Fascism

What evidence? Your subjective opinion that Hitler was right wing, without giving me any certifiable proof?

It's like telling me the sky is green. I see blue, so I don't know how you're seeing anything else when all evidence points to blue.

Which nations, again, are completely socialist and haven't committed some crime against humanity while being created?

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And once again, you just show that no matter how much evidence we find, you will just ignore it, because it doesn't fit your idea of the world. What is the point in arguing with someone that won't even consider another view?

Which nations, again, are completely socialist and haven't committed some crime against humanity while being created?

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Lets turn this the other way around shall we? Which capitalist country havent commited a crime against humanity while being created? Answer: none. Even your own country did murder native americans, and in the XX century racism did its own job. So your point is?

@ ACK well if your a following of witchcraft which side dark or light?

I don't exclusively look at one side of the world. There are pros and cons to light and dark as you've so bluntly put them across. Unlike a quite a few others, I embrace both sides because without balance there is nothing but chaos. You can't have night without day, and day without night - why pretend night doesn't exist because you don't like it?

You also know that during's Jesus's time, seers and witchcraft were extremely frown upon for obvious reasons.

I still believe that Jesus doesn't care about your religious philosophy so long as it follows most of his guidelines and still allows belief in him.

@ others and ACK : Also you comparing the morals of our society to ancient society as if though we are perfect?

So your logic here is that comparing today's morality to that of ancient society automatically implies perfection on our part? That is not what I was saying at all.

I don't exclusively look at one side of the world. There are pros and cons to light and dark as you've so bluntly put them across. Unlike a quite a few others, I embrace both sides because without balance there is nothing but chaos. You can't have night without day, and day without night - why pretend night doesn't exist because you don't like it?

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Why do you continue to argue about socialism then?

Because the cons of socialism outweigh the pros, there is very little balance to it. Although I wasn't talking about worldly views at all, I was speaking more along the lines of practicing spells and spell casting.

Still in capitalism it is very very hard (if not impossible without a great deal of luck) to get much higher when you start at the bottom. And the people that are a the top today have probably never even seen the bottom. A common concept in capitalism; the poor stay poor and the rich get richer.

no, not true, it's very hard to get to the bottom to the top. Improving your social status isn't that difficult really, you'll have to work for it of course, something that socialists seem very against.

The people that complain they're paying for the poor have never really understood the concept of socialism. The idea of it is that everyone is equal, no matter what. I can't see what's wrong with that really, so I don't understand why there is so much anti-socialism here. While I don't believe in 100% state-controlled business and therefore am not a full socialist, I do believe that it is the task and duty of the government to keep things equal. Impose taxes on the rich, and help the poor with the money gained from those taxes. It is a very social thing to do, hence the name. A saying which could be the whole basis of socialism goes as follows:

It isn't equal, only a free ride for the lazy, and anti socialism here? HERE? lmao.

'De sterkste schouders zullen de zwaarste lasten moeten dragen.'
(The strongest shoulders will carry the heaviest loads)

And what about those of us who have the strongest shoulders, and have to carry the heaviest loads? Doesn't that get something extra, for doing more that others? For going the extra mile? Somehow I don't think a pat on the back will cut it for most people.

Just a few weeks ago there was a big scandal here as it became known that the directors of NUON and Essent (electricity companies) were making over €800 000 a year, even more than the prime minister. In that case I would say, true to socialism, that they hand out over 50% of that, and that it be used to help people who are unemployed, unable to work or in other problematic situations. I'm sure that if someone makes such a large sum of money they can survive with less than half of it. People can survive with €10 000 a year, so I'm sure €400 000 won't be a problem.

If they wish to give their money to the unemployed, then they can. What makes you so sure the government knows where their money should go so much better than them? What makes you so sure the government will use this money to help others?

