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#201 Mastermind

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Posted 19 May 2005 - 10:06 PM

http://www.spartacus...k/GERhitler.htm

Hitler saw socialism as part of a Jewish conspiracy. Many of the socialist leaders in Germany, including Kurt Eisner, Rosa Luxemburg, Ernst Toller and Eugen Levine were Jews. So also were many of the leaders of the October Revolution in Russia. This included Leon Trotsky, Gregory Zinoviev, Lev Kamenev, Dimitri Bogrov, Karl Radek, Yakov Sverdlov, Maxim Litvinov, Adolf Joffe, and Moisei Uritsky. It had not escaped Hitler's notice that Karl Marx, the prophet of socialism, had also been a Jew.

After the war Hitler was stationed in Munich, the capital of Bavaria. While Hitler was in Munich, the capital of Bavaria, Kurt Eisner, leader of the Independent Socialist Party, declared Bavaria a Socialist Republic. Hitler was appalled by the revolution. As a German Nationalist he disagreed with the socialist belief in equality.


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Well, when it comes to writing an expository essay about counter-insurgent tactics, I'm of the old school. First you tell them how you're going to kill them. Then you kill them. Then you tell them how you just killed them.

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#202 Aircraftkiller

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Posted 19 May 2005 - 10:11 PM

That isn't hypocrisy. You have *no* idea of what that word means! Stop using it incorrectly for once in your life and read:

hy·poc·ri·sy P Pronunciation Key (h-pkr-s)
n. pl. hy·poc·ri·sies
The practice of professing beliefs, feelings, or virtues that one does not hold or possess; falseness.
An act or instance of such falseness.

I *never* said I would follow the rules here and be a super productive member. If I happen to do so in the course of my stay at these forums, all the better. If anything you're the one bringing up "This is how you should act, these are my rules, follow them" and refuse to do it in the same place. If anyone here is a hypocrite, it would be you for that statement.

You've made several points... Do you even remember posting something here?

Point 1: Ah, so you believe Hitler more than anyone else who replied to you. That is indeed sad. Looks like you've fallen for his lie just like so many Germans did at the time.

You're saying that I believed a lie without proving his words to be lies.

Point 2: There is but one truth. If you avert your eyes from it, you will always remain nothing more than a puppet.

You're calling me a misguided fool, yet again refusing to support the argument.

All you've done is post fallacies of logic called ad-hominem, attacking the arguer instead of the argument. In any intelligent discussion of ideals, your action would simply make your writing ignored so that productive conversation and free exchange of ideas could ensue.

But since you're a socialist, it's not surprising that you're using the same tactics that your previous kin had done. Demonize the opposition (The Jews! The negroes! The Asians!) and put out claims that cannot be substiantiated.

Thanks for playing, come again...

Mastermind:

Your link makes no sense and I think you're reading a case of revisionist history. Why would Hitler name his party the National Socialists if he hated socialism so much? Furthermore, that paper totally ignores that Karl Marx, as a Jew, hated Jews and so did Frederich Engels. They both wrote many things about hatred of the Jews and how mankind would be better off without them. It's not surprising that Hitler would find them to be great inspirations.

Edited by Aircraftkiller, 19 May 2005 - 10:14 PM.


#203 Mastermind

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Posted 19 May 2005 - 10:14 PM

Stay on topic please.

Did you even read the entire page? They named it socialist to gain more support. Socialism was very popular in Germany at the time. Why not make your party seem that way to gain support of the people?

What Hitler said depended very much on the audience. In rural areas he promised tax cuts for farmers and government actin to protect food prices. In working class areas he spoke of redistribution of wealth and attacked the high profits made by the large chain stores. When he spoke to industrialists, Hitler concentrated on his plans to destroy communism and to reduce the power of the trade union movement. Hitler's main message was that Germany's economic recession was due to the Treaty of Versailles. Other than refusing to pay reparations, Hitler avoided explaining how he would improve the German economy.

He changed his message to fit the audience, and to gain power. So, hiding under the cloak of socialism seems like something he would do.
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Well, when it comes to writing an expository essay about counter-insurgent tactics, I'm of the old school. First you tell them how you're going to kill them. Then you kill them. Then you tell them how you just killed them.

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#204 Aircraftkiller

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Posted 19 May 2005 - 10:35 PM

Because people aren't _that_ stupid. People don't think the Democrat party is about democracy, they think it's about left wing individuals. People don't think the Republican part is about a republic, they think it's about right wing individuals.

