172 replies to this topic

[Duckzilla]

http://www.henneth-a...ew.cfm?evid=351

 

Tolkien called them orcs in FOTR. We named them Moria Orcs for a reason.

But your models are based on the movies where they are goblins, not orcs, which is also what they would be in just about any other fantasy lore due to their size, skills, culture, armor and appearance. As described by Wikipedia - "A goblin is a monstrous creature from European folklore, first attested in stories from the Middle Ages. They are ascribed various and conflicting abilities, temperaments and appearances depending on the story and country of origin. They are almost always small and grotesque, mischievous or outright malicious, and greedy, especially for gold and jewelry."

Furthermore, I find it hard to believe that your naming came from the books and not a Hobbit trilogy films, as not a single mod developer or game creator has ever called them orcs up until the Hobbit films were released ;-) 

 

But to be honest that is besides the point, as I honestly don't think it is major what you call Moria Goblins in the Age of the Ring, as you absolutely perfected their looks, skills, amount of health they have per unit and/or any other balance related stuff ;-)

So I was more interested in developers looking into my balance change proposals not as much what units are called :-)

Kind regards!

[Dúnedain76]

They're orcs mate.

[Duckzilla]

They're orcs mate.

Love how you ignored everything else I mentioned and went on full denial mode telling me that they are orcs. Well yes as per books they are and so is the chieftain in black mail that stabbed Frodo, not a troll ;-). But Lord of the Rings films clearly established them as Goblins. No matter, yet I do find it ironic that you use goblin skins for orcs characters (since let's be honest their description in the books is nothing like they are presented in the films;-) )

Also have you actually called them orcs yourself prior to Hobbit trilogy release? XD Doubt it...

None the less, it is pointless from a psychological perspective trying to persuade you, no matter how reasonable my arguments are and how much I back them up by facts, the more I do so the more you gonna go full on defensive denial, especially since I am not a creator of the mode and didnt participate in the origins of ideas/creation brainstorming. 

The naming, however, was really a minor point in my post, but I honestly doubt you will look into my post with any seriousness at all now, since people (especially online) built up a resentment feeling for those who prove them wrong or point their mistakes out ;-) 

[Mathijs]

http://tolkiengatewa...rcs_and_goblins

 

European folklore isn't relevant. Tolkien intended that orcs and goblins are the same thing. There's no debate here.

[Dúnedain76]

As for the other stuff, we read it. The balance testers can make judge of it themselves.

[Duckzilla]

http://tolkiengatewa...rcs_and_goblins

 

European folklore isn't relevant. Tolkien intended that orcs and goblins are the same thing. There's no debate here.

So why do you have Goblins in the game at all? Pardon the pun but it is pretty contradictory to have Goblins in the game at all according to your statement ;-)

P.S. And again - ask yourself, dont need to tell me - just yourself did you at any time by any means called them orcs after Lord of the Rings films and prior to Hobbit Trilogy?

[Mathijs]

We have Moria Orcs and Goblin-towners in AotR. Both are orcs, both are goblins, because goblins and orcs in Tolkien are the same thing. We have Gundabad goblins, Black Uruk goblins, etc. The word means the same. 

 

As to your question - I'm not sure what this is supposed to mean?

[Duckzilla]

We have Moria Orcs and Goblin-towners in AotR. Both are orcs, both are goblins, because goblins and orcs in Tolkien are the same thing. We have Gundabad goblins, Black Uruk goblins, etc. The word means the same. 

 

As to your question - I'm not sure what this is supposed to mean?

I know that they are the same.

My point was that Goblins were successfully established in the Lord of the Rings series and everyone was referring to them as such; furthermore, just about everyone was expecting them to look the part in the Hobbit Trilogy, but PJ just basically f****d it up, simply due to his laziness or lack of care or pure arrogance; what ever it was he just stuffed it up. Along side Radaghast, Beorn, Goblin King and many other characters.

Nevertheless, the point I was making here was that the name is really not that important I was more concerned about some of your balance issues: which is Gondor Knights, Uruk Pikes, Soldiers of Rhun and other things that I mentioned in the topic above.

I think creators of Edain Mode got the Calvary balance more or less correct, while you did well with infantry (Gondor Soldiers, Men of Westfold etc.) Just Soldiers of Rhun needs addressing as they should not be stronger than Soldiers of Gondor or Men of Westfold if you are to stick to the lore of the LOTR universe.

But so far I had no replies in regards to my balance proposal what so ever. Yet we had this massive discussion about Moria Orcs/Goblins name, which really is not that important...

Kind regards.

