuff in every period of time has been gathered up and thrown into the mix known as the present MO timeline,since time is practically messed up here.


(The FutureTech Corporation / Syndicate lives and breaths this very idea that they have learned to what laymen, normal Joes, and tropers call as "bending the laws of phyisics, chemistry, reality and all that's in it")
"We are going to make volatile sciences that will burn those goddamn laws of physics down. When physics give you lemons, don't make lemonade! Make 'em rue the day they gave you laws and limits that halt humanity's technological progress!"
C. Johnson ,m"Thinking with Wormholes"

[Divine]

Note: the following is my headcanon, based on the Red Alert Universe, real life history, and some logical thinking.

 

About the would be nazis: some of them (like Goebbels)  likely have joined underground communist movements in Germany. This would mean that they were hunted down and imprisoned / executed eventualy. The rest most likely formed a far-right wing movement, but without a charismatic leader like Hitler, they never won elections, however, they might had a few seats in the Reichstag. The Weimar Republic was not a strong state, as while Nazi Germany nearly destroyed the Soviet Union, aided by the British and US, in the Red Alert universe the opposite happened. The fact that in game the Germans have the Weimar Republic's flag suggests that they abandoned the old imperial symbols completely. I find it starange that the Anschluss didn't happen in the Red Alert universe.

 

About the fascists: Mussolini was enough of an idiot to attack Greece, and the colonies of GB in Africa. They were defeated in 6 months, Mussolini and the leading fascists were imprisoned, and the kingdom was restored.

 

Without the nazies to intervent in the Spanish civil war, possibly the rest of Europe did so. They were probably happier with Franco than with a communist state in their back.

 

At the end of Act 1, Korea is divided. The fact that the Chinese built a thick line of stationary defenses suggests that they have long term plans, and are probably forming a puppet-state up north. So yes, North and South Korea were separated.

 

About Russia, nothing changed. Even IRL, they prepared to a full scale war against the West from 1928, but Hitler was faster and attacked first. After GWW2, Yuri and the PsiCorps division have weakened the Allies' influence in Russia, and hunted down Allied intelligence operatives in Asia. This, combined with the overhelming industrial power of the USSR, was enough to prepare for a war in a few months. In real life, experiments of weaponising potential psychic abilities were conducted in the USSR. With Yuri as the "advisor" of Premier Romanov, such experiments probably got more funding, and attention, which eventualy led to sucess.

 

East Europe: As you can see on a map, by the time of GWW2, Slovakia, and the Chech Republic were separated... somehow. Without nazi Germany to separate them, the reason was most likely a civil war. There is something common in the Polish and the Hungarian people: we do not like commies. A revolution is inevitable (in RA1, the Polish already had one). By the way: without nazies and soviet occupation for 50 years, Hungary likely remained a kingdom, with a governor leading it. By the time of Act 1, the original governor, Miklós Horthy, would likely died of old age, or resigned. If this was the case, his son would be the new governor. At the time of the Soviet invasion, he was either captured and imprisoned, or fled to west. As the governor is a nationalist, and no revision of the Trianon Treaty happened (again, becasue there were no nazies), the situation between Romania and Hungary was probably as tense as ever, even before the war. Romania changed sides soon after the red army crossed its borders, and fought alongside the Soviets (no offense here, but a real life reference). 

[X1Destroy]

The only question I'm having is........How the hell did the Chinese communists defeat the nationalists and took control of the nation completely?

Without Japan attacking China, it should have been the opposite. The nationalists were strong enough to crush the reds completely.

Edited by X1Destroy, 29 December 2013 - 12:52 PM.

[someonebutnoone]

The only question I'm having is........How the hell did the Chinese communists defeat the nationalists and took control of the nation completely?
Without Japan attacking China, it should have been the opposite. The nationalists were strong enough to crush the reds completely.

What mission is this?

