385 replies to this topic

[Allied General]

don't blame governments, blame the individuals who form a collective society who choose not act.

Apathy is the main reason why the world is sh*t

Apathy caused Hitler to rise to power and last for as long as he did.

If the league of nations had has military might we could have erase that stain a long time ago but the people elected were an bunch of numbskulls.

So I blame individualism for not being more vocal.

That is the main point: the world is messed up cos we can't be arsed to get out bed, if you want to be pro-active by all means but don't bitch about how righteous you are when most of us can't be arsed.

[Ash]

Don't bitch about how "righteous" I am when YOU can't be arsed.
Don't bitch about the apathy of the world when you are among them.

[Allied General]

Don't bitch about how "righteous" I am when YOU can't be arsed.
Don't bitch about the apathy of the world when you are among them.

I'm not bitching I'm the voice for the world as the whole, as we can't be arsed individuals we say f off.

Also Comrade Jerkov you are even a bigger hypocrite, as you claim to an follower of communism but what are you doing right now?

Flaming to people who make valid points on an PC.

I don't see you campaigning for change or on TV.

So in the end YOU are just as lazy as I am.

So really dude if you want communism in this world how do you ACTUALLY achieve it?

I don't want examples of failed attempts but proper, pratical action

Edited by Allied General, 06 March 2006 - 02:45 PM.

[Mastermind]

I don't see why allowing all people to be prosperous instead of just a few is actually such a bad thing, and what Hostile or MM have against it so.

I don't have an issue with making everyone prosperous. I have an issue with making everyone equally prosperous. You're attempting to force equality of status on everyone, when not everyone is equal. A capitalist society provides incentive to make more of yourself, and provides more value to those we deem most valuable. I see no issues with helping the poor, trying to bring their standard of living up, but don't make me bring mine down, or remove my chance to move up to do it.

[Ash]

I'm not bitching I'm the voice for the world as the whole, as we can't be arsed individuals we say f off.

And to you, I say that if you honestly can't be arsed, why the hell are you posting about it? Surely not being arsed involves keeping schtum? Because rather than polluting the thread with your apathetic bigotry, there might be individuals out there who do care.

Also Comrade Jerkov you are even a bigger hypocrite, as you claim to an follower of communism but what are you doing right now?

Formulating a plan by which it would work. The only problem is, everyone whom I care to comment about it to on this forum has called me a crackpot without even bothering to read a word. I don't expect to convince the likes of you, AG, but what frustrates me more than anything is when it's perfectly obvious that there's nothing wrong with the way my system works, but people still bring up the failed examples of non-Communism.

Flaming to people who make valid points on an PC.

Flaming? I'd hardly call it that. I suppose any comment that attempts to dispel whatever you consider to be a valid point (when in fact I've either already dispelled the point previously, the point is complete nonsense, or the point is 'it remoevs fredom' when infact it does not, a point I've repeated till I'm blue in the face) is flaming now. Fan-fucking-tastic.

I don't see you campaigning for change or on TV.

And I don't see you campaigning against me. Besides, getting a slot on TV isn't really all too easy for an 18-year-old student. Who's to say I won't, once the finished article is complete? You presume far too much.

So in the end YOU are just as lazy as I am.

At least I'm attempting to come up with something better than the current decay, even if, through faults not entirely my own (not least of which being the fact there are only two of us formulating this from across the Internet, being faced with a barrage of hate from the likes of you, the fact I'm an 18-year-old student, NOT a political party, that fact we live in a capitalist world which breeds nothing but hate for my beliefs...want me to go on?), I haven't been able to fully implement it. What are YOU doing? Telling everyone how inferior they are either because they work less hours, or how we should just leave everything as it is to stagnate and shit on the little guy even worse.

So really dude if you want communism in this world how do you ACTUALLY achieve it?

I don't want examples of failed attempts but proper, pratical action

As if you even care, or would care to listen. But I'll humour you.

After having completed, forged and refined the manifesto, the first act is naturally to distribute it. Get the idea as broad as possible. Ideally, I'd have you capitalist mugs try and pick flaws in it, but all you'll probably do is burn it out of pure hate. But whatever.

Rallying support shouldn't be all too hard. Then, we go in for election, and start about setting the country to rights. It naturally won't happen overnight, which is why we've been devising interims and phases for the change to take place. Publicisation is perhaps the most obvious steps, massive housing projects, education system reworks...you name it, it's all there.

I do disagree with any attempts at a coup d'etat, purely because all that does is incite resentment among the population at having their freedom stolen. By having them freely elect us, we'd only be doing the people's will for the people. After all, the people will be the ones eventually living in and running the country autonomously under the new system, rather than a few old men fuelled by greed and corruption, making decisions often not really in the best interests of the masses.