[Alecut3355667788]

May someone change my account name and profile name to Alecut33556676 please 

[zacharta]

Campaign Level 2 is still a little broken. Specifically the defense of Bree. A few factors lead to the perfect storm of frustration.

 

Firstly, only heroes can capture buildings, forcing you to put your hobbits at risk, even though the enemy seems to instantly capture any buildings as soon as they touch them. 

 

Second, the enemy has considerably greater forces than you, and most of the later attacks require the all of your commands points to be concentrated in one force which you must awkwardly navigate around Bree. One can see how the need to concentrate your forces to defeat the enemy can make it difficult to prevent enemies from insta-stealing your buildings. 

 

Third and perhaps most important, the time you have to prepare for the attacks is far too short. You don't have enough time to come to grips with your resources, your small command points, the units you have to choose from and thus how you should position them to maximize your damage to the enemy. If given even two minutes I feel like this would be much more manageable, that and more command points so you can have a balanced squad defending each inn. Time between attacks is also a joke, by the time I get the "Nazgul have attacked the west gate" message I'm getting another in like 10 seconds that they have attacked the east, north, then south... Like might as well say "Nazgul are attacking your gates quickly in all cardinal directions, better protect the prancing pony dips***t!"

 

Lastly the enemies A.I. seems far too simplistic. They simply bum-rush the prancing pony ignoring troops you may have set up to block them, literally only stopping to get the hobbits, but once engaged literally attacking them with the hobbits does not disengage them. I probably don't need to tell you how biased this game is towards mobs attacking building vs mobs attacking those attacking buildings, but essentially the second one of the battalions of risen-dunedain reach the Prancing Pony, their surface area is so low I can't kill them fast enough to prevent the next squad from posting up. I've tied like 10 times and everytime it ends with a squad of risen-dunedain surrounding the pony and my troops chipping away racing fast clock of a health bar the pony has. 

 

I think greater time between waves would fix it, greater commands points/resources, less unfair capture mechanics, or simply better a.i. for the dunedain so they don't mindlessly surround the prancing pony every time. 

 

It is all exacerbated by the fact that this is literally level 2.  

[Baraaduk]

Hello all,

 

I've enjoyed the AOTR mod quite a bit. Specifically with the new Dol Guldur faction. Great stuff so far.

 

I had a suggestion pertaining to custom heroes. I understand that there's been some additions that come with creating custom heroes in Age of the Ring.

 

Given the addition of Dol Guldur I thought it would be cool to add maybe one or two new types of custom hero types belonging to them. Adding a Spiderling hero type, or a Wight / Undead hero type would seem like a great addition.

 

Spider hero powers can follow closely with those already establish; for example: Burrow, Fear, De-buff, Spiderling Summon, Poison, Rooting / Stun, etc.

Wight / Undead heroes may require more newly established powers, yet not straining to far from other evil heroes; for example: Summon units / tomb structure, fear power, invulnerability / phasing, morgul blade mechanic power, etc.

 

Although for me it may be simple in theory to add new custom hero types and powers, i'm sure its a lot more complex than it looks. I understand the AOTR team is very busy and still has two more factions to put out before the game comes full circle but I'd hope you'd consider my idea of putting forth new custom hero types based on Dol Guldur. For me and my friends it would make the game even better then it already is.

 

Thank you for your time!

[Esparado87]

So the Blue Wizards are not coming to any faction, but what if you could recruit them from a inn/special building on a king of the hill map located in Rhun/the east?

 

If a Good faction recruits them, then they will have good themed powers.

If a Evil faction recruits them, then they will have evil themed powers.

 

Kinda like how you can only recruit Dol Amroth Archers on The Dol Amroth map.

Edited by Esparado87, 08 June 2020 - 06:47 PM.

[Esparado87]

I have noticed that pretty much all assets (summons, powers, units e.t.c) from bfme2 and rotwk are used/going to be used somehow. all except Awaken Wyrm power.

Was there something wrong with that power since it will not be used in any faction (Misty Mountains/Haradwaith?), i thought that power was fixed in the unofficial patch 2.02 over a decade ago?

[EditorPunk]

@Dúnedain76

@Mathijs

 

Is this the feedback thread? Great mod for it's assets and VO work.

 

Dol Guldur seems to have some issues on certain maps. I tried the faction on skirmish, and liked it enough to go over to War of the Ring mode and see it in action there.

