74 replies to this topic

[johnchm.10]

right then. you know the drill

 

CW holdovers: again, you know the drill. not build-able

 

Fighter. im thinking the Scout, Vanguard, or RC, which would have sensor packages of at least light freighter or better scale: this would work well with the ISD-4 and her Very Long Range Turbolasers, kinda like the Spotter Droids for Artillery Pieces. 

 

Shuttle/Transport: JV-7 this would either either be in between the Lambda and Sentinel, or after the Sentinel in terms of development. the X-wing Alliance Upgrade Project has a good model

 

Star Galleon: i don't think i need to explain this one, but basically a dedicated Superfreighter so you wouldnt have to sacrifice the one you have to build Escort Carriers. XWAUP also has a goof model

 

Light Corvette: this would serve as a late era cheap but heavily armed Corvette. i think ive seen a model used in the YV at war mod.

 

ETR-3: this could replace the ATR-6, as its stats list an extra 2 lasers, stronger shields (although a weaker hull negates this advantage), and higher speed, when compared to the ATR-6. 

 

Neb-B-2. as stated in the other poll, the Neb-2 would serve as a Heavy Frigate, sporting better shields and a stronger hull, more guns, a missile launcher, and higher speed. XWAP, YV, TR, and these guys (moddb link ) all have models.

 

Vindicator. while you could argue the Acclimator-2 already serves the same purpose, the Vindicator is smaller yet carries a similar amount of firepower, and cheaper, carrying fewer troops and needing a smaller crew. luckily, this wouldn't require many modifications to the standard Immobilizer-418 hull

 

Allegiance. pretty much, take a Tector and make it larger, with a corresponding increase in firepower. assuming 6 Heavy turrets similar to the main guns on an ISD, an Allegiance mk.2 armed with Octuple Turbolasers would have literally a dozen of them.

[Zeta1127]

Don't forget the Enforcer-class picket cruiser, the Secutor-class Star Destroyer, the Bellator-class Star Battlecruiser, the TIE Phantom built from the Terror with appropriate prerequisites, and the three phases of the Dark Trooper Project built from the Arc Hammer also with appropriate prequisites.

Edited by Zeta1127, 03 February 2014 - 07:02 PM.

[johnchm.10]

the Enforcer i didn't put in because of a few reasons. 1. it was a retrofit of the Immobilizer-418 made by a post-Endor faction, the Pentastar Alignment, not the 'mainstream' Imperial Navy. 2. it lacks the firepower of the Vindicator as well as a Hanger for fighters, apparently. 3. to me, it seems like a Vindicator would be less expensive than the Enforcer, when you consider the fact that the Enforcer is a retrofit of the Immobilizer, which is based off the Vindicator. 

the only benefit i see to this would be the fact that you could use the same model as the Immobilizer and change up the stats

 

as for the Secutor and Bellator, if you can find stats for them, by all means

[Zeta1127]

There aren't any stats for the Secutor and the Bellator, but that didn't stop PR with the Tector. The real problem with them would be a proper model, since they were only named in TEGtW and don't have proper stats, no one has bothered to try to model one to my knowledge.

[evilbobthebob]

Secutor and Bellator both have representations courtesy of the guy who invented them (fractalsponge). I made a model of the Secutor-class myself so it may turn up in the future...

[Kitkun]

If Wookieepedia is to be believed, then the Enforcer was designed by KDY/SFS personnel for Pentastar, not specifically by Pentastar itself. Also, it's armament can be interpreted to be heavier, longer ranged weapons, while the Vindi is a vicious short-ranged ship.

 

I still hate the Dark Empire Scribbled Background Ships.

[Zeta1127]

I meant models for EaW mods, not models in general, because I am well aware of Fractalsponge's splendid work interpreting Dark Empire and creating the Assertor-class Star Dreadnought, which I would also include in my suggestions.

 

I have already described how I believe the TIE Phantom and the Dark Troopers should work before, but I will reiterate it here so my ideas aren't lost to the sands of time. For the TIE Phantom, the Terror should spawn at Aeten II if the planet is destroyed by a superweapon. For the Dark Troopers, the Arc Hammer should spawn if the Empire captures Gromas 16, Fest, and Anteevy or possibly if General Rom Mohc is recruited, who should also be available as Dark Trooper Phase III in ground combat.

[johnchm.10]

There aren't any stats for the Secutor and the Bellator, but that didn't stop PR with the Tector. The real problem with them would be a proper model, since they were only named in TEGtW and don't have proper stats, no one has bothered to try to model one to my knowledge.

the difference here is that with the Tector, you already had a good starting point with the Imperial-class. Fractal's models, while awesome, have little if any stats.

