49 replies to this topic

[Sûlherokhh]

I'm thinking like this:

Instead of producing a unit like 'E_TIE_Fighter_x2_Squardron'

you actually produce a unit like 'E_TIE_Fighter_x2_Squardron_In_Transport'.

 

The 'Transport' is just a variant of, for example, an Action IV Transport, that spawns this single squardron.

That particular Transport would have to have the cost and buildtime of the TIE squadron.

Caveat: As long as the Transport survives, so does the whole squadron. If it is destroyed, so is the whole squadron (after the battle).

[megabalta]

This could solve the problem of transporting hyperdriveless ships, but how do you make the transports disappear when a carrier is present? If they are present in a battle it would be really easy to find and destroy them, thus causing serious damage, whereas destroying a carrier capital ship is a hard job. And it would bring us back to the original problem: if fighters are destroyed, it's ok, no problem, they'll respawn for free, if transport is destroyed say byebye to fighters.

What I would suggest is to wholly eliminate in-battle-fighter-spawning, and make fighters/bombers/transports/utils separate units like rebel fighters in vanilla EAW, giving them more importance. Now this last part is actually implemented in PR 1.2, but why would someone build a fighter squadron for money, when you can have infinite fighter squadrons as long as the carrier survives.

The modification would basically give transportation capable carriers to protect and transport (so you only use what you need) squadrons in battle, and transport them in galaxy map. Now this last part is the problem. Seems there is no way to link ships in fleets.

Edited by megabalta, 13 January 2014 - 03:39 PM.

[a.fake.name]

Idea: make all cap ships with a compliment transports as well, that way you can 'land' your snubcraft, and launch them as desired.
 

[Sûlherokhh]

Like in Land Battles, you'd need to load the complement at the beginning of a battle. If the garrison function works in space, that is.

[megabalta]

Problem is I have not seen anything like starting a battle with a transport full with units in EAW or FOC or in mods. So I have no idea how to do it. If someone could do it, it would solve the hall complement problem. If garrison slots could be customized to recieve only one kind of unit, it would be even better. This would mean that at the start of the battle each capital ship would be automaticly loaded with available fighter/bomber/other crafts. Plus this way hyperdriveless ships could be made unavailable, hence the game would simulate larger ships carrier roles better (so no problem if on galaxymap ships aren't linked, because players could not hyperdrive in hyperdriveless ships without carrier into battle anyway).

 

Do you mean garrison as transport ability or like land building garrison (like barracks)?

[Sûlherokhh]

Like bunkers, AT-ATs and A5s.

[megabalta]

I see, well yes that would be a start. But it does not solve the problem of ties without hyperdrive. 

The question remains: how do you tell the game to spawn transports packed with other units?

[a.fake.name]

Like in Land Battles, you'd need to load the complement at the beginning of a battle. If the garrison function works in space, that is.

 

Have the ship use the currently used mechanic to spawn the craft.
They can then be docked or used as desired.

[megabalta]

Thus the infinite free fighter respawn for carriers between battles would stay, meaning fighter squadron tactics, production and research is not essential. So basically nothing would change in gameplay.

[a.fake.name]

Thus the infinite free fighter respawn for carriers between battles would stay, meaning fighter squadron tactics, production and research is not essential. So basically nothing would change in gameplay.

 

Um, how would that change nothing.

Lets say you have an ISD.
That iSD will launch a few squadrons of  snubcraft of minimal use (shuttles/transports),

Currently, once launched (in a random order) they tend to be slow as fuck, often slower than the carrier.

If you could dock them in the carrier, you could then move the carrier to the engagement zone on the map and THEN re-launch them.

[megabalta]

Well ok, space battle gameplay would change. Point given.
I refine, galactic gameplay would be unchanged.

[a.fake.name]

I'm not saying it would be, just that it's better to take what you can get than hold out for perfection.

[megabalta]

A couple of ideas for tactical battles, some are for a more tactical gameplay some just cosmetic.