 

The faction seems to have issues when starting without a base in WotR mode: AI aggression is pretty direct in this game, and requires the player to meet the enemy head on in the first few minutes of the match if you brought an army. However, the Dol Goldur design means that the army is immediately taking damage & loses if it starts without the Necromancer. You'd need to be playing WotR for some time already to get starting units that don't take attrition: this is quite punishing. I'm sure I can do it, but the design has me jumping through hoops to make it work. The faction wiki describes it as a heavy necromancy army, but in the early WotR game pulling this off seems too difficult if there isn't a single structure built to start with.

• In multi or skirmish, the pacing would seem fine(?). I'm making no comment as to that here, just WotR.
• Dol Guldur in the hands of the AI in WotR mode also has early game issues, to the point where it's trivial fighting them. They follow the same build order, and entirely stop any base-building once their last worker is spent. I suppose they could pump a worker out of the tower they built, but I never see them do.

The Dol Guldur faction has an issue when starting on the vanilla Dol Guldur map: the fortress catapults are missing. Dol Guldur is already an easy fortress to lay siege to, and the lack of standard defenses seems like an oversight.

• Furthermore, I've only tested this on WotR fortress maps, but obtaining the ring as Dol Guldur allows the player to build Sauron. If the Necromancer is already built, he too receives the typical ring bonuses.

Other bugs I've seen out and about with the mod: AI is very passive in the role of laying siege on one of the new lovely siege maps. Maps like Dol Amroth of Calas Galadhon have a totally inert AI.

• Will the WotR receive the new updated fortress maps like Rivendell, Dol Guldur, and Mithlond?

The Rivendell faction in the WotR mode has Elladan and Elrohir taking up a precious power point tier position. In the vast majority of matches, that power will be a filler with no use.

 

 

**CAMPAIGN**

The first moria map is lovely. I'm surprised you left the right third of the map unused. Very fun exploration with the light mechanic.

• The introduction midway of Balin's escape to a larger hall is appreciated. However, it's presence sets up the expectation for the continuation of this side story, as does the dialogue between Gandalf and Gimli. So the end result is that the pacing on this map and the next feel odd. It the player's gut, we're expected a round 2 with Balin, whether that be in the Moria map, or the Khazad-Dum map. It'd be acceptable if the original story's and movie pacing in the record room be divided with a Balin sequence of its own, before the orcs and troll boss arrive in the tomb.

 

The Khaza-Dum map has an issue in the final chamber with the Balrog- the fire assets don't load in every game. In my first few attempt on the map, I noticed smoke, and was wondering why the heroes were taking heavy damage. I played perhaps 5 times before a load initialized the flame graphics, and the ease increased expectedly.

• Design-wise, you could guide the player a bit more smartly in the 'kill the goblin shamans blocking the bridge phase': it's not intuitive to find these little guys currently, and causes frustration that can be ironed out by a design that suggests the objective clearly.

Edited by EditorPunk, 18 June 2020 - 04:38 AM.

[Thranduil_King]

I am sure that many problems in WotR and especially with DG and AI in general will be solved in the future, i'm sure that it can be improved and be better. Good tip without a doubt

[EditorPunk]

Well they need feedback, just like any Q&A or beta process. The goal is to point out discrepancies.

 

Speaking of which:

 

• Dol Guldur flaming arrows do not set Ents on fire, nor do bonus damage to Ents. Has this feature been broadly removed for all instances of flaming arrows, or is it just Dol Guldur has this as an oversight?

[leseih]

I'm a noob and am having trouble getting past the first battle in "The Lord of the Rings" campaign. Any tips? I think it's hard because the command point is so low and there are so many orcs coming after you all the time.

Edited by leseih, 24 June 2020 - 02:43 AM.

[EditorPunk]

I'm a noob and am having trouble getting past the first battle in "The Lord of the Rings" campaign. Any tips? I think it's hard because the command point is so low and there are so many orcs coming after you all the time.

It was a fun battle, but it required you to conserve troops. Building troops is a non-option, as the mission will give you the necessary troops in numbers that exceed the pop cap (command points). If you're ever at the point that you can train troops, you have already lost the mission. With Isildur and Elrond conserve your units up until the north-western base is destroyed, which triggers the arrival of Elendil and Gil-galad: this puts you at above 500 pop cap. DO NOT LOSE ANY UNITS FROM HERE ON!

 

On the first plateau to the north concentrate your forces in a wide line and engage the enemy. A rear ambush army will arrive in the far west- if you've built structures there they will destroy them (good, that gives you time). Don't split your army to deal with this ambush- remain fully concentrated on the first plateau. You ought to be able to conserve your battalions and wrap up the stream of units coming from the North before the ambushers arrive to rear charge your combat line. With your pop cap still at around 500, and when fully healed with all abilities off cool down, only then should you march through the gates up to the second plateau.

