68 replies to this topic

[R.E.V.O.R.A]

Nazis : pronounce it "Not-zis"

Here's a good football (soccer) club name for ya guys :

Nottingham Nazis/Notzis!

[Solinx]

All ideologies are dead, long live the centre right!

(...), bring back anarco-capitalism!

Its an ideology, trust me capitalism dosn't require a leadership it just naturally emergres from a free society.

Somehow I believe somebody should think more before they post

On the topic of nazis coming back...Small chance, but as others said before, the nazis were 'just' a group of facists. And you can be sure there will be more like them. Never underestimate the ignorance of the masses.

At the time Hitler came to power, he had the support of a large portion of the German population. It were the people who made Hitler's regime possible. Of course, things are more complicated, as things always are, but bottom line is that without the people, Hilter wouldn't have come to power.

Solinx

[chemical ali]

All ideologies are dead, long live the centre right!

(...), bring back anarco-capitalism!

Its an ideology, trust me capitalism dosn't require a leadership it just naturally emergres from a free society.

Somehow I believe somebody should think more before they post

On the topic of nazis coming back...Small chance, but as others said before, the nazis were 'just' a group of facists. And you can be sure there will be more like them. Never underestimate the ignorance of the masses.

At the time Hitler came to power, he had the support of a large portion of the German population. It were the people who made Hitler's regime possible. Of course, things are more complicated, as things always are, but bottom line is that without the people, Hilter wouldn't have come to power.

Solinx

The all ideologies are dead is a famous quote from the a 20th century political ideologist who after the fall of the Berlin wall said that the right had won in terms of politics.

So never question me again!

[Comrade Kal]

Anarchists haven't accomplished shit. They complain all the time about how screwed up the system is, yet they can't do anything about it.

I don't even think the system is that screwed up.

My dad is an electrician, and my mom is an elementary school teacher (neither of them are bourgeois capitalists), yet they own 3 houses, one of which is a 3000 square-foot house on ten acres of property in Canada's 4th most expensive region, and on top of that, they have a condo in Florida.

Neither of my parents had to oppress the working class to get where they are, because they themselves are the working class. Both of my grandparents were immigrants to Canada, and achieved no higher than the status of working class (my one grandpa was a construction worker and the other was an upholsterer) and they have also done very well financially.

In our society, as long as you try hard and don't sit on your ass and complain for you whole life, you can be successful, even if you are working class. (line workers at the General Motors plant near where I live make almost $60 000 per year, without an post secondary education).

I am still a moderate leftist, but I think people who think that its impossible to make it in this society are just lazy.

Even if that absurd statement (social mobility is very very low at the moment) were true, then you still compeltely gloss over the people who are being oppressed even more - the third world. By our companies.

[Cossack]

Of course, ill admit that devoloped nations' immense wealth is leached off of third world countries. Im just saying that I find that people who actual live in developped countries yet still complain and feel sorry for themsleves are just lazy.

It's perfectly fine to feel sorry for third world countries, but what I don't like is when people in developped countries feel sorry for themselves.

[chemical ali]

By our companies.

I wouldn't say that, if you want to keep a global free market its people like the EU that are destroying less economically developed countries.

Trade tarrifs are bad.

[Cossack]

Don't mistake me for being pro-corperation, because im not.

Although I do think that big corperations exploit and do harm to the third world, I just thought I'd point something out; It's not like the corperations are comming into third world countries, pointing guns to peoples heads and forcing them to work in sweatshops. These people are exploited because they let themselves be exploited, and if they wanted the big corperations out of there countries, they would go Che Guavera and kick their asses out.

[Comrade Kal]

Except their own, more authoritarian goverments would shoot them.

They basically do have a gun pointed to their heads because it's the only work available. It's either that or starve.

You're a complete fucking moron.

[chemical ali]

Its a free market world, to interfere would damage the economys of the world.

[MSpencer]

With true communism all over the world we'd really be stretched thin on resources. It is a known fact that the biosphere, by definition, cannot support all who are born. This is significantly affected by our technology, which slows down the attrition rate, but also decreases the general carrying capacity of the environment. Competition for natural resources is a deeply ingrained biological behavior which has been selected for in every multicellular organism, especially mammals. We all compete over resources, it is biologically a necessity to survive and pursue the furtherance of our species and our genes.
Capitalism is very directly a result of this process. The accumulation of assets to facilitate survival is certainly an impulse felt by nearly every reproductively successful organism on the planet, it is only natural that in a technologically advanced society that this behavior would evolve to fit the times. And competition generally greatly overrides any altruistic behavior patterns, meaning that it is in people's nature to be more selfish than giving or caring, thus, capitalism is generally a more fit ideology for humanity on a species level. Power and wealth do not corrupt, it is our nature forged by millions of years of evolution to accumulate these assets to better facilitate survival and reproductive success.