Space Battle

garrison/transport ability to capitals, no transport spawn, instead player must build empty transports / land units (which in space are stormtrooper transports, lambda shuttles, lander shuttles), this way slow/unusable transport problems and land complement in capitals problems are solved

dedicated invasion force carriers /imperial modular taskforce cruiser, rebel bulk cruiser/

no damage control when ships health bar in red

cruiser or bigger ship explosion /new huge explosion particles/, 20% chance of area damage (mod zann self destruct ability)

ship death clones? (I don’t see them, or is it just my computer?)

spawn space debris after capital ship death

retreat to hyperspace, uncontrollable ships moving in one direction instead of staying in one place

random rebel ship skins for variety (color squadrons, ragtag fleet)

canon blaster/laser colors: most -red, imperial navy-green, rebel clone trooper-blueishpurple, ion-blue, mass/disruptor-yellow

new laser defense particle (quad laser cannon fire)

new laser hull hit, conc. missile, proton torpedo explosion particles

blue advanced missile/torpedo? (still a tiefighter fan)

turbolaser flak explosions if reaching max range (ref: animated clone wars series, group steiner mod) in gameplay – more hit chance against snubcraft at longer range

 

Land Battle

 

Battalion unit simulation system (simulate large scale planetary land battles with smaller skirmishes, mixes unit types - more tactics, more wookiepediacanon/realistic/logical/balanced; eliminates problems of small landing zone unit caps) for example: stormtrooper line battalion instead of stormtrooper platoon

 

rewrite land unit names on galaxy map (adjust unit price tag to unit size – more expensive land units):

normal/elite/special forces infantry – battalion (simulated by a platoon/squad/person in battle)

vehicles – squadron (simulated by a balanced number of vehicles)

every battalion is made of mixed units (ref: group steiner mod) (more use of various unit types, no more useless army platoons, no need to deploy useless speederbike unit for 1 unitcappoint to scout enemy)

1 battalion = 4 companies = 4x4 platoons = 4x4x4 squad, simulate 1 battalion with 1 platoon = 4 squads in land battles

 

line battalion (normal/elite) 1x major (commander, minor 2star hero bonuses) 3x standard squads (9 blaster troopers), 1x heavy weapons squad (2 heavy repeating blaster trooper, 2 plex troopers, 1 ion cannon trooper, 4 troopers for 2 e-web teams)

assault battalion (elite)  1x major, 1x assault squad (8 blaster troopers, 1 heavy repeating blaster trooper), 2x heavy weapons squads, 1x scout squad (2 speeder bikes, 3 teams of 2 scout/sniper troopers (deploy sniper ability))

special missions battalion (elite) 1x major, 1x standard squad, 2x scout squad, 1x specops squad (could be infiltrators, jumptroopers and whatnot)

repulsorlift battalion (normal) 1x major, 1x command repulsorlift vehicle, 2x standard squads (9 blaster troopers), 2 speederbikes, 2 light repulsorlift vehicles, 6 repulsorlift tanks

vehicle squadrons: a balanced number of vehicles

This way a landing zone unit cap of 3 would be enough to field a variety of units, instead of 6 ATATs or T4Bs.

 

Buildings

regimental hq /garrisons: 4 normal line battalions, 1 squadron of speederbikes, buildable units: normal line battalion, imp.int.agent/rebel spy, defensive building/

academy /garrisons: 1 elite line battalion, buildable units: elite line battalion, elite assault battalion, special missions battalion, buildable only on special planets/

cloning facility /garrisons: 1 elite line battalion (stormtrooper/rebel clone trooper mk1), buildable units: elite line battalion, elite assault battalion, special missions battalion, buildable only on special planets/

repulsorlift factory /garrisons: none, buildable units: repulsorlift battalion, various vehicle squadrons (LAAT should be buildable too in a more AA vulnerable form)/

various factories /garrisons: none (no more infinite t4bs in land battles), droid factory on special planets for battledroid, researched dark troopers etc. production/

mining operation /one per planet with planetary bonuses or penalties/

ground sensor array /only radar dots, no FOW removal/

usual defensive buildings

usual special buildings on some planets

 

veteran infantry battalions as minor hero units (f.e.: commander bly+line battalion)

more infantry only passable terrain and shortcuts to maps, so players must use otherwise slow and weak infantry

infantry cover system /more infantry covers like bunkers, bunker health +++/

unit skin changes per planet type (stormtrooper – swamptrooper - snowtrooper etc, ranger camo, vehicle camo?)

clone units: empire – stormtrooper, rebel – clone trooper mk1

plex damage against vehicles +++, new plex graphics /straight rockets, white smoke/

orbital bombardment graphic renewal (battlefronts of war mod) + friendly fire

mod references: not to compare, just meaning the idea is possible and tested

Edited by megabalta, 17 January 2014 - 10:09 PM.

[evilbobthebob]

Okay time for another point-by-point run through!

Space:

Garrisons do not work in space. Land forces already spawn in appropriate transport craft if in space.

May be possible with scripting, otherwise unlikely (damage control has been HEAVILY nerfed in the latest version and is proportional to crew size)

Requires art work, I might do a scaling pass on the existing explosions. Explosion damage would be interesting but might vape squadrons too easily.