As I showed earlier, from Ludwig von Mises in 1944:

"The Nazis have not only imitated the Bolshevist tactics of seizing power. They have copied much more. They have imported from Russia the one-party system and the privileged role of this party and its members in public life; the paramount position of the secret police; the organization of affiliated parties abroad which are employed in fighting their domestic governments and in sabotage and espionage, assisted by public funds and the protection of the diplomatic and consular service; the administrative execution and imprisonment of political adversaries; concentration camps; the punishment inflicted on the families of exiles; the methods of propaganda. They have borrowed from the Marxians even such absurdities as the mode of address, party comrade (Parteigenosse), derived from the Marxian comrade (Genosse), and the use of a military terminology for all items of civil and economic life. The question is not in which respects both systems are alike but in which they differ..."

"The Marxians are not prepared to admit that the Nazis are socialists too. In their eyes Nazism is the worst of all evils of capitalism. On the other hand, the Nazis describe the Russian system as the meanest of all types of capitalist exploitation and as a devilish machination of World Jewry for the domination of the gentiles. Yet it is clear that both systems, the German and the Russian, must be considered from an economic point of view as socialist. And it is only the economic point of view that matters in debating whether or not a party or system is socialist. Socialism is and has always been considered a system of economic organization of society. It is the system under which the government has full control of production and distribution. As far as socialism existing merely within individual countries can be called genuine, both Russia and Germany are right in calling their systems socialist."

This guy lived in Germany as a Jew and observed all of this happening. He had every reason to record the reality of the situation.

#205 Mastermind

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Posted 20 May 2005 - 12:00 AM

Because people aren't _that_ stupid. People don't think the Democrat party is about democracy, they think it's about left wing individuals. People don't think the Republican part is about a republic, they think it's about right wing individuals.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'd disagree. A little propaganda, a lot of money, and you can convince people whatever you want them to believe. If people aren't _that_ stupid, why do they buy from spam, or open strange random files, or accept 12 million pieces of spyware, or just about any other stupid thing that happens all the time?
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Well, when it comes to writing an expository essay about counter-insurgent tactics, I'm of the old school. First you tell them how you're going to kill them. Then you kill them. Then you tell them how you just killed them.

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#206 Aircraftkiller

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Posted 20 May 2005 - 12:11 AM

Everyone is ignorant somehow, but that doesn't make them stupid.

#207 Mastermind

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Posted 20 May 2005 - 12:34 AM

A quote that seems to fit. "A person is smart. People are dumb." Or something rather close to that. Also, at the time, people wanted to believe things like this. They were facing economic troubles, their country had been pounded in a pretty recent war. If you want to believe someone, they can tell you lots of lies.
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Well, when it comes to writing an expository essay about counter-insurgent tactics, I'm of the old school. First you tell them how you're going to kill them. Then you kill them. Then you tell them how you just killed them.

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#208 BlckWyerve

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Posted 20 May 2005 - 12:39 AM

In a way, it wasn't a *complete* lie. Although he pushed Germany into another war, his re-arming policies put millions back to work and pushed the country out of disaster. You know, before he decided to kill 8 million people.

#209 Banshee

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Posted 20 May 2005 - 04:05 AM

Hmmm... party time :rolleyes:. All quotes from AircraftKiller

It wasn't "stalinism", that's a term coined by the left because they don't want to be associated with mass murderers and oppressive dictators. Instead of calling it socialism, which the practice really was over there in the USSR (It's not called the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics for nothing! Unless you're going to tell me that they weren't "true" socialists..), you'll call it Stalinism... If that were so true, why was Khrushchev slightly better than Stalin was?


- You are commiting a primary mistake with your conclusion: socialism is an economical system. A socialist state is a state that controls all the business. Period. You are adding meanings that are not exactly part of it. Stalin killed millions of people. Lenin didn't. Both were socialists.


http://www.pcpages.c...sl/moh-comp.htm

Mohammed's admiring Muslim biographers Abu Dawud and Tabari both record that in his first year at Medinah after fleeing from Mecca, Mohammed consummated his marriage to Ayisha, a young girl (jariyah) only 9 years old! In this day and age people in any civilized country would consider Mohammed a pedophile and a rapist for marrying and having sex with a little girl child less than ten years old, yet this is still practiced in some Muslim countries!


And do you trust this source? Believe me, you can find a lot of shit in google, but the first step to see if a source is reliable is to check if it's being neutral. It's not the case of your source where it is a site that fight against fundamentalism in Iran. They can write a lot of bull shit, you know?


Considering Hitler was the LEADER of the NSDAP, of course I'll take his word for it considering his words echo that of Marx and Engels, both the original creators of socialism as we know it today.


And I'll take the words from one of Hitlers ministers:

- A lie repeated many times becomes a truth.


Be carefull with what kind of information you trust, dude. You are an easy target for Hitler's tactics.
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#210 Aircraftkiller

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Posted 20 May 2005 - 06:19 AM

I'm the one who's an easy target yet you're the one who hasn't proved any statements at all, and still refuse to do so?