Socialism does not inherently believe in a privilege to certain groups. As the whole concept of socialism is equal rights, chances and pay, there should be no real 'groups'. The Netherlands is one of the most tolerant countries in the world, and even then it gets abused by people who feel like stirring up trouble. I believe that if everyone would be smart enough to just stick to the rules and be nice, share, do as much as you can for society, there would be no problems at all. Unfortunately it is sad that it is usually political and religious extremists that mess it up. But I do not make any distinction between these groups, I consider them all a bunch of idiots.

tolerance is easy when there is no such thing as an individual

Another sad thing is that it is always certain people that mess it up for a much larger group. Extremist muslims in Afghanistan, Iran and Palestine attract attention, and suddenly everyone thinks that Islam is evil. Even ACK said it, so that proves my point. But there is a big difference between the Qur'an's islam and the islam of modern day muslims. ACK quoted some sentences from the Qur'an, which I unfortunately can't verify since I lack a copy of the book myself, in which certain aspects come forward that would show the modern islam to be agressive and stupid. However, I would argue that the vast majority of muslims do not follow the Qur'an to the letter. Just like christians do not follow the bible word for word. If they did, then we would still live in the early first millennium, and a post like this would have resulted in getting my head chopped off, getting hung, stoned or crucified by either a muslim or a christian for supporting another religion. Or they would do it if they found out I was an atheist. So we can only be glad that the religion has evolved. America has its own share of extremist christians (see http://www.mk-magazi...ives/001567.php for a humourous yet frightening example), just like the middle east has its own share of religious fanatics. The only difference is that in one place the fanatics turn militant and in the other they don't. But to use that as an argument that the religion itself is hateful and destructive, in this light would be ignorant, shallow and short-sighted.

Jesus even befriended the whores and the feeble minded remember? Christianity and Islam teach tolerance, I really don't see how someone managed to get blowing themselves up with a truck full of C4 from it.

Islam does not teach tolerance. Did you read the Koran quote where it says to make war against those whom the Scriptures have been given? Those are Christians.

A literal interpretation of the Quran might say that. I'm pretty sure that most Muslims will accept the view that tolerance is more important. Everyone is not an extremist. Religions change with time, as people accept interpretations of scripture.

Your´re so right, but, at least as I could see and If we look backwards to the story, we are now living an involution in terms of religion practice. I´ll explain myself: muslims actually wants to live their religion as if they are in the 9th century, even the catholic religion is experimenting a kind of dark age in wich the Vatican , together with governements with some traces of fascist thoughts ( our las president AZNAR was one of them, together with Italian´s president Berlusconi)spreads ways of thinking more than repressive and "old-fashioned".

They consider the condom use as a sin, the GAY and Lesbian Marriage as a sacrilege , the abortion a kind of murder, the woman is but a mere womb in wich the fetus grow, the investigation with mother-cells forbidden by "god´s" order...and I can follow, and, what about the muslims?, an ancient imperium ( Spain was theirs for 800 years) whrere the origins of modern obstetric surgery born a hundred years ago, the use of water to move mills and create huge green zones even in semi desertic areas was developed in a manner that even in actual days couldn´t be made better , and so on (astrology, chemistry, metal manufacturing and weaponry, etc...) what´s left of this imperium? , a bunch of fanatics armed with AK47, TNT belts and a Coran nailed into their brains ready to kill for Allah...an authentic disaster.If they just start to be more intelligent, as they were once upon a time, the world could be better...and the same goes to the christian-catholic fanatics, of course ( I´ve heard that in Texas, EEUU, some schools had returned to the Creationist stream where they say that Darwing is a liar and humanity comes from paradise , and that our ancestors are ADAM and EVE )

It's not ridiculous at all to call Stalin a socialist, because he was indeed a socialist. Sure, he went off and ordered the deaths of a few million people and caused misery and pain, but that's not too unusual in nations that follow the ideals of Marx.

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¿?


An example that you are veeery wrong.

1970: Marxist Salvador Allende is elected as the new president of Chile.
1973: Army general in chief Augusto Pinochet (right wing) makes a coup. Allende dies and a dictatorship leaden by Pinochet starts.
In the dictatorship: many socialist and communist and other left wings die or disappear.