Death clones have not been made for any ship because we don't have the time

Space debris spawn is another interesting idea, should be possible

Not sure what you mean about the hyperspace retreat stuff...not much we can do about it anyway

Random skins are difficult and add to potential galactic lag

Blaster colours are going to stay as they are, players can mod them to canon if they want.

Laser defense are not particles and can not really be edited

Again more art work. If you want to learn the particle editor and do all that go ahead

I think some of our missiles are blue

More explosions == less performance

 

 

Land

The limit mainly arises with map size and scale which in PR is currently equivalent to ~1km x ~1km for our standard custom map size. Further limits arise from the max 10 land slots in galactic mode (cannot be changed)

 

Battalions are unlikely to turn up for the above reasons. Not an awful idea though. I'm considering suggesting more varied squad compositions, especially for the Rebels (e.g. attached anti-vehicle or marksmen for specforce platoons)

Performance will still be an issue with lots of units because the game engine is poorly optimised in some cases and maps aren't big enough without rescaling all the units (not gonna happen!)

 

Buildings

Mostly obsolete since the battalion stuff isn't going to happen (though it's not a terrible idea)

 

 

Many infantry heros now have accompanying squads of appropriate troopers

I try to make maps with infantry only areas where I can

We have garrisonable civilian structures on most maps now

Unit skins require art, but we want to do this

Clones are available on some planets. Again we need art for other skins.

Rebel vanguards are pretty good. I don't think they need a buff.

[megabalta]

Well I'm still trying to mod starships to garrison snubcraft, you never know...

 

Hyperspace retreat as they don't just stand there if you press retreat, they actually move in some way.

Flak explosions do not cause performance issues (at least I didn't got any on my low end laptop).

 

Hmm, this battalion system would not really get more units on the map, it's just more unit variety. A platoon (which simulates a battalion) is still 4 squads, vehicles still come in small packages (10 or less per unit). Regimental hq (which would basically be another name barracks) garrisons 16 squads, but they could spawn like barracks spawn units in PR1.2. it's just players would not get an infinite number of spawning squads for 300 credits, they'd get 16 squads for a price of 4 battalions (+building). So you don't need larger maps or higher unit caps. And if you take a planet with a battalion (at least on paper) is a better feeling then with a freakin platoon.

 

Max 10 building land slots are an overkill. I've not imagined more buildings or unit types as in PR1.2. (ok sensor array is +1)

Never liked rebel vanguards, 9 plex/squad is just funny, I read they were invented by the gamedesigners to counter superior imp vehicles. So build like 30 platoons of them and win. Again it gives a zerg gameplay experience. Land unit system in a hall is very basic, some units are totally useless, and never seen in battle, because they are not worth the unit cap points. This way most of the units would be utilized, thus creating a more interesting gameplay.

 

Imperial clones are stormtroopers, in PR1.2, they are separate units, and it would be interesting to have mk1 clone troopers for rebels, it's not really canon (well it is with camino rebellion), but logically possible.

 

I'd be glad to do some art.

[evilbobthebob]

Space garrisons have been tried by a lot of people and never worked, just letting you know.

 

You can move units before retreating

Lots of explosions will kill performance eventually.

 

So you're saying it's literally just a name change? Infinite garrisons are there to simulate planet-wide production.

 

I meant land unit slots. Max buildings is 8.

Well the Vanguards are a canon Rebel unit type. In PR they come in full platoons. They are very hard hitting but they take a while to train and cost a lot relative to other infantry units.

 

Not all stormtroopers are clones.

 

Well if you want to create us a bunch of decently scaled explosion effects that'd be great! We need them at each class scale from Freighter up to Dreadnaught.

[megabalta]

Oh, I see. It's probably the game does not recognize snubcraft categories as it does with infantry.

Yeah, but if I hit retreat it's like: -captain hull is 30%, we're loosing weapon control! -ok retreat, calculate hyperspace coordinates! -ayay skippa! duuuuuuhhhhh. (drooling)...

 

One must try, cause people love explosions (or I don't know maybe it's just me). Luckily hardware is advancing as we speak.

 

Nope, it's a namechange and a unit composition change. Although it's not a unit cap or size change.

 

Yeah well planet size production is not really a factor in a battle now is it. -Look here they come! Lots of em! -No problem, I just train some stormtroopers til they get here!