[Comrade Kal]

. I see no issues with helping the poor, trying to bring their standard of living up, but don't make me bring mine down

But they live like that because you like like that. You can't conjure up wealth from nowhere.

[Mastermind]

. I see no issues with helping the poor, trying to bring their standard of living up, but don't make me bring mine down

But they live like that because you like like that. You can't conjure up wealth from nowhere.

So, it's my fault that there are poor people because I'm a middle class American going to school on financial aid and working 2 jobs to have some spending money and trying to give myself a shot at actually making something of myself? It's not like I'm one of those rich oppressors that you're so up in arms about. I'm someone who comes from a family that's comfortable, but wants more for himself.

In a capitalist society like America, an ambitious person can make themselves into a millionaire, or even billionaire. Look at Bill Gates. He didn't have a huge family wealth that he was building, he was a college student who had a good idea, and a good business sense, and he's now the richest private citizen in the world. In a capitalist society you can rise above the "class" you are born into, you just need to be motivated, and talented. If you're smart enough to get into a good school, most of them will make it possible for you to come, not turn you away because you don't have the money to pay.

[Comrade Kal]

Yes, some people can, but only a very, very small handful of people can, and when they do, there's nothing stopping them oppressing the people below them. Capitalists always ramble on about people being given opportunities, but there isn't enough wealth in the world for everyone to be a millionaire, or indeed even a few percent of the population.

[Ash]

Whereas in my system, there is no "class". You can still be whoever you want to be, and you can still be prosperous. The difference is, everyone else is doing the same; being who they want to be and being prosperous.

And MM, you can hardly say that most will not turn you away because you don't have the money. Do you have any conception of how far in debt I'll be in three and a half years' time? All thanks to our government - Tory in all but name.

It's hardly fair for us who come from low incomes. Yes, we'll be able to get an education, but we'll also be up to our eyeballs. And I can't stand owing anybody anything, purely out of principle (neither a borrower nor a lender be). So basically, it leaves us all in the shit.

Our healthcare system is turning private. The public NHS treats its patients like second-class citizens, with private treatment being about a thousand times better and quicker to get, but only after paying through the nose.

Our lower-education (school) is the same. The rich bastards get infinitely better teaching. I actually came out with better grades in a subject I taught myself (Business Studies) than I did in a subject with the teacher I otherwise would have had (ICT).

House prices are currently astronomical, and mortgages are absolutely sky height as a result. How can anyone get their foot in the door of anything beyond a shed?

Fuel and utility prices have just gone up to the tune of 22%. Wages have gone up by about 3% if that.


How is any of this fair? Somebody fucking tell me how any of this is NOT pure greed, extortion and a way to absolutely destroy the poor? Somebody else tell me why so many do nothing?

AG is right. We are a world full of morons and slaves. However, the difference between AG and I is that I actually would like things to change, and I'm trying my hardest, along with Kal, to try and think of a way to make life better for everyone. Even if there are a few bugs in the system that need to be worked out (and doubtless there are, as with any system...and so long as they're worked out, that's all part of the process) At least I'm attempting to keep the interests of everyone at heart, not like any current government, which is only out for their own interests, and for people's votes, polluting the air with empty promises, phoney wars, Goldsteins and paranoia.

No, I'll admit my system might not be perfect right now. But, were it to be implemented, I'm sure you'd all fucking agree it's a damn sight better than what we're currently looking at. Hell, short of feudalism or despotism, I'm struggling to think of a system that isn't better than what we're currently looking at.

Edited by Comrade Jerkov, 06 March 2006 - 06:20 PM.

[Mastermind]

Whereas in my system, there is no "class". You can still be whoever you want to be, and you can still be prosperous. The difference is, everyone else is doing the same; being who they want to be and being prosperous.

And MM, you can hardly say that most will not turn you away because you don't have the money. Do you have any conception of how far in debt I'll be in three and a half years' time? All thanks to our government - Tory in all but name.

It's hardly fair for us who come from low incomes. Yes, we'll be able to get an education, but we'll also be up to our eyeballs. And I can't stand owing anybody anything, purely out of principle (neither a borrower nor a lender be). So basically, it leaves us all in the shit.

That's a problem of the schools then. I'm going to one of the best schools in the world for engineering, and yet I won't be much more in debt than those going to a state college or wherever they go. A school shouldn't turn away students on their ability to pay, nor should students leave intractably in debt. I agree that the existing system needs an overhaul, but I don't see communism as the way to overhaul it.

As for not wanting to borrow and such, that's a personal issue. You may end up in debt by a lot at the end of your education, but it's for a purpose. You will be able to get much better jobs, earn much more money, and ultimately be much better off in life. It's an investment, both of time, and money (which in this case is debt because you don't have the money), but one that should pay great dividends in the future.