 

If Wookieepedia is to be believed, then the Enforcer was designed by KDY/SFS personnel for Pentastar, not specifically by Pentastar itself. Also, it's armament can be interpreted to be heavier, longer ranged weapons, while the Vindi is a vicious short-ranged ship.

 

I still hate the Dark Empire Scribbled Background Ships.

fair enough.

 

i hate most of the artistic aspects of Dark Empire

 

I meant models for EaW mods, not models in general, because I am well aware of Fractalsponge's splendid work interpreting Dark Empire and creating the Assertor-class Star Dreadnought, which I would also include in my suggestions.

 

I have already described how I believe the TIE Phantom and the Dark Troopers should work before, but I will reiterate it here so my ideas aren't lost to the sands of time. For the TIE Phantom, the Terror should spawn at Aeten II if the planet is destroyed by a superweapon. For the Dark Troopers, the Arc Hammer should spawn if the Empire captures Gromas 16, Fest, and Anteevy or possibly if General Rom Mohc is recruited, who should also be available as Dark Trooper Phase III in ground combat.

 

Secutor and Bellator both have representations courtesy of the guy who invented them (fractalsponge). I made a model of the Secutor-class myself so it may turn up in the future...

never mind in that particular case. 

 

my main problem with your idea is the dark trooper part, but that's mainly because i dont really like one-off ships. Terror at least is only a modification of an Executor. unless you want there to be an "Arc-Hammer"-class Star Battlecruiser (presumably because she is a Factory ship, she is relatively lightly armed for her size.

 

 

 

there is one problem i am just realizing about adding new ships.

the UI. 

 

i do have some possible solutions for this though

 

redo the shipyards a bit

 

Yard 1 makes fighters, bombers, and Skipray/ATR's (freighter-sized ships that have little to no cargo space and a lot of firepower)

Yard 2 has corvettes, frigates and perhaps light cruisers

Yard 3 has medium and heavy cruisers

Yard 4 has destroyers and potential captured craft

Yard 5 has all the big things

 

XQ platforms make the income producing ships (transports and freighters)

the only problem with this is the Escort Carriers being based off of large Freighters. 

 

or

 

reorganize the yards so they use more of the UI slots.

this would mean that planets would likely have to be specialized, namely for yard 3

[a.fake.name]

I support anything for which a decent model exist being added as long as it makes sense.

As for johnchm's idea of reorginizing the UI, I agree.

To repeat what I've said before, more tweaking of the UI is needed for optimal ease of access.

Currently, it is extremly common to run into the items spilling off of the list when the high population yards are built.

As I've also said before, it should be looked into if the build UI cold be gimmicked into acting as a menu system of sorts, with dummy research items affecting dependencies in such a way that the player could sort thru a menu A, menu B, etc.

Furthermore, if dependencies and unique research/construction were tied to heroes and using a similar system, the player could even be given a sort of role play effect using the description/stats area when you mouseover.
IE: Han Solo needs to go to a world with a criminal element to research his upgrades for the Falcon.

Also, the mouseover descriptions in general could use an improved rewrite.
As it is, too many upgrade infocards don't list the upgraded specs, however many do.

Oh, also, as for the mention of the Nebulon B-2 getting a missile launcher.... the Nebulon B should get one too, as I'm pretty sure I remember it was supposed to have a conc missile tube for anti torpedo and snubcraft defense.

[johnchm.10]

the UI is one of the biggest problems in this game outside of programming when it comes to modding, to the best of my knowledge. i don't know if its the same for the rest of you, but i've room left on my screen for 4-8 slots in the UI.

 

and most of the time, for almost all of my planets, i tend to specialize when it comes to shipyards anyway, unless the planet only has 2 or 3 slots to begin with, in which case i build XQ's and the strongest Golan i can get.

i personally build 2 Golan 3's, possibly 1 research station, and the rest of the slots would be 1 shipyard, unless its a level 5 yard, then i leave 1 slot for a 1 or 2 yard.

 

i honestly think that the best option might actually be to force planets to specialize. what i mean by that is that you can have only one type of shipyard per planet. you keep the Golan, XQ, and Research Station options the same as how they are now. by doing this, you can also set it up so that you can have the UI use both the top and bottom rows to produce ships. how you would decide which ships would occupy which rows would be your decision, but i think it could work.

 

like, you could have it so in the case of level 1 yards, the top row would be fighters and interceptors and their upgrades, while the bottom row would be all Bombers and Strike Craft.