Let me put it this way, if we were living in 1938 Germany, you would be the first person on the bandwagon saying "Hitler isn't lying about anything!" while I'm finding the fastest way to get out of there. I haven't seen you post anything critical, it's been the same regurgitation of the "socialism was not a system that Nazi Germany used" line that every other misguided individual concerning the subject talks about.

It's become one of the easiest ways to discount the failures of Marx's idealogy so that the world is prepared for another "try it and see" nation. How many people have to die before you all finally figure out that socialism has brought very little to the world besides more death, destruction and hate?

#211 Mastermind

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Posted 20 May 2005 - 07:42 AM

We've shown you the evidence, you just discount it. And we see many "trial" socialist nations that are managing not to bring death and destruction to the world. You just don't seem to want to accept that.
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Well, when it comes to writing an expository essay about counter-insurgent tactics, I'm of the old school. First you tell them how you're going to kill them. Then you kill them. Then you tell them how you just killed them.

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#212 Aircraftkiller

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Posted 20 May 2005 - 09:03 AM

What evidence? Your subjective opinion that Hitler was right wing, without giving me any certifiable proof?

It's like telling me the sky is green. I see blue, so I don't know how you're seeing anything else when all evidence points to blue.

Which nations, again, are completely socialist and haven't committed some crime against humanity while being created?

#213 Comrade Kal

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Posted 20 May 2005 - 09:37 AM

Today, Mohammed would be considered a paedophile.

So would 90% of the people in the bible, that is if they weren't in lunatic asylums. You can't compare values of today and so long ago.

And as for hate, the bible is just as bad. God sending a bear to tear apart two little children who made fun of a bald man is just one example. There are many others.

It'd ridiculous lumping the political ideals with individuals. Do all Marxists have enormous beards? No. Do all Communists have moustaches? No. Are all communists dictators? No they are not.

Edited by Lord Kal, 20 May 2005 - 09:41 AM.

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#214 Aircraftkiller

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Posted 20 May 2005 - 09:54 AM

You can't compare values of today and so long ago.


Oh, but I can; and did.

I don't care much for the Bible as I'm not a practicing Christian. I'm a follower of witchcraft thus the Bible doesn't mean that much to me, although I do believe the Christian God exists and that Jesus died so that we might live.

Facial features have little to do with political views. If you call yourself a Marxist, chances are you're a Marxist and not a libertarian. Labels exist for the reason of classifying people into neat little categories where they'll be easily figured out and sorted by what they do and what they believe.

It's not ridiculous at all to call Stalin a socialist, because he was indeed a socialist. Sure, he went off and ordered the deaths of a few million people and caused misery and pain, but that's not too unusual in nations that follow the ideals of Marx.

#215 Allied General

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Posted 20 May 2005 - 10:59 AM

Also old school bible rules said do not dishonour parents of death is equal, however jesus disabled the rule with the prevented stoning of an sexually active women.

You must understand the whole picture, not one point in time.

@ ACK well if your a following of witchcraft which side dark or light?

You also know that during's Jesus's time, seers and witchcraft were extremely frown upon for obvious reasons.

I'm attempting to ask seriously instead of automatically think BS or LMAO.

@ others and ACK : Also you comparing the morals of our society to ancient society as if though we are perfect?

The modern society is just as equal or even more f*cked up 1400 years ago then it is today. People in the beginning didn't understand the true concepts of love, forgiveness, etc and thus an brutal slap in the face was needed.

Last time i check the ancient spartans didn't wipe out two cities with millions of people using nuclear weapons. But oh you can't compare now with then, but look i just did?

Take everything with a pinch of salt.

People never try to understand the reasons.

They think oww it sounds bad, complain.

Socialism isn't perfect, capitalism isn't perfect therefore arguing for which is right is like arguing who is more retarded. You may win but you are still a retard :rolleyes:

Edited by Allied General, 20 May 2005 - 11:03 AM.

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#216 Banshee

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Posted 20 May 2005 - 01:38 PM

I'm the one who's an easy target yet you're the one who hasn't proved any statements at all, and still refuse to do so?


Didn't I? By mentioning a counter example, I'm breaking your afirmation.

Stalin killed millions of people. Lenin didn't. Both were socialists.



Let me put it this way, if we were living in 1938 Germany, you would be the first person on the bandwagon saying "Hitler isn't lying about anything!" while I'm finding the fastest way to get out of there. I haven't seen you post anything critical, it's been the same regurgitation of the "socialism was not a system that Nazi Germany used" line that every other misguided individual concerning the subject talks about.


- Have you ever stopped to find out the definition of socialism?

Socialism is an ideology that, at its most elemental, is defined by the belief that a society could exist in which individuals control the means of power, and therefore the means of production, and are not subjected to the ownership, control, or power structures of others.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism


Now, you are saying that socialism kills millions and you are trying to link nazism with socialism. They have some similarities, but they are different.