Our healthcare system is turning private. The public NHS treats its patients like second-class citizens, with private treatment being about a thousand times better and quicker to get, but only after paying through the nose.

Hmmm, a left wing solution being inferior to the capitalist solution. Who would have thunk it?

Our lower-education (school) is the same. The rich bastards get infinitely better teaching. I actually came out with better grades in a subject I taught myself (Business Studies) than I did in a subject with the teacher I otherwise would have had (ICT).

Your education is what you make of it. I went through a public school, which isn't exactly the pinnacle of quality in the US, and yet I'm at one of the best schools in the world. If you are talented enough you can rise above your circumstances and make more of yourself.

How is any of this fair? Somebody fucking tell me how any of this is NOT pure greed, extortion and a way to absolutely destroy the poor? Somebody else tell me why so many do nothing?

No, I'll admit my system might not be perfect right now. But, were it to be implemented, I'm sure you'd all fucking agree it's a damn sight better than what we're currently looking at. Hell, short of feudalism or despotism, I'm struggling to think of a system that isn't better than what we're currently looking at.

Most of life isn't fair. I'll admit that many things are driven by greed, but that's a fundamental human capacity, and one that has always existed. A capitalistic society isn't perfect (none can be), but it appears to me to be damn sight better than a society where I'm forced to be economically equal with everyone, whether I am or not. I agree that we need to bring up the standards of the low end, but there will always be a low end. There has to be a low to be a high.

[Comrade Kal]

Do you really think the numbers of hard workers and the numbers of millionaires are about equal?

The problem isn't with the schools, it's with capitalism for allowing it to happen.

And I think you'll find "there has to be a low because of the high" more accurate. Let's face it, if you become a scientist, you're no more important to the people of the nation than a street-sweeper.

[Mastermind]

Do you really think the numbers of hard workers and the numbers of millionaires are about equal?

The problem isn't with the schools, it's with capitalism for allowing it to happen.

And I think you'll find "there has to be a low because of the high" more accurate. Let's face it, if you become a scientist, you're no more important to the people of the nation than a street-sweeper.

No, the number of hard workers and the millionaires aren't equal. There are many people who work hard at something with little chance of advance because it's safe. If you want to become a millionaire you have to take risks, and probably even work harder than the people who just keep at their job. You have to want to become more and better, and work hard at that to actually do it. Capitalism is all about your drive to succeed. You can easily sluff by, and get a nice job somewhere and live a decent life. But if you truly want to succeed you have to be prepared for a much harder road.

I disagree about your comment about scientists. Society may not directly recognize them, but they can easily make themselves rich through discoveries. It's just about looking in the right direction and finding the right thing. There are hundreds of biotechnology companies around MIT that make huge volumes of money, and they were mostly started by scientists. You can't blame society if you aren't willing to make the effort, take the risks, and have a chance at success.

[Allied General]

u see it all points to apathy, if people can't be arse why should they be treated the same?

u get what you sow

its just unfortunate u have to live in an western society to achieve a basic living requirements.


as a example look at smoking

its bad for you and expensive

but people continue to smoke

why?

because they are too weak-willed, apathetic to do anything about it.

Trying leads to success and advancement. It makes you the "strongest" and most likely to survive.

Edited by Allied General, 07 March 2006 - 12:17 AM.

[MSpencer]

Social Darwinism is like throwing up on someone. If you argue for it or are associated with it, you're disgusting.

[Hostile]

Do you really think the numbers of hard workers and the numbers of millionaires are about equal?

The problem isn't with the schools, it's with capitalism for allowing it to happen.

And I think you'll find "there has to be a low because of the high" more accurate. Let's face it, if you become a scientist, you're no more important to the people of the nation than a street-sweeper.

It's the same thing Tom and I agree on, there is not enough financial training in schools to prepare them to be millionaires.

Surelly a society that promotes the idea of getting a good education, than getting a good job, and then making someone else rich is foolish, yet that is what is taught here in our schools, and that is no differant than communism. Train the masses to work, while those who choose to stop chasing thier tail and decide to rise above it through smarts, not back breaking work.

I'm not saying back breaking work isnt the foundation for prosperity, but it's isn't the end of it either. People need to educate themselves on how business works, than jump in and do it. And don't tell me poor people can't cause they have no money. My grandmother and grandfater wore cardboard in thier shoes and both excelled and running thier own business later on.

We are not all created equal, some choose to fight, while others choose to lie in the muck and end up there at the end of thier days. Ultimately, we all die. But we can leave something to our posterity after. Comunism isn't the answer, education is. Not 2+2 but financial education...

The above highlighted text is the most foolish thing I've ever read by a smart individual...

[Allied General]

Social Darwinism is like throwing up on someone. If you argue for it or are associated with it, you're disgusting.

I'm not arguing for it or associating myself with it, its just an plain hard fact.