 

you could also have it so that when you hit a certain number of buttons in a row, every button after that gets moved into the other row.

 

of course, the problem with this idea is that in the case of higher level planets, if you pick either yard 4 or 5, you have all this space, but nothing to do with it

 

 

 

i see nothing on the wookie page with regards to a Neb-B having a missile or torpedo tube

Edited by johnchm.10, 04 February 2014 - 05:50 AM.

[megabalta]

I think mr. fakenames menu-tree idea is possible and logical to solve the UI problem. I have seen another mod, which contained a similar solution to actually sell space stations with an icon. On the other hand planet specialization would be great, not just because of UI, but that would also give a strategy aspect to the galaxy map.

 

Starbase menu (icons) tree could look like this:

Two main icons:

1. space colony (uprgradable lvl system, unchanged)

2. space stations (main menu icon, if built the following submenu icons appear)

-shipyards (if built 5 shipyard icons appear) - lvl1-5 (although if UI size problem is solved this way, I think a 3 level /util-fighter-bomber-transport (Sienar style), freighter-corvette-frigate (CEC style), frigate-cruiser-destroyer-capital-super (KDY style)/ shipyard system is enough, this would eliminate lvl4-5 shipyards with only few ships)

-utility stations (if built xq platform icon appears, possibility for other economical space stations like merchant docks, asteroid mining, space casino etc.)

-research stations (if built the following icons appear) - lvl 1-5 (or 1-3) should be separated from shipyards, because research options together with build options overcrowd the UI panel

-defense (if built the following icons appear) - golan 1-3 (possible other space defense buildings)

 

After building wished space station, submenu icons could be deleted via above mentioned sell space station icon, thus providing UI space. So all in all a greatly extended space station building menu would take only two icons, leaving 24 slots for buildable units/research options.

[johnchm.10]

which mod did that and how well does it work, if you played it?

Edited by johnchm.10, 04 February 2014 - 06:14 PM.

[evilbobthebob]

As I have said whenever submenus are brought up, they use the same scripting system as the PR tech tree so while they may be compatible, it would take a ridiculous amount of testing to get it working. Even if they were compatible, having a second set of lock/unlock events for every single unit in the mod is likely to cause problems.

[johnchm.10]

that and the UI is barely holding together as it is. out of curiosity, how much work would it take to force excess icons to move to the next line?

Edited by johnchm.10, 04 February 2014 - 06:38 PM.

[a.fake.name]

We're gona end up having to roll this into a new UI thread I bet, lol.

But yeah, the KEY factor to the idea is to be able to have it set up so you can use dependencies to switch between modes.
You do that, you an control what craft are visible to build on the UI with ease and you can implement an options menu with ease.

Also, while I'm not 100% it's possible, I'm pretty sure that once the menu system gets perfected, it could be used to add more sandbox type campaigns rather than the traditonal reb/imp fight, as the menu system could be designed in a way as to allow the player choices to make affecting what the player can build. Once I hear it confirmed as something that works, I think I got some even better ideas forming.

As for my take on the UI and possible new versions.....

Make space colony levels researchable tech. Once you research colony 5, you can build it right away anywhere.
Make levels 1-3 cheap. Level 4 20k or so, and level 5 50k or so.

 

As for the UI.... starting from the prespective of a freshly conquored world with nothing built....

-Build Civilian Space Station (this builds a station at your currently researched level).
Dependent on a space station (any level) being present
--Open Space Station Research Menu
---Close Space Station Research Menu
---Upgrade Local Space Station (as it says, only upgrades that single space station. Make it quicker/cheaper than global upgrades, so the player can upgrade specific worlds on the cheap)
---Research Space Station Upgrade (upgrades that apply to all worlds. This research dependent on a research station being present as well as having already upgraded the local station to the level you wish to research. upgrading a local space station to a researched level should result in a VERY fast build time.)
---Arm Space Stations. (arms civilian space stations and research stations. Further upgrades increase the compliment and stats of the two stations, as well as the trade station.)
---Local Tech. (SPECIFIC planets can get the option to research/build unique tech. If it is possible to restrict the number of something that can be built, this would be a perfect way to implement, for example, the Hapan battle dragon. This may require it's own sub-menu, UI space dependent)

 

--Open Snubcraft menu
---Fighters
----Upgrade
---Bombers
----Upgrade
----Swap Munitions (Torpedo/Rocket/Bomb/MagPulse. Note that the mag pulse would need some limiting factors to not be over powered.
---Upgrade Munitions (upgrade snubcraft projectile weapons, unlock new ones, etc. Price of the snubcraft will change accordingly. Yes, this invites rocket/bomb spam, but especially if torps can target snubcraft soon this forces the player to make a real choice. Prehaps add a tech that allows ship launched bombers to swap munitions (IE: a K-Wing carries 2(2) bombs and a reduced torpedo payload.
---Upgrade Craft (All regular snubcraft upgrades go here. Have some general upgrades that apply to ALL craft as well as the current one research per ship method.