[duke_Qa]

so we got a dilemma: live with a system that can never be fair as the world would be drained for resources withing a short amount of time, or kill off a majority of the human population and let the remaining ones live in equality and harmony.

[Comrade Kal]

The latter is sounding quite attractive.

And you wouldn't kill that many people. Cause you could get more food and things in other ways. Like more organised farming in sub-saharan africa, autonomous collectives (remember, when you don't have the rich to feed, it's so much easier) and organic farming which gives higher yields.

[MSpencer]

The latter is sounding quite attractive.

And you wouldn't kill that many people. Cause you could get more food and things in other ways. Like more organised farming in sub-saharan africa, autonomous collectives (remember, when you don't have the rich to feed, it's so much easier) and organic farming which gives higher yields.

You'd have to kill off about half the population of the planet.
Or all the animals.

We all eat about the same amount of food in civilized countries. If we were to spread it out to third world countries or those undergoing a famine and equalize food rationing, the logistics would be impossible, and billions would die of starvation.

[duke_Qa]

hmm, i have a suspicion that it would not be the filthy rich that would be exterminated first... as a matter of fact i think it would be someone more with a lack of funds to get away from the reaper that would be the unlucky ones.

but its ironic that we are here discussing annihilation of half of humanity so that we can get our steaks the way we like them and live the lives we already live...

[MSpencer]

More like surviving with the status quo. For the quality of life around the world to be about average for all and near where the average is today, the population could not stay the same.

[duke_Qa]

indeed, but i cannot see how a politician can make a serious topic out of annihilating half the world population without causing his political suicide and pissing off the parts of the world that would be on the receiving end.


also, such a calamity would be a perfect scenario for someone to make alot of trouble. someone who wants to rule a country through fear and the likes etc. etc.

Edited by duke_Qa, 19 October 2006 - 11:02 PM.

[Tom]

Politicians can't do that because no one believes in ideologies anymore, or has any faith in them. People would rather live in ignorance. If people took their own responsibility for their own problems and also made sure they did not cause anyone else problems, then there would be no problems.

The problem is, humans are not like that at this particular time because they chose to worship false idols such as money and power. We create our own systems our own rules then say we are powerless to change that system and rules when we have just created it. Humans can be so ignorant and stupid.

[Comrade Kal]

Politicians can't do that because no one believes in ideologies anymore, or has any faith in them. People would rather live in ignorance. If people took their own responsibility for their own problems and also made sure they did not cause anyone else problems, then there would be no problems.

The problem is, humans are not like that at this particular time because they chose to worship false idols such as money and power. We create our own systems our own rules then say we are powerless to change that system and rules when we have just created it. Humans can be so ignorant and stupid.

Aren't you the one always going on about ideologies being rubbish? You know, it's no wonder you don't want a thread where we all post our core beliefs, because you don't fucking have any. All I've seen you do is attack absolutely EVERY idea ever as being an instrument of the elite without providing a single alternative or original idea yourself. As well as taking absolutely ANYONE on who'll side with you.

[Blodo]

Competition for natural resources is a deeply ingrained biological behavior which has been selected for in every multicellular organism, especially mammals. We all compete over resources, it is biologically a necessity to survive and pursue the furtherance of our species and our genes.
Capitalism is very directly a result of this process.

Taking this theory further if we don't change from capitalism to a something else - all we are going to be is more selfish, more greedy and more malevolent than ever. It's basically evolution like you said. I don't know about you but I don't think that would fare well for the rest of mankind. Eventually we will reach a grim world where millions of people are subdued by technocratic elites.

Russian communism was the enemy because regardless of how it looked, the Russians made a difference. The stock market didn't affect them, capitalism had no power there, everyone was working with an idea of a better future in mind. How it worked was far from perfect, but then again it only had like 40 years.

[Tom]

Politicians can't do that because no one believes in ideologies anymore, or has any faith in them. People would rather live in ignorance. If people took their own responsibility for their own problems and also made sure they did not cause anyone else problems, then there would be no problems.