Brazil also had a right wing dictatorship during the 70's that killed millions of people, most of them suspect to be part of the comunist party (ilegal at that moment).

and the same goes to the christian-catholic fanatics, of course ( I´ve heard that in Texas, EEUU, some schools had returned to the Creationist stream where they say that Darwing is a liar and humanity comes from paradise , and that our ancestors are ADAM and EVE  )

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Not really, actually they tend to not teach anything regarding that subject if the school committee of the area does not believe that evolution should be taught. No current place in the United States actually teaches creationism to my knowledge.
And yes, there are Christian fanatics. A refugee camp that was packed with Muslims, and was being "protected" by Israeli forces under the command of then Major General Ariel Sharon, was attacked by a Christian militia. There were only women and children in the camp, and all were killed.

the GAY and Lesbian Marriage as a sacrilege

It is, according to the Bible and most churches.

the GAY and Lesbian Marriage as a sacrilege

It is, according to the Bible and most churches.

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There's no God, so the Bible and similar texts shouldn't be used as the government law.

Beyond determining whether if God does exist or not, law should not be mixed with beliefs unless its to ensure the human faculty to possess them. Else law is bound to be affected by religion at any time, religion being a variable conception for everyone.

So, in few words, the fact that something is morally incorrect for a group, and as consequence it is banned by law, just means law is only fair for the group that gets the benefit...while most times, we seek the benefit of the majority. As a result, procedurally speaking, the best way out to decide on it, is a referendum.

There's no God, so the Bible and similar texts shouldn't be used as the government law.

Nobody knows if there's a god. To say that it isn't possible is truely ignorant.

Islam does not teach tolerance. Did you read the Koran quote where it says to make war against those whom the Scriptures have been given? Those are Christians.

Can't say I have, I never read the whole thing. Even early Islam showed tolerance to Christians and Jews, as they believed that their beliefs were correct, but incomplete.

Edited by Silent_Killa, 22 May 2005 - 05:19 AM.

Bad news, people: Your new posts will disappear.

Well, they might not. I screwed up the first backup, so I'm now taking a second backup. And it's currently packing gamemod, with Revora still in the future. So, a bit longer before the discussion starts disappearing. I just don't want people to post anything too important.

Dude, quote properly or don't quote at all...

Don't tell me how to quote in my own forum. Theres a forum bug, i'm not going to edit a post once its posted and go through fixing quotes just because your unhappy.

It wasn't "stalinism", that's a term coined by the left because they don't want to be associated with mass murderers and oppressive dictators.

Lenin didn't commit mass murder. He didn't say "i don't like him, shoot him" like stalin did. Stalinism is what we saw from 1940 - the fall of the soviet union. If you disagree fair enough, but stalinism could be said to be based on feudalism as the system was extremely close. Stalin distorted the image of communism, he lost the vision and millions of people worldwide suffered gravely from it.

Instead of calling it socialism, which the practice really was over there in the USSR (It's not called the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics for nothing! Unless you're going to tell me that they weren't "true" socialists..), you'll call it Stalinism...

Socialism is not kill all those fuckers who disagree with us, its about everyone being equal and having the freedoms that capitalism restricts.

If that were so true, why was Khrushchev slightly better than Stalin was?

He was still obsessed with fighting the cold war, it makes him no better than stalin to allow his own people to suffer because of a nuclear arms race with corporate america. The view of socialism was lost once lenin died. Stalin gradually seize power and turned it into his little fanatical power house.

If you even READ anything about Islam you'd know that it's a hate filled religion that was created by a pedophile called Mohammed.

Here's some Koran quotes that should help you out a bit.