--Fleet
---Return To Menu
---Change Compliment. (IE: you pick what loadout you want your carrier launched snubcraft to have. Note: I could see this being a global value change as the easiest way, but also see adding the ability to pick and choose per world what the 'standard' compliment will be armed with. I could also see researching upgrades for changing the actual fightercraft ships have, too. That said, that'd be a lot of work down the road eitehr way)
----Torpedo
----Rocket
----Bomb

--Defenseve Stations
---Return to Menu
---Upgrade Golan (note: It may be best to make the upgrades modular, and limit the total number of upgrades possible. Possibly limit by world size/importance.)
----Upgrade Ordinance. (gives the Golan's better/more torpedos, missiles, could even add other projectiles for a cost).
----Upgrade Turbolasers.
-----Basic Turbolaser Upgrade. (swaps the golan's heavy turbolasers for heavy double turbolasers).
------Advanced Turbolaser Upgrade. (at a 1:1 ratio, swap no more than 1/4 of your heavy double turbolaser turrets for heavy quad turbolaser turrets.
----Turboion Upgrade. (adds a 1:4 ion/laser ratio number of Turboion cannons to the Golan).
-----Basic Turboion Upgrade. (your turboion cannons become double turboion cannon
------Advanced Turboion Upgrade. (your turboion cannons become heavy turboion cannon)
----Upgrade Compliment. (you pick the compliment the Golan has, from researched craft).



Well, I think that serves as a decent enough example.

The hardest part would be coming up with a basic template to use on a global level.
From there, you just would have to tweak each worlds version.
But once that template was done, if followed it could allow for quite a bit of fun.


Of course, in the early iterations the main goal of this should simply be to eliminate UI clutter, so prehaps start with a simple 'toggle yard' option, and a 'toggle research' option, add from there.
 

 

edit: Also, we should get an IRC channel or something so we can all show up whenever and discuss this stuff, maybe the userbase could hammer something out.

Also, prehaps add unique techs to some worlds that (if doable) are used to replace the current planetry bonus.
IE: unique research on Thyfera would make your bacta tanks planetside more effective, bigger range, etc.

Edited by a.fake.name, 04 February 2014 - 06:45 PM.

[megabalta]

http://www.moddb.com...vents1#imagebox

 

The first icon below on the screenshot. Tried it before, works just fine.

[evilbobthebob]

that and the UI is barely holding together as it is. out of curiosity, how much work would it take to force excess icons to move to the next line?

100% impossible I'm afraid. There is no control over that kind of dynamic UI work unfortunately.

[a.fake.name]

 

that and the UI is barely holding together as it is. out of curiosity, how much work would it take to force excess icons to move to the next line?

100% impossible I'm afraid. There is no control over that kind of dynamic UI work unfortunately.

 

Which is where a dependency based UI overhaul to pick and choose what is displayed comes in handy.

[johnchm.10]

We're gona end up having to roll this into a new UI thread I bet, lol.

But yeah, the KEY factor to the idea is to be able to have it set up so you can use dependencies to switch between modes.
You do that, you an control what craft are visible to build on the UI with ease and you can implement an options menu with ease.

Also, while I'm not 100% it's possible, I'm pretty sure that once the menu system gets perfected, it could be used to add more sandbox type campaigns rather than the traditonal reb/imp fight, as the menu system could be designed in a way as to allow the player choices to make affecting what the player can build. Once I hear it confirmed as something that works, I think I got some even better ideas forming.

As for my take on the UI and possible new versions.....

Make space colony levels researchable tech. Once you research colony 5, you can build it right away anywhere.
Make levels 1-3 cheap. Level 4 20k or so, and level 5 50k or so.

 

As for the UI.... starting from the prespective of a freshly conquored world with nothing built....