I think I know why. Maybe they did defeat the reds once, but eventually backed out. Since Russia would most likely target nationalist-controlled China with the MIDAS if the Blue Chinese ever ruled the nation. The resulting explosion would be worsened with the number of nuclear reactors in Red China itself, turning China into a desolate wasteland that is neither ruled by nationalists nor communists. Since the nationalists also care about their own nation, the best choice for them is to give China to the reds, and move to Taiwan and neighboring islands and merge with the Pacific Front.
(P.S. Headcanon: The alliance of Russia and China were never strong to begin with, since each has their own agenda. China only allied itself with Russia because of Mao Zedong. Now Mao is assassinated by Tanya in-game, China was replaced by some generals that want the whole world to tremble before them.)

[Solais]

I think it was mentioned in the campaign that there was something between China and Japan, China helping the voting of Japan getting independence from the US. It is probable that Japan originally helped Red China to take over, and maybe that's why the American Crusade happened against Japan.

[WhiteDragon25]

For the Nazis thing, I quote myself from another thread:

 

 

So, I was looking through the MO Scrapbook Thread, and looking at the old Nazi crap there, I was struck by an idea! No, not any sort of Nazi faction crap, silly!   More like a funny little easter egg sort of thing:

 

We all know what happened to Hitler in the Red Alert universe (paradoxed out of existence by a time-traveling Einstein in 1924), but whatever happened to the Nazi Party itself? Well, after Hitler dissappeared under mysterious circumstances after leaving prison, the Nazi Party was left rudderless, and the brief popularity they had thanks to Mein Kampf evaporated soon after due to no followup by Hitler. Shrinking rapidly, all they had left was a few dozen members centered in Munich.

 

With Germany democratized and its economy stabilized, the remaining Nazis were left to stew in their own patheticness, meeting every week at the Bürgerbräukeller Beer Hall, the site of the failed Beer Hall Putsch, to bitch and moan and complain and generally be the racist redneck hicks that we know of Neo-Nazis today.

 

Why do I bring this up? Simple: have a campaign mission or skirmish map take place in Munich, and as an easter egg, have the Beer Hall somewhere on the map, with a few old, fat Nazi civilians walking around outside it, along with a tattered old Nazi banner! Then we can have the pleasure of running them over with Soviet Tanks and blowing up the Beer Hall with Einstein's Prism Tanks! 

 

It would be a hilarious little easter egg, and doesn't break the Red Alert canon in any way.

 

Now, as for everything else:

 

Fascist Italy was screwed without the existence of the Nazis to prop them up, and Mussolini, being the dumbass that he was, was stupid enough to attempt to invade Greece, Ethiopia, and Libya, along with British-controlled Egypt. The Euro Alliance would've had him thrown out of Greece, Ethiopia would've handed his ass to him just like in real life, and the British would've destroyed him easily before he even crossed the Libyan-Eygptian border. After such a string of embarrassing military defeats, the people of Rome would overthrow him and restore control to the monarchy.

 

The Spanish Civil War is a bit trickier to analyse: there were two sides to the conflict - the Nationalists, supported by the OTL Nazis and Italians, and the Republicans, supported by various foreign volunteers, the Soviet Union, Mexico, and surprisingly France. In the RA-verse, with the Nazis being non-existant and the Italians being useless, the Nationalists should likely have lost the war. However, the Soviet support given to the Republican side was a controversial and contensious issue internationally-speaking, as it was feared that the Soviets would subvert the movement to communist control. The Republican faction itself was full of competing interests, ranging from true republican loyalists to the aforementioned communists to liberal democrats to even radical anarchists. As one can guess, plenty of infighting occurred (in fact this was one of the reasons the Nationalists won the civil war in the OTL).

 

The end result of the RA Spanish Civil War, therefore, would've lead to France switching sides and Great Britain joining in on the Nationalist side to balance out against the Communists. It's unlikely that Franco would've risen to power just as in OTL, but it's still possible. If Franco does still become Spanish dictator, he'll have to toe the line with the rest of the Euro Alliance, rather than staying neutral between the OTL Allies and Nazis.