"When thy Lord spake unto the angels, 'I will be with you: therefore stablish ye the faithful. I will cast a dread into the hearts of the infidels.' Strike off their heads then, and strike off from them every finger tip." - Sura 8:12

"Make war upon such of those to whom the Scriptures have been given as they believe not in God, or in the last day, and who forbid not that which God and His Apostle have forbidden, and who profess not the profession of the truth, until they pay tribute out of hand, and they be humbled." Sura 9:29

“Say to the infidels: If they desist from their unbelief, what is now past shall be forgiven them, but if they return to it, they have already before them the doom of the ancients! Fight then against them till strife be at an end, and the religion be all of it God's. If they desist, verily God beholdeth what they do:" - Sura 8:39-40

“And who believe in what hath been sent down to thee, and in what hath been sent down before thee, and full faith have they in the life to come.
These are guided by their Lord; and with these it shall be well.
As to the infidels, alike is it to them whether thou warn them or warm them not – they will not believe.
Their hearts and their ears hath God sealed up; and over their eyes is a covering. For them, a severe chastisement!” Sura 2:3-6

"O our Lord! punish us not if we forget, or fall into sin; O our Lord! and lay not on us a load like that which thou has laid on those who have been before us; O our Lord! and lay not on us that for which we have not strength: but blot out our sins and forgive us, and have pity on us. Thou art our protector: give us victory therefore over the infidel nations." Surah 2:286

"Is it not proved to those who inherit this land after its ancient occupants, that if we please we can smite them for their sins, and put a seal upon their hearts, that they hearken not?” Sura 7:98

“Say to the infidels: If they desist from their unbelief, what is now past shall be forgiven them, but if they return to it, they have already before them the doom of the ancients! Fight then against them till strife be at an end, and the religion be all of it God's …" - Sura 8:39-40

"And when the sacred months are passed, kill those who join other gods with God wherever ye shall find them; and seize them, besiege them, and lay wait for them with every kind of ambush: but if they shall convert, and observe prayer, and pay the obligatory alms, then let them go their way, for God is Gracious, Merciful." Sura 9:5

"It shall be no crime on the part of the blind, the lame, or the sick, if they go not to the fight. But whoso shall obey God and His Apostle, He shall bring him into the gardens 'neath which the rivers flow: but whoso shall turn back, He will punish him with a sore punishment." Sura 48:17

“And when ye go forth to war in the land, it shall be no crime in you to cut short your prayers, if ye fear lest the infidels come upon you; Verily, the infidels are your undoubted enemies!” Sura 4:102

Suggestion: Read the bible. You will find simular quotes throughout. All religions are similar. Islam is not a violent religion. So stop with the neo-right wing crap that islam is out to get you. Again its Fanatics, radicals, not the ideology.

""Let us consider the actual, worldly Jew -- not the Sabbath Jew, as Bauer does, but the everyday Jew. Let us not look for the secret of the Jew in his religion, but let us look for the secret of his religion in the real Jew. What is the secular basis of Judaism? Practical need, self-interest. What is the worldly religion of the Jew? Huckstering. What is his worldly God? Money. Very well then! Emancipation from huckstering and money, consequently from practical, real Jewry, would be the self-emancipation of our time.... We recognize in Jewry, therefore, a general present-time-oriented anti-social element, an element which through historical development -- to which in this harmful respect the Jews have zealously contributed -- has been brought to its present high level, at which it must necessarily dissolve itself. In the final analysis, the emancipation of the Jews is the emancipation of mankind from Jewry"."

He meant religion. Marx was against religion because he saw it as a way for the bourgeisue to exploit the workers, and to an extent it is true.

But yeah. Hitler was right wing, obviously since it's opposite day!

Oh as its opposite day, ACK welcome to planet earth...

Hitler was extreme right. Unless you wish to set out on one of your tireless crusades to change history, accept it. He was extreme right. He was totally the opposite to socialists. Everyone equal. He believed in a hierarchial structure in which the middle class lead the way. The middle class is mainly who hitler targetted as they generally shared the same prejudices as him. Socialism is for the working class to free them from corruption and exploitation they receive under fascism and capitalism. Socialism is against typically against war. Pacifists are usually left wing. Problems with russia was they were built on war and they had to compete with the US to ensure they still had dominance throughout the world. If that had not been the case, i'm sure the USSR would have never gone backrupt and would have turned into the liberal socialism that communism is supposed to be.