-Build Civilian Space Station (this builds a station at your currently researched level).
Dependent on a space station (any level) being present
--Open Space Station Research Menu
---Close Space Station Research Menu
---Upgrade Local Space Station (as it says, only upgrades that single space station. Make it quicker/cheaper than global upgrades, so the player can upgrade specific worlds on the cheap)
---Research Space Station Upgrade (upgrades that apply to all worlds. This research dependent on a research station being present as well as having already upgraded the local station to the level you wish to research. upgrading a local space station to a researched level should result in a VERY fast build time.)
---Arm Space Stations. (arms civilian space stations and research stations. Further upgrades increase the compliment and stats of the two stations, as well as the trade station.)
---Local Tech. (SPECIFIC planets can get the option to research/build unique tech. If it is possible to restrict the number of something that can be built, this would be a perfect way to implement, for example, the Hapan battle dragon. This may require it's own sub-menu, UI space dependent)

 

--Open Snubcraft menu
---Fighters
----Upgrade
---Bombers
----Upgrade
----Swap Munitions (Torpedo/Rocket/Bomb/MagPulse. Note that the mag pulse would need some limiting factors to not be over powered.
---Upgrade Munitions (upgrade snubcraft projectile weapons, unlock new ones, etc. Price of the snubcraft will change accordingly. Yes, this invites rocket/bomb spam, but especially if torps can target snubcraft soon this forces the player to make a real choice. Prehaps add a tech that allows ship launched bombers to swap munitions (IE: a K-Wing carries 2(2) bombs and a reduced torpedo payload.
---Upgrade Craft (All regular snubcraft upgrades go here. Have some general upgrades that apply to ALL craft as well as the current one research per ship method.

--Fleet
---Return To Menu
---Change Compliment. (IE: you pick what loadout you want your carrier launched snubcraft to have. Note: I could see this being a global value change as the easiest way, but also see adding the ability to pick and choose per world what the 'standard' compliment will be armed with. I could also see researching upgrades for changing the actual fightercraft ships have, too. That said, that'd be a lot of work down the road eitehr way)
----Torpedo
----Rocket
----Bomb

--Defenseve Stations
---Return to Menu
---Upgrade Golan (note: It may be best to make the upgrades modular, and limit the total number of upgrades possible. Possibly limit by world size/importance.)
----Upgrade Ordinance. (gives the Golan's better/more torpedos, missiles, could even add other projectiles for a cost).
----Upgrade Turbolasers.
-----Basic Turbolaser Upgrade. (swaps the golan's heavy turbolasers for heavy double turbolasers).
------Advanced Turbolaser Upgrade. (at a 1:1 ratio, swap no more than 1/4 of your heavy double turbolaser turrets for heavy quad turbolaser turrets.
----Turboion Upgrade. (adds a 1:4 ion/laser ratio number of Turboion cannons to the Golan).
-----Basic Turboion Upgrade. (your turboion cannons become double turboion cannon
------Advanced Turboion Upgrade. (your turboion cannons become heavy turboion cannon)
----Upgrade Compliment. (you pick the compliment the Golan has, from researched craft).



Well, I think that serves as a decent enough example.

The hardest part would be coming up with a basic template to use on a global level.
From there, you just would have to tweak each worlds version.
But once that template was done, if followed it could allow for quite a bit of fun.


Of course, in the early iterations the main goal of this should simply be to eliminate UI clutter, so prehaps start with a simple 'toggle yard' option, and a 'toggle research' option, add from there.
 

 

edit: Also, we should get an IRC channel or something so we can all show up whenever and discuss this stuff, maybe the userbase could hammer something out.

Also, prehaps add unique techs to some worlds that (if doable) are used to replace the current planetry bonus.
IE: unique research on Thyfera would make your bacta tanks planetside more effective, bigger range, etc.

 

fake, that's a great idea, but too much i think for this mod, maybe even the game. you would need to start from scratch

 

 

that and the UI is barely holding together as it is. out of curiosity, how much work would it take to force excess icons to move to the next line?

100% impossible I'm afraid. There is no control over that kind of dynamic UI work unfortunately.

 

 

damn. what about having certain icons be on one or the other line, like having half of yard 3 ships be on the bottom or top rows, with the other half being on the other row.

 

 

 

 

 

new idea. this would work with my specialization idea, or as a retrofit to the current system

 

have the ships be on one row, and the upgrades and other research items be on the other

Edited by johnchm.10, 04 February 2014 - 07:07 PM.

[a.fake.name]

I really don't see why it wouldn't work.

It would just be taking advantage of dependencies to pick and choose what shows up on the UI.

Furthermore, you could start simple and build it more complex as skill with the new system is gained. (IE: pick to show build options from one type of yard or the research station one at a time)

And honestly, that I think is the key.
Start with it being used to JUST fix the UI overflow issue, then experiment and expand it into other stuff.

Also if anyone here has anything close to the experience with modding the game wants to work with me in making a test UI, I'm game.