 

Eastern Europe and the Balkans are a clusterfuck, so I have no idea what might happen instead. Other than RA!Soviet brutality, that is.

 

As for the Pacific: the Empire of Japan would've still gone on the warpath with the United States, regardless of whether the Nazis existed or not. In fact, I find it likely that the reason the Americans were not involved with most of RA was because of the fact that they were still busy dealing with Imperial Japan. It was only when they finished with them that American and UN support started coming towards the Euro Alliance's way.

 

The issue with the Chinese Civil War can be explained by the aforementioned Pacific War; Japan was still merrily raping and pillaging its way across Manchuria and Korea, and the Chinese Nationalists and Communists would've been fighting Japan as well as fighting each other. Soviet support would've been given to the Communists in an attempt to gain a friendly ally, while the Nationalists would've been given support by the United States in order to both bleed the Japanese and to prevent a Communist-controlled China. Of course, in OTL the Chinese Communists were far better organized and led than the Nationalists were, and won. I think the same outcome would happen here.

 

Korea still became split in the RA timeline, but I don't know how to explain how that happened well enough to be satisfying.

[someonebutnoone]

@Solais Kim Il-Sung, remember?
That guy decided to assimiliate ROK into te DPRK, with the help of China and Russia

[crystala]

The only question I'm having is........How the hell did the Chinese communists defeat the nationalists and took control of the nation completely?

Without Japan attacking China, it should have been the opposite. The nationalists were strong enough to crush the reds completely.

 

Without Nazi Germany, Japanese will still invade China, they have been targeting China for too long.

 

What's more, as a Chinese, AFAIK, KMT(nationalists) in real life were really making shit to the country.

 

The following things happened in real life.

 

First, KMT never gained control of the whole country. When ROC was still on mainland, there were warlords everywhere, and there was battle between central government and the warlords. What KMT had was just nominal loyalty.

 

Second, the KMT government never really cared about farmers, the only thing in their head were capitalists in big cities. During the 27-year ROC era, there were average two years of famine in three years, and about 200 million people died of starving. So its natural that the farmers, who made up 80-90% of popularity, chose to follow CCP(not CCCP).

 

Third, it seemed that the commanders of KMT doesn't know how to command. Before the total invasion of Japan, when the red was still in the southeast hills, KMT launched 5 Encirclement Campaign with great advantages(against an army that didn't have a rifle for every soldier), and the first 4 failed. The success of the 5th time mainly dues to a "leader" from Soviet and a "military advisor" from Germany. They took over command and made foolish decision... That's why reds had to march north, to the province that KMT cannot control.

 

Finally, during the civil war from 45' to 50', KMT lost 8 million soldiers, only 1.71 million were casualties. The rest were POWs, surrenderers, and "traitors". They joined Chinese army in the following war in Korea against UN army.

 

So IMO, even without Japanese invasion, CCP would still drive KMT to the sea.

Edited by crystala, 30 December 2013 - 02:53 AM.

[LusiGoosi]

I have lots of people I want to comment towards, but well I’m not sure how to multi quote. So I will put the name I’m replying to then reply!

 

Divine- I think you are partly right about Germany, however until Hitler and the NSDAP to power the communist party was the third party even after the beer hall putsch of 1923 which weakened them a lot the communist are3 too big of a faction to go underground, I think Goebbels would probably be a minor politician along with many NSDAP members, we might see a more divided in Weimer republic. I think even a divided Germany on the political level still would through off the treaty of Versailles in time.  Though by how quickly Russia moved through in the first game it might have been a long wait.

As for Mussolini, yeah that seems about right, Spanish civil war I’ll talk about hat in a bit.  

As for Russia preparing for war against the hole of the west in 1928, that in my opinion is partly true. Russia was as always afraid of border incursions and always has been. They had wants for a warm water port, but here ambitions did not go to strike the whole of the west.  That being said for the game twist a few things and it certainly works.