It's become one of the easiest ways to discount the failures of Marx's idealogy so that the world is prepared for another "try it and see" nation. How many people have to die before you all finally figure out that socialism has brought very little to the world besides more death, destruction and hate?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Yea, wrongly applied socialisms brought that. I personally don't agree with socialist theories (it would be hipocrisy from me if I agreed with it, since I wanna start my own business), but I respect it. What I really hate is comunism, where they put everyone in the same level: the lowest level possible :|. This kind of thing really doesn't work with humanity.
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#217 Allied General

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Posted 20 May 2005 - 02:15 PM

Yea, wrongly applied socialisms brought that. I personally don't agree with socialist theories (it would be hipocrisy from me if I agreed with it, since I wanna start my own business), but I respect it. What I really hate is comunism, where they put everyone in the same level: the lowest level possible :|. This kind of thing really doesn't work with humanity.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


In communist not everyone is on the same level.

The leaders and army are on a "fairer" level :rolleyes:
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#218 Banshee

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Posted 20 May 2005 - 03:48 PM

Yea, you're right. They are in a fine level and the rest is fucked up.
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#219 Allied General

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Posted 20 May 2005 - 03:50 PM

Yea, you're right. They are in a fine level and the rest is fucked up.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


thats a problem with socialist government styles, its power for the people, but that means government centralised control cannot exist.

As such anarchy.

People in power will always have temptation.

The only solution well at least according to the guy who created the concept for AI is for machines to decide, thats the only way a socialist society could work.

The problem with capitalism is that restribution of wealth is not handled in an effective manner or is discouraged. But at least in this unfair society you have an opportunity to change it but it takes a LONG time ...

Edited by Allied General, 20 May 2005 - 03:53 PM.

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#220 Guest_ImmoMan_*

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Posted 20 May 2005 - 04:37 PM

Still in capitalism it is very very hard (if not impossible without a great deal of luck) to get much higher when you start at the bottom. And the people that are a the top today have probably never even seen the bottom. A common concept in capitalism; the poor stay poor and the rich get richer.

The people that complain they're paying for the poor have never really understood the concept of socialism. The idea of it is that everyone is equal, no matter what. I can't see what's wrong with that really, so I don't understand why there is so much anti-socialism here. While I don't believe in 100% state-controlled business and therefore am not a full socialist, I do believe that it is the task and duty of the government to keep things equal. Impose taxes on the rich, and help the poor with the money gained from those taxes. It is a very social thing to do, hence the name. A saying which could be the whole basis of socialism goes as follows:

'De sterkste schouders zullen de zwaarste lasten moeten dragen.'
(The strongest shoulders will carry the heaviest loads)

Just a few weeks ago there was a big scandal here as it became known that the directors of NUON and Essent (electricity companies) were making over €800 000 a year, even more than the prime minister. In that case I would say, true to socialism, that they hand out over 50% of that, and that it be used to help people who are unemployed, unable to work or in other problematic situations. I'm sure that if someone makes such a large sum of money they can survive with less than half of it. People can survive with €10 000 a year, so I'm sure €400 000 won't be a problem.

Socialism does not inherently believe in a privilege to certain groups. As the whole concept of socialism is equal rights, chances and pay, there should be no real 'groups'. The Netherlands is one of the most tolerant countries in the world, and even then it gets abused by people who feel like stirring up trouble. I believe that if everyone would be smart enough to just stick to the rules and be nice, share, do as much as you can for society, there would be no problems at all. Unfortunately it is sad that it is usually political and religious extremists that mess it up. But I do not make any distinction between these groups, I consider them all a bunch of idiots.

Another sad thing is that it is always certain people that mess it up for a much larger group. Extremist muslims in Afghanistan, Iran and Palestine attract attention, and suddenly everyone thinks that Islam is evil. Even ACK said it, so that proves my point. But there is a big difference between the Qur'an's islam and the islam of modern day muslims. ACK quoted some sentences from the Qur'an, which I unfortunately can't verify since I lack a copy of the book myself, in which certain aspects come forward that would show the modern islam to be agressive and stupid. However, I would argue that the vast majority of muslims do not follow the Qur'an to the letter. Just like christians do not follow the bible word for word. If they did, then we would still live in the early first millennium, and a post like this would have resulted in getting my head chopped off, getting hung, stoned or crucified by either a muslim or a christian for supporting another religion. Or they would do it if they found out I was an atheist. So we can only be glad that the religion has evolved. America has its own share of extremist christians (see http://www.mk-magazi...ives/001567.php for a humourous yet frightening example), just like the middle east has its own share of religious fanatics. The only difference is that in one place the fanatics turn militant and in the other they don't. But to use that as an argument that the religion itself is hateful and destructive, in this light would be ignorant, shallow and short-sighted.

This basically sums up what I think of, as a socialist. It seems that there is a lot of misconception regarding the ideology here so I thought I'd explain it a bit more, and I hope this helped.




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