 

At the second plateau, utilize both Elendil's and Gil-Galad's abilities before the cutscene- the quicker you can kill the Nazgul, the quicker you trigger Sauron's arrival. Do not use Elrond's nor Isildur's abilities until after the cutscene when Sauron is at your front line. Sauron will walk generally in Isildur's direction- keep Elrond away from Sauron, and keep Isildur slightly apart from you front line. As Sauron's attack cause massive area of effect damage, nesting Isildur in your front line will cause your forces to buckle quicker. At this point it's a race against time, keeping enough troops to keep Elrond protected & alive, and keeping Isildur healthy enough to uninterruptedly attack Sauron with all abilities.

 

It's not a perfect scenario, due to the command pop limit and difficulty spikes. The buildings are only useful to you as a speedbump for an ambushing enemy, and for the fountain you can build. If you don't have enough troops for the final battle, you will lose no matter what.

Edited by EditorPunk, 25 June 2020 - 09:01 PM.

[leseih]

I'm a noob and am having trouble getting past the first battle in "The Lord of the Rings" campaign. Any tips? I think it's hard because the command point is so low and there are so many orcs coming after you all the time.

It was a fun battle, but it required you to conserve troops. Building troops is a non-option, as the mission will give you the necessary troops in numbers that exceed the pop cap (command points). If you're ever at the point that you can train troops, you have already lost the mission. With Isildur and Elrond conserve your units up until the north-western base is destroyed, which triggers the arrival of Elendil and Gil-galad: this puts you at above 500 pop cap. DO NOT LOSE ANY UNITS FROM HERE ON!

On the first plateau to the north concentrate your forces in a wide line and engage the enemy. A rear ambush army will arrive in the far west- if you've built structures there they will destroy them (good, that gives you time). Don't split your army to deal with this ambush- remain fully concentrated on the first plateau. You ought to be able to conserve your battalions and wrap up the stream of units coming from the North before the ambushers arrive to rear charge your combat line. With your pop cap still at around 500, and when fully healed with all abilities off cool down, only then should you march through the gates up to the second plateau.

At the second plateau, utilize both Elendil's and Gil-Galad's abilities before the cutscene- the quicker you can kill the Nazgul, the quicker you trigger Sauron's arrival. Do not use Elrond's nor Isildur's abilities until after the cutscene when Sauron is at your front line. Sauron will walk generally in Isildur's direction- keep Elrond away from Sauron, and keep Isildur slightly apart from you front line. As Sauron's attack cause massive area of effect damage, nesting Isildur in your front line will cause your forces to buckle quicker. At this point it's a race against time, keeping enough troops to keep Elrond protected & alive, and keeping Isildur healthy enough to uninterruptedly attack Sauron with all abilities.

It's not a perfect scenario, due to the command pop limit and difficulty spikes. The buildings are only useful to you as a speedbump for an ambushing enemy, and for the fountain you can build. If you don't have enough troops for the final battle, you will lose no matter what.

[Bren411]

Suggestion

Dol Guldur: Siege Limitations

Unit: A (perhaps higher tier) support unit with a low unit limit dedicated to stop decay or something similar

Reasons: Decay becomes a problem when Necromancer dies in a attack (naturally) or when is unavailable like WoTR or simply too big of an army (leads to massive clumpage aoe death or Passive dmg). Mostly a problem when in mid-late game multiplayer, ai doesn't prioritize the Necromancer but Humans love to focus fire him. Sieges become elite only unless you build cross map undead tower highways which are doable and funny/cool but are easily disrupted. Also an attack is difficult to push back when buildings are being destroyed and the Necromancer is elsewhere in force especially siege factions like Isengard's long range weapons render defense null even if lightly guarded due to passive dmg

Conclusion: Sustained sieges are very difficult especially with late game dps skills and spells from human players to the Necromancer. Attacking armies often get shelled to pieces due to clumpage around the Necromancer with little workaround (as far as I know). Reinforcements are almost unheard of because passive dmg when attacking. Defending your base against long ranges is in some cases insurmountable if Necromancer is NA. As soon as QRF arrives they have to take passive dmg and attack at halfish health against well trained equipped units and rinse repeat. Dul Guldor's offensive might and in some cases defensive are crippled to the extreme from one "man" being unavailable to go elsewhere quickly.

P.S. Dol Guldur is one of my favorite faction and it utterly amazes me all the time from the design to the thought put into it (Not to mention the rest of the mod). I apologize if this is in the works or already suggested but I did my due diligence to try and make sure it wasn't. Thank you so much for all the hard work on this mod.