The problem is, humans are not like that at this particular time because they chose to worship false idols such as money and power. We create our own systems our own rules then say we are powerless to change that system and rules when we have just created it. Humans can be so ignorant and stupid.

Aren't you the one always going on about ideologies being rubbish? You know, it's no wonder you don't want a thread where we all post our core beliefs, because you don't fucking have any. All I've seen you do is attack absolutely EVERY idea ever as being an instrument of the elite without providing a single alternative or original idea yourself. As well as taking absolutely ANYONE on who'll side with you.

I've never stated i was against such a topic.

This argument is ridiculous Kal, you want me to post my beliefs, why? You already know them.

As well as your argument that anarchism is the only way to freedom is ridiculous. By following such a path you state you are helping to take down the system, its actually going to have the reverse effect. These people will use anything they can to prove their point and brainwash the masses more. Causing anarchy this precise moment will only result in riots and violence in attempt to take down such a system. This will only cause fear. This is what makes these people powerful, fear. The media would soon be running things like: "look, look at this, terrible youths causing riots. Give us your rights and we can save you!"

The problem you say you can solve, you are as much of a part of as me. Regardless of your argument that you know best. The reason i try not to lead people is because i do not know best, i know i do not know best. I can see most black, i can see most white, but i cannot see and divide every single grey or unknown that exists. I cannot pretend i know every single consequence of my actions and neither can you. Rash actions only create more rash actions by others. Those that have had centuries to plan out their ideas can put them in action and create what they want. Why? Because they've thought it through, planned it in steps and phases and also have the power and constructed movement to get there will done. An opposing constructed movement is not "bring down the government and then let everyone run wild." People are not used to this and this is why it would fail at this moment. Humanity is not evolved enough to live in such a system.

Its like when Lenin "skipped" capitalism to bring in communism from the Marxist ideology. The people of russia had no idea, were not wise enough or eductated enough to understand it because they never experienced it. Also eliminating the educated part of society is stupid, whilst it may stop a capitalist revolution is only leaves those who have no ideas. This is why Lenins idea failed and gave Stalin the opportunity to slowly eliminate the other "candidates" for power and exploit the idea for himself so easily.

I don't understand what your expecting. Yes a revolution has to come but the system to replace it has to be decided as the people by a whole, not by induviduals. That is exactly why the world is so fucked up today because we let induviduals decide for us. People are like children, they do not want such responsibility, they want others to do it all for them. Others will only exploit this power.

You want me to stand up and say "right this is what we are going to do people." What do you expect? A bunch of ignorant twats to laugh and scoff at you and ignore you completely. Why do you think nothing ever becomes of the real movements? Kal i only have the power of my own induviduality. I do not have the power to change people, they can only do it themselves. My idea of life is to go with the flow, not the flow of ignorant sheep, but go wherever life takes me, make the decisions that are important for me there and then. At the moment the time is not right to be expecting a mass movement because people in our countries have not witnessed the truth. You can expose the truth, hand it to them on a plate, but if you do that how are people to LEARN. You can't learn unless you experience it yourself. You can pretend you know, but you can't know until you discover it yourself. Is pretending that you know good enough for you? I might seem so confident when i come to arguing about the "elite" and the "illuminati" whatever anyone wants to call them, but it still does not mean I have the wisdom or knowledge to be leading people though the darkness and into the light. People can only do that themselves. Its called free will.

If you want what i believe as a solution Kal, i'll tell you but I know you won't agree, because you believe in radical and rash action rather than developing a new system with respect and thoughtfullness.

I believe Britain needs a revolution. I believe the new system should be created with a constitution, like America, but i also believe that we need to decentralise as much as we can and bring democracy down to either county or community levels so it is REAL democracy not dominated by groups of people by led by the people within those areas. The constitution is to keep the system in place for the time its needed and also so everyone knows of their rights, responsibilities and duties as a citizen of that system. If people were educated enough about their responsibilities to themselves, to their community and to their country then there would be less conflict. People should also not try to destroy other peoples cultures or ideas to replace it with their own because they think its better.

all we are going to be is more selfish, more greedy and more malevolent than ever.

You can't go too far because it only causes self destruction. This is what is happening today. The crumbling of our societies slowly and willfully. Thats why humanity/natural naturally renews itself in cycles. Because when something becomes to corrupt it destroys itself and what is left to remain makes the new world. The ego can only go so far, but in only thinking about itself it disrupts the natural balance and therefore will be destroyed by it.