The best people in the world are the most ruthless.

Take off the caring glasses and face the fact that society is cruel and unforgiving.

[Ash]

Our healthcare system is turning private. The public NHS treats its patients like second-class citizens, with private treatment being about a thousand times better and quicker to get, but only after paying through the nose.

Hmmm, a left wing solution being inferior to the capitalist solution. Who would have thunk it?

Once more, you take my words out of context.

What used to be an excellent system has become fourth rate because of the move towards the right. Now a system that really should be there for everyone to receive the same benefit from is being phased out in favour of a right-wing solution. How is it fair that the system is neglected?

Now STOP twisting my words, PLEASE.

Most of life isn't fair. I'll admit that many things are driven by greed, but that's a fundamental human capacity, and one that has always existed. A capitalistic society isn't perfect (none can be), but it appears to me to be damn sight better than a society where I'm forced to be economically equal with everyone, whether I am or not. I agree that we need to bring up the standards of the low end, but there will always be a low end. There has to be a low to be a high.

Why does there need to be a high? If everyone's standard of living is excellent anyway, why do you care if there's a high or a low, if the low and high are equal?

It's the same thing Tom and I agree on, there is not enough financial training in schools to prepare them to be millionaires.

That's just it. Who needs to be a millionaire, or financial training, when everyone gets a share of it all?

Surelly a society that promotes the idea of getting a good education, than getting a good job, and then making someone else rich is foolish, yet that is what is taught here in our schools, and that is no differant than communism. Train the masses to work, while those who choose to stop chasing thier tail and decide to rise above it through smarts, not back breaking work.

No, it IS different than Communism. The way I've been explaining it should've appealed even to YOUR mind. You work, and your 'payment' is whatever you need. Everyone else does the same. You're still working for everyone else, but you're still working for yourself at precisely the same time. What's changed, except the way the wealth reaches you, and how much of it (an equal share, as opposed to a vastly inferior share to your boss)

I'm not saying back breaking work isnt the foundation for prosperity, but it's isn't the end of it either. People need to educate themselves on how business works, than jump in and do it. And don't tell me poor people can't cause they have no money. My grandmother and grandfater wore cardboard in thier shoes and both excelled and running thier own business later on.

Hostile, your idea of a business at present is renting property. All that crap you used to spiel equates to nothing more than: 'owning a big house and renting it out to somebody who will pay'. When you say it in English, it doesn't sound so high-and-mighty, does it?

The above highlighted text is the most foolish thing I've ever read by a smart individual...

Oh, I do hope you enjoy swimming in your own effluence when all the street cleaners go on strike for six months...

His point is a dumbed-down version of mine:

Organs work for the good of the whole organism. There is no jack-of-all-trades organism...even bacteria have organelles to allow them to function as individual cells. No one part of the bacterium or any other organism performs every single function.

There's a reason for this, in the same way a corporation isn't entirely made up of managers, corporate directors or factory-floor workers.

Yet no one group of people can successfully survive and operate without complete symbiosis with each other group.

Just as the carpenter is fucked without the lumberjack, the blacksmith fucked without the miner, the manager fucked without his factory-floor workers.

So why should any one of these people be better off than any other? They all need eachother. It's basic societal roles. The only difference is that our way levels the playing field, allows people to choose their own way, get educated to become better at it than they currently are, and all reap the rewards of each individual's labour.

.

[duke_Qa]

if a street cleaner was just as equal as a scientist in society, we would have still been running around with bows and arrows hunting cows.

not everyone can be a scientist, while everyone can be a streetcleaner. doesnt the scientist deserve a bit more credit that he is able to do something more advanced than cleaning a street?

personally that says more than enough to me about your perspective on the world. your cause might be noble, but im not going to dream about a system that wouldnt work with the current generation of humans. i would rather worry about making sure that the current system is not allowed to descent into abuse, as it seems to be in the states and in the western world generally.

[Comrade Kal]

not everyone can be a scientist, while everyone can be a streetcleaner. doesnt the scientist deserve a bit more credit that he is able to do something more advanced than cleaning a street?

It's not about that. If we took away all the scientists and we took away all the street cleaners you'd notice the loss of one group a lot more and a lot sooner. And I think anyone would prefer the job of a scientist to the job of a street cleaner. Yes, it's harder to train for, but it's cushier.

Edited by Kal, 07 March 2006 - 07:11 PM.

[duke_Qa]

i wouldnt claim that its easier to be a scientist. the amount of training and skills and constant pressure would be more than enough for alot of people to "slum it". i see that all the time in my friends, they don't care/find the energy for education, they are just looking for a easy way through life, either resigned from society or lacking self-disipline or/and dragged into alcoholism/other drugs...

if that is a direct cause of the socialist society we got or just general apathy i cannot say anything about, but both are possible answers.