Freedom in socialism is that everyone is out of poverty and is able to be free through getting the money they need. Some liberal socialists will push through things such as legalise cannabis and many other freedoms. Socialists are more for freedom than capitalists. Look at america, patriot act, just wait for the next few and i'm sure there will be a dicatorship there soon.

And are shortly thereafter killed for being inferior, dissenting, or just being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Taking from one and giving to another with force is not freedom.

As opposed to those in capitalism who died from starvation and suffering for being inferior. Again, fanatics cause the problems, not the ideology. Communist Russia was taken over by stalin who was a worse fanatic than lenin, but instead of a fanatic for socialism he was a fanatic for power.

Most socialists are SD, social democrats, mean they believe in democracy, there are parties everywhere. Blair is a socialist, he believes in democracy and hes done so much for britain since hes been in power. Don't tell me it doesn't work, because its working in spain, britain and many other countries, and people are happy. Thats why labour just won a third term, and probably why they will win a forth too.

And that's why Germany's economy is crap, their unemployment is around 12%, and why so many people are losing money over there. Socialism works, because it makes everyone poor!

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Thats why britains economy is the strongest it has ever been, thats why people have never been so happy with labour, thats why they just won a third term, thats why blair is resigning (from his centre-right post of the labour party to be replaced with brown who is left wing). Thats also why spain is against war and many spanish people are happy with their new government.

Look up other socialist countries before you blabber on a load of shit. Most of them are more successful than capitalism. To the point america and its corporate capitalism, most of your children live in poverty, medicare is being cut and probably will no longer exist in the near future. Many of your soliders are coming home with no benefits and unable to work. Your unemployment is rising and your economy getting worse every day. Compare capitalist america to socialist britain and you'll see socialism works in its moderate form, which is the form i support. Now just if it was more liberal a lot of more people would be happy.

And ACK as for hitler being left wing. Nationalism is a right wing factor. Hitler was a nationalist. You will see no nationalism in left wing culture.

Because people aren't _that_ stupid. People don't think the Democrat party is about democracy, they think it's about left wing individuals. People don't think the Republican part is about a republic, they think it's about right wing individuals.

People are stupid, masses are ignorant and greedy. Go figure. Hitler adopted many left wing policies and ditched them as he found them disguisting and said they failed to work in his efforts for power. Hitler was a liar. If you believe in his lies then your just as blind as the masses.

Everyone is ignorant somehow, but that doesn't make them stupid.

I agree, however it depends how ignorant they are. If the ignorance is accompanied with greed then it leads to stupidity.

So in conclusion lets compare Nazi system to the communist system. They both had police forces, they both controlled media, they both indoctrinated the public, they both killed millions. Fanatical societies are difficult to distinguish from, maybe thats why you believe hitler was left wing. IMO, and opinion of a majority of historians, he was right wing. Although he committed many crimes similar to the communists it does not make him left wing. He was a fascist. A hater of immigrants and anyone who was not of the aryan race. He was also a nationalist which is a right wing factor. Nationalism results in rascism and the believe your country is more superior than others. Socialists see the world as their country and it is a total opposite to the ideology of "National Socialism" which sees just their country and the aryan race, whom which all members are equal.

Its so typical for a right-winger. Everything thats evil to him is considered left-wing, even if it violates human history.

I was going to write this big post about socialism but theres no point, as Hybrid said everything id want to say right now.

Ill just add my 2 cents to this quote:

Look up other socialist countries before you blabber on a load of shit. Most of them are more successful than capitalism. To the point america and its corporate capitalism, most of your children live in poverty, medicare is being cut and probably will no longer exist in the near future. Many of your soliders are coming home with no benefits and unable to work. Your unemployment is rising and your economy getting worse every day.

War boosts economy. Iraq. US government is on the verge of bankruptcy. No need to say more, other then it looks as America is coming nearer and nearer to the fate of the Soviet Union.

Germany and France were none the better protesting against the war. They had massive weapon stakes in Iraq and the war hurt their interests when there was no more dictatorship that could buy weapons from them.