Well ok I see, it's a game. But how is that balance if one side has a limited supply and limited unit cap, and the other has limitless units, defensive buildings, planetary bonus. It's not even as in a normal rts where you have a base for each size, it's just crazy. The Naboo map was the best, as imperium you've been instantly overrun by jarjarbings-iz and t4bs after touchdown (good thing you had a deathstar).

Nothing is expensive in EAW or FOC, you can literally buy the galaxy on the 30th week. In my opinion it was a poorly balanced game with no real challange, and I'm no desert fox. Yeah I understand that 8 year old lil Jimmy wanted to play it, but come on... Ok I stopped bitchin.

 

Not all stormtroopers are clones, but all clones are stormtroopers (well at least the imperial ones... except for Palpatine).

 

Please PM me what you need exactly.

Edited by megabalta, 17 January 2014 - 11:29 PM.

[evilbobthebob]

Yeah it's not perfect but you have to order your ships to a safe location before escape. Those hyperspace calculations take time!

 

PM sent. I have also suggested your space debris idea to the rest of the team to get their thoughts. It's a good idea, worthy of some thought.

[Kitkun]

Lots of explosions will kill performance eventually.

Tactical performance hasn't ever been an issue. And modern hardware is an order of magnitude more powerful now when it comes to graphics.

 

 

Yeah well planet size production is not really a factor in a battle now is it. -Look here they come! Lots of em! -No problem, I just train some stormtroopers til they get here!

Well ok I see, it's a game. But how is that balance if one side has a limited supply and limited unit cap, and the other has limitless units, defensive buildings, planetary bonus. It's not even as in a normal rts where you have a base for each size, it's just crazy. The Naboo map was the best, as imperium you've been instantly overrun by jarjarbings-iz and t4bs after touchdown (good thing you had a deathstar).

Nothing is expensive in EAW or FOC, you can literally buy the galaxy on the 30th week. In my opinion it was a poorly balanced game with no real challange, and I'm no desert fox. Yeah I understand that 8 year old lil Jimmy wanted to play it, but come on... Ok I stopped bitchin.

Taking a planet shouldn't be easy. A small Outer Rim territory may go down to a quick assault, but a major planet with a reinforced garrison should be big undertaking. You can, after all, have as many ground units in orbit as you can build.

 

Vanilla EaW had an OK balance, but FoC... not so much. At least the ships looked good.

[a.fake.name]

Okay time for another point-by-point run through!

Space:

Garrisons do not work in space. Land forces already spawn in appropriate transport craft if in space.

May be possible with scripting, otherwise unlikely (damage control has been HEAVILY nerfed in the latest version and is proportional to crew size)

Requires art work, I might do a scaling pass on the existing explosions. Explosion damage would be interesting but might vape squadrons too easily.

Death clones have not been made for any ship because we don't have the time

Space debris spawn is another interesting idea, should be possible

Not sure what you mean about the hyperspace retreat stuff...not much we can do about it anyway

Random skins are difficult and add to potential galactic lag

Blaster colours are going to stay as they are, players can mod them to canon if they want.

Laser defense are not particles and can not really be edited

Again more art work. If you want to learn the particle editor and do all that go ahead

I think some of our missiles are blue

More explosions == less performance

 

 

Land

The limit mainly arises with map size and scale which in PR is currently equivalent to ~1km x ~1km for our standard custom map size. Further limits arise from the max 10 land slots in galactic mode (cannot be changed)

 

Battalions are unlikely to turn up for the above reasons. Not an awful idea though. I'm considering suggesting more varied squad compositions, especially for the Rebels (e.g. attached anti-vehicle or marksmen for specforce platoons)

Performance will still be an issue with lots of units because the game engine is poorly optimised in some cases and maps aren't big enough without rescaling all the units (not gonna happen!)

 

Buildings

Mostly obsolete since the battalion stuff isn't going to happen (though it's not a terrible idea)

 

 

Many infantry heros now have accompanying squads of appropriate troopers

I try to make maps with infantry only areas where I can

We have garrisonable civilian structures on most maps now

Unit skins require art, but we want to do this

Clones are available on some planets. Again we need art for other skins.

Rebel vanguards are pretty good. I don't think they need a buff.

Just a thought, if no batallions, then just add further upgrades to infantry and elite units past the current end of the research tree.

So add one more infantry research: Mechanized infantry platoon. Have it add four vehicles, each capable of transporting one squad, alongside the platoon itself.
This means the infantry group can deploy then quickly transport itself into battle, and thru the vehicles have moderate heavy weapons support.

For elite barracks units, it'd make sense to take whatever armed transport they spawn as in space, and add one for the elite unit to use.