I agree with a lot of your thoughts they make sense. J

 

Solias- one problem with your idea of Japan helping Red china being that in the 1920s Japan arrested many socialists and communists. Japan really did not support those ideals. Interesting idea though. Not trying to crush it but it might be a problem with it.

 

White Dragon- I really like your ideas of what the outcome would be for the Spanish civil war. I think Franco might have one even without support as he had a bulk of the best Spanish troops under his command.  That and the republic side was divided.  It could be argued many ways…I think you got it about right. I won’t argue any different.

Yet again your idea of why the reds are in charge of china makes some sense. I would argue that with all of Americas industry being pushed against japan and in support of China well the war against Japan would be shorter, might end up that the US would not have the atom bomb forcing an actual invasion, yet that is just flavor.  The thing is with most of Russia might being pushed into Europe. Stalin who really did not like Mao and only supported them because of the communist name. Might lessen support, might not as Europe is also fighting Japan. More support might go to the nationalists. We could argue that after so many losses in the invasion of Japan American goes back to isolationism and is rocketed back out do to the red scare brought on by the war in Europe and the fall of china.  That being said the KmT or nationalist were not very popular support or none. In time china would overthrow them or the government would be forced to change.  I can see a “red” china, but if it would come sooner or later can’t say.  

 

Someonebutnoone- That guy while would be alive,However  the DPRK only existed because during the talk at Yalta…It think it was Yalta. Anyhow at the talk it was agreed the North half of Korea would be under soviet “Russian” occupation and that they would create the government there.  So yeah, how north got divided from south without Russia joining the fight against japan. *shrug* and with a how things went it still took till 1949 for "Red" China to win.  That is what I’m thinking. So I have no good explanation why it is divided. Just my thoughts

 

Crystala- You bring up some good points, I’ll have to read into it as it is not really my area of expertise. I took up European studies over Asian know them a bit better.  I will certainly read into it.  My only thought is, would a DPRK exist for those men to support? I’m sure if it did though they would.

[crystala]

Hmm. In reality, the DPKR Communist Party was formed with the help of Soviet when they try to influence Korea, but it soon disappeared under Japanese control. It reformed when Soviet enter Korea after WW2.

 

MAYBE in MO timeline, the DPRK was formed with the help of Soviet after the failure of Japanese total invasion against China, when Allied did the same in the south. But after Soviet lost the war against Allied, they lost the power to keep enough strength in Siberia. That means PRC has already formed before Soviet stop supporting DPRK, and the only choice for its leader is to turn to China. So when thinking about China-DPRK relationship in MO3, maybe can see it as Soviet-DPRK relationship during the cold war.

 

And you're right, PRC has never been a REAL friend of Soviet, even before the battle of Damansky Island(Treasure Island/ Chen-Pao Island).

 

And of course, there are only my opinion, and there are possibly mistakes.

Edited by crystala, 30 December 2013 - 07:58 AM.

[LusiGoosi]

Yeah, Problem with History is every nation has a unique twist on what happened and on occasion totally different stories. I'm going to do a lot more reading to figure out things.  Also what might happen after the second great war. I wonder.

[Bobby-Wan Kenobi]

East Europe: As you can see on a map, by the time of GWW2, Slovakia, and the Chech Republic were separated... somehow. Without nazi Germany to separate them, the reason was most likely a civil war. 

I don't think you are right about Czechoslovakia. In 1939 Germany took rest of the Czech Republic, and Slovakia decleared its own fascist almost "puppet" state. Because Germany would give them territories which were previously taken by Hungary. After the war, they joined again to avoid paying reparations (short version). And on 1.1.1993 countries peacefully separated. We Czechs don't hate Slovaks that much to start a civil war with them. I guess peacefull separation was a reason here as well. The countries will have their own goverments, but still stand almost united if it was needed. Countries were separated almost after Soviet Union collapsed, but in RA it happened sooner. I don't understand why Czechoslovakia separated at all.