264 replies to this topic

[thudo]

All voices need processing -- it was already extremely tacking over the many years just to coordinate that part of the workflow.

 

Like all our projects, we lack a full time reliable and committed 3d dev.

[Roderick]

Hey, let me try something this month.

[ZeusHammer]

As far as I remember, back in Dark Crusade (unpatched version) broadsides used to come out in squads of three, and they did lack a reinforce button. Chaos horrors too lacked a reinforce button too, I can't remember when that got fixed. I know it's little help code-wise, but perhaps... there's something to break so the button won't show

 

Anyway... test run here too with build 0.74. It's mostly text things and it's likely all known already, but...

• Scouts -> Description says they can become infiltrated with research, but in fact they come out infiltrated already.
• Ballecry ability (for the primary commander) -> research text still mentions "Force commander".
• "The squad gets stronger as it loses members" -> It's somehow... hard to perceive, I think, without visual hints. Stronger how?
• Lone wolf -> the description says it can choose its own wargear, but it just comes out with hammer and shield, no customization options. Is it for future iterations?

Also, I tried to produce a landspeeder and got a pink box. Log file...

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

GAME -- Preloading all models...
RENDER ANIM -- Art/EBPs/Races/Space__Wolves/Troops/Land_Raider: Not a valid chunky file!
RENDER ANIM -- Art/EBPs/Races/Space__Wolves/Troops/Land_Raider_redeemer: Not a valid chunk header!
RENDER ANIM -- Art/EBPs/Races/Space__Wolves/Troops/Land_Speeder_codex: Not a valid chunky file!

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Incidentally, I only tried the land raider crusader in-game, so I got lucky, I guess. Could it be a problem when I downloaded the archive? My skirmish also took a very long while to load, even though I played the mod by itself. It only took that much time with, like, 7 races at once or with UA. Maybe it was just my computer making some introspection about the meaning of life or about its registry (could be likewise important to it) : /

 

I shall test balance after I burn out of my hype for the new many things I am seeing. I'm still missing a few mods and builds

Edited by ZeusHammer, 02 November 2017 - 08:34 PM.

[fuggles]

No pink speeders here...? Weird. No problems with redeemer. Maybe corrupt download.

Lone wolves can pick their own gear, this one picked frost hammer and storm shield! No customisation. Maybe change of ucs needed.

Horrors disable the reinforcement panel, which in turn means no weapons or sergeants sadly.

You will see the surviving members get more health each time one dies.

Scout ucs and battlecry can be changed. Don't know why slow load unless it's the music? Not noticed it.

[Roderick]

There are a lot of soundtracks. Good choice.

[ZeusHammer]

Lone wolves can pick their own gear, this one picked frost hammer and storm shield! No customisation. Maybe change of ucs needed.

 

It happened twice. Hard luck blues

Anyway, I'll download again. I have been having problems downloading because of my internet connection : /

[Roderick]

Have lone wolves random weapons really?

[fuggles]

No, but in fluff they can, this is considered the best pick though on tt.

[ZeusHammer]

No, but in fluff they can, this is considered the best pick though on tt.

 

I feel I was lied to some four posts ago then :'(

(I know it was just me giving a wrong interpretation, worry not )

 

No pink speeders here...? Weird. No problems with redeemer. Maybe corrupt download.

 

Yes. I downloaded and reinstalled again. No pink boxes and much faster skirmish loading time. Sorry for the false alarm.

[ZeusHammer]

Again problems with models... This time I tried playing AGAINST them, using SM. Loading the skirmish took longer than I liked, and as I ran into "blood claws", they were a set of pink boxes.

From the warnings.txt file...

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

GAME -- Preloading all models...
RENDER ANIM -- Art/EBPs/Races/Space__Wolves/Troops/space_marine_vanguard: String buffer overrun!
RENDER ANIM -- 'art/ebps/races/space__wolves/texture_share/land_speeder_space_marine': Not a valid chunky file!
RENDER ANIM -- 'art/ebps/races/space__wolves/texture_share/land_speeder': Not a valid chunky file!
RENDER ANIM -- Art/EBPs/Races/Space__Wolves/Troops/librarian: String buffer overrun!
RENDER ANIM -- art/ebps/races/space__wolves/troops/space_marine_tactical: String buffer overrun!
GAME -- Applying Team Colours...
TEAM COLOUR -- 'DATA:art\ebps\races\space__wolves\texture_share\land_speeder_codex_parts_default.wtp': Not a valid chunk header!

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

And this is from "render model usage log.txt"

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

RENDER MODEL USAGE -- Loading model 'art/ebps/races/space__wolves/base_mesh/space_marine_unit'...
RENDER MODEL USAGE -- Loading model 'Art/EBPs/Races/Space__Wolves/Troops/space_marine_vanguard'...
RENDER MODEL USAGE -- Loading model 'art/ebps/missingmodel'...
RENDER MODEL USAGE -- Loading model 'Art/EBPs/Races/Space__Wolves/Troops/runepriest'...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

With a few more "Loading model 'art/ebps/missingmodel'..." too. I still have the logs in any case, do tell me if I should look somewhere else.

 

Blood claws kept being a set of pink boxes on the next game (again me SM vs AI SW), and the next after that (me SW against AI random). Shall I attach the whole log? It feels as if I am getting file corruption for this module alone for some reason. As of my last post here, I had no pink boxes with landspeeders nor anything, and certainly not with blood claws. Am I jinxed or something?

 

[thudo]

Hmmm no there are no such art issues on my end.. strange..

[fuggles]

No issues this end either m copy blood claws from your dl that worked?

[ZeusHammer]

The last download link you posted, brother fuggles. After downloading again and re-extracting, I had no problems with landspeeders anymore. This was the second time I tried after that, and... Now the bloodclaw issue. I'll re-extract again. I know it worked at least once, but it still leaves me puzzled... .

Could it have anything to do with CornCobFunMod or Galaxy on Fire? Those are the only two non-race mods I have, though I haven't activated either since I joined here. I see some conflict on localization from logs, but... I'm not sure why it should affect art.

I'll keep reporting (read: complaining ) if PINK BWAXXES appear again. I hope it's specific just to my computer (but that it doesn't mean it's breaking down). Sorry for the trouble :(

[ZeusHammer]

Ok, I re-extracted things again, and I could play a few games without pink boxes (or at least, I ended the game before I could see any ).

 

I played vanilla SM vs SW on Biffy's Peril (4p, 5 strategic points for each starting location, plus 4 relics, 4 slag deposits and one critical location) at Insane.

Balance considerations:

• This is a rather large map with lots of resources, I have found out that it pays off to build 3 squads at first to start capturing points ASAP (mind you, versus AI). With Space Wolves, I managed to build blood claws and scouts so that at the end of the day I had resumed my usual pace. Scouts build fast enough to allow you to catch up with the time you have to spend building barracks. However...
• Scouts are infiltrated by default, no need for researches. They seem to cause not too much nor too little damage given their squad size and the fact that they are infiltrated, but they can really turn the tide once you give them stalker bolters. When I played SW vs SM, even though I'm not sure why the AI didn't employ skull probes (or maybe it did but they went down fast), I noticed that my scouts killed SM squads... quite efficiently. I'm talking about marine troops in cover (my scouts were in cover too, I don't know if that denies both troops the cover bonus). Their morale seemed to go down fast too, not sure if because of the losses or because the weapon itself is effective against morale. I think it could be abused, but I'll be sure to test it against other races as well (maybe with Unification ).
• I managed to beat them with Vanilla SM, but it took me 15-to-20 minutes. It was one map, maybe it'll be different on others, but so far I think that makes them pleasently challenging, at least as far as AI is concerned (it normally takes me about 15 minutes to finish). I must say I'm very happy so far.

 

[ZeusHammer]

Update: I played vs IG and Tau, always on Biffy's Peril, Insane. Took 12-13 minutes each.

• Imperial Guard -> The stalker bolter is way too effective against IG squads. The only minor annoyance I had was thanks to psykers in their command squad, and the long-range scan every so often. The stalker bolter was effective against their command squad, builders deployed HW team and structures too. I built a grey hunter pack just for show, but I didn't really use it for much more than capturing points in front of the enemy base. The scouts did most of the killing, the long fangs with lascannons helped with structures. I used landspeeders to distract a turret at some point, but did not build blood claws at all. Couldn't test staker bolters against vehicles as of this fight, but as I said, they were quite effective against structures, at least LP, turrets and vehicle factory.
• Tau -> The AI didn't produce vespids, and maybe that's why I had it rather easy. Stalker bolters effective against any infantry (including the Tau commander). Only the kroot took a while longer taking down, because of their numbers. Here I could see test against vehicles. It is Tau vehicles (skyray and stealth-transport-whose-name-comes-elusive-as-of-now), so they're not too sturdy to begin with, but they still seemed to take quite some damage if not for the builders healing them (and being scrapped). I had wolves to detect stealthsuit, they did good damage to the transport too, but I had performed the wolf research in the armory, but the description says it only increases health (and the number of wolves following the commander). I couldn't fire continuously on the skyrays because I had to avoid incoming missile barrages. Here I built neither grey hunter packs nor blood claws.

I also noticed some targeting issue: sometimes an enemy squad would be just beside my scouts, I'd point them at it, and either they had to move first (had this issue with kroot) or they would keep firing to their previous target (vs IG they'd keep targeting a LP rather than infantry). Also against the Tau I had a few scouts within firing range from a building, some not (within the same squad); as I gave the attack order, those out of range would stay in place. Maybe this is a non-issue, like when, for instance, an IG squad with grenade launchers gets just within firing range of the granade launcher, while the guardsmen with lasguns stand and watch, or squads with heavy bolters and missile launchers.

 

I will keep posting as I test agains vanilla races. Maybe I should keep a log and post it all at once.

 

Side-note: would anyone know on the spot why rocket launchers would be better than lascannons for long fangs, and vice-versa?

[ZeusHammer]

Update: Orks - about 16 minutes.

• Had more of a challenge, mostly because of the big mek (rather sturdy and can detect infiltrators). However stalker bolters were effective against every ork infantry, quite so against big mek and mega-armored nobz too. I went for four scout squads as I saw orks outnumbering me, and that did it.
• Targeting issue persists: my scouts charged at the AI's mega-armored nobz rather than shoot them (no, they weren't going melee, nor had a melee stance, nor did I use the "attack melee" button), I had a better result having them stop in their tracks and using a "hold position" stance (the blue one ). I had this issue against buildings too: scouts stalker bolter can shoot at WAAAGH! banners without getting within spotting range, but at some point they preferred getting closer to get shot. Also, sometimes a unit with pistol will fire while the ones with the bolter won't, it kind of gets "fixed" if you move them around.

Here I observed strange behaviours against armored targets: while stalker bolters seemed to be generally effective against structures, they didn't seem to be effective against vehicles. And in particular, lascannons seemed not to cause damage to a single killa kan the AI had produced. However, I think it may have been due to the swarm of gretchins infiltrated repearing it before I finally took notice and called the wolves in.

 

I can only test against AI, I think I may need a human buddy sometimes. I may also be able to recruit someone myself, if you give me permission to (of course I'd have him/them join Revora first and agree to the non-discolusre terms).

[Roderick]

Are you often relying on scouts rather than BCs or GWs? do you think the mod is biased towards them?

[ZeusHammer]

Side-note: I'm using a 1-based Tier enumeration when speaking, though I know that HQ upgrades are labeled I and II, thus making the base HQ a 0. Should I align to a 0-based Tier enumeration or is that fine?

 

Are you often relying on scouts rather than BCs or GWs? do you think the mod is biased towards them?

 

I am not sure about what you mean by "biased"... BC and GW should be primary troops and they perform rather fine in that regard. However they take long to build, and they are expensive. While they are somehow cost-effective, you need more squads early in the game to capture strategic points (or at least this may pay off when playing on a 4p map in two players). With that in mind, you will employ scouts as soon as you realize how fast they get trained, and after that you'll come to prefer them to other squads once you realize their damage potential, while likely keeping GW and BC for support/distraction (five flamers on a GW squad do cause problems to enemy infantry and also enemy player morale). It is true that I used neither of them against Tau nor Orks.

 

What I am trying to see is if there's any effective counter to spamming scouts with stalker bolter. So far I have been able to outsmart the AI of vanilla races (I know that there's more to be ashamed than proud of ), and I am not sure that scout spam wouldn't break the game for human players too. Marine scouts do become effective against infantry and morale with sniper rifles, however those are very slow-firing weapons, and you can only infiltrate scouts at Tier II. Conversely here you have a fast-firing, high-damage weapon on troops that are infiltrated by default at Tier I.

I want to be sure that they do make the game easy to win if abused before stating they need a nerf (always on personal consideration, of course). I have a few suggestions in mind already, not necessarily mutually exclusive, but I want to make sure they are needed. These would be:

• Make infiltration a Tier II research;
• Have the stalker bolter deal less damage (... I think it shouldn't be too much more powerful than vanilla sniper rifle, considering damage*rate-of-fire);
• Unlock stalker bolters at Tier II;
  • This would make scouts useless at Tier 1 except for capping, more or less like Tau stealthsuit. In this case the default infiltration feature would make them more durable while not as lethal as the weapon upgrade.
• Have the stalker bolter damage increase with the "target finders" research, so it's an "acceptable" weapon at Tier 1, while becoming gradually more powerful at later tiers (where the enemy also has more possibilities to detect them).

Nerfing damage and/or improving it gradually while still keeping scouts somewhat useful is no easy feature to achieve, that's why I'd like to find out that scout spam does have a hard counter. The fact that I could defeat the AI with that on a specific map doesn't mean it would be effective against a human player, however scouts do seem so far more effective than they could be meant to be.

[fuggles]

It can go back a tier I think.

[Roderick]

Well, the scouts are veterans so that they should be better than other SM scouts performance (hence the initial infiltration). I am thinking of replacing the standard heads somehow to give them an old appearance instead of young men.

 

(Conversely, the BC and skyclaws should perform underaverage compared to other SM chapters troops like the ASM).

 

This model of scout is the one used by DA and also by neophytes in BT I think, and both have the stalker bolter. Are they having the same stats and upgrades, disregarding the infiltration?

 

I am grateful for your thorough analysis, the gameplay of SW should not be oriented to scout spamming but rather a direct approach with cc and ranged heavy inf from the beginning.

 

 

It can go back a tier I think.

 

What is "it"?

Edited by Roderick, 09 November 2017 - 